"Islam is violent! Just read the Koran to see for yourself!"

[Bronx Warlord]

I would say Jesus and his father are/is closer to the acts of Hitler than any one else. They were happy to commit genocide against innocent people, kill kids newly born, and wipe out almost all humanity under water. How can you worship such a family of murderers and claim you are following a religion of peace?

So your obviously not so much of an athiest then. Since you just stated you belive in Jesus and " his father " and belive they comitted these acts.

 

[CurtSibling]

Religions are as violent or non-violent as the persons who interpret the dogma.

Holy doctrine is very much open to 'creative' discernment.

...

 

[Bronx Warlord]

Religions are as violent or non-violent as the persons who interpret the dogma.

Holy doctrine is very much open to 'creative' discernment.

...

Curt... there is a big invisible guy in the sky. He is watching you all the time! He has ten or so laws and if you break them your going to hell and are going to be tortured and burned for all eternity... but... HE LOVES YOU!

 

[CurtSibling]

Curt... there is a big invisible guy in the sky. He is watching you all the time! He has ten or so laws and if you break them your going to hell and are going to be tortured and burned for all eternity... but... HE LOVES YOU!

Really? How fascinating!

I also should mention that invisible lizards are playing chess behind trans-dimensional walls in your refrigerator.

Not to mention talking cockroaches, alien Greys and Lord Lucan.

 

[skadistic]

Really? How fascinating!

I also should mention that invisible lizards are playing chess behind trans-dimensional walls in your refrigerator.

Not to mention talking cockroaches, alien Greys and Lord Lucan.

The gray aliens are real though.

 

[Smidlee]

I would say Jesus and his father are/is closer to the acts of Hitler than any one else. They were happy to commit genocide against innocent people, kill kids newly born, and wipe out almost all humanity under water. How can you worship such a family of murderers and claim you are following a religion of peace?

Are you trying to claim Hitler is God or a god which can give life as well as take it? The saying "Don't take the law into your own hands" surely doesn't imply that the law is evil and shouldn't be enforced by someone. IF God who is the creator isn't worthy to judge I would say no man is worthy. I surely don't see Muhammad as worthy who was nothing but a warlord.

 

[CurtSibling]

The gray aliens are real though.

Only if you agree that invisible reptiles are real too!

 

[Princeps]

In Europe, as far as I can say, organized religion was created by state systems to promote the growth of irrational attidutes of submission to authority, or basically irrational group-mentality. Just to get the people off the opulent people's necks, to make them believe some nonsense and say that "WE are christians, we need to stick together and rally behind the King (who takes orders from God)". Just like mass education was promoted to make people into passive tools of production and make them stop asking inconvenient questions.

Islam was quite different early on. While, Arab empires were spread violently, like all empires are, Islam itself wasn't spread violently. Early on, in the areas where Arab Empires had spread, Islam was the religion of the ruling classes and their associates, and these established Muslims tried to actively stop people from converting to Islam, because Muslims could not be taxed as heavily as dhimmis could and therefore large Muslim populations were not desirable due to revenue issues.

 

[CurtSibling]

Interesting post, Princeps!

...

 

[Traitorfish]

I can accept that. Unfortunately, after elevating women's rights, it then brought the process to screeching halt by adding unnecessary and harmful restrictions on womens' rights.

No more than most other cultures at the time.

 

[Bad Player]

Have you got good (e.g. primary) sources to back that up Princeps?

 

[BaneBlade]

Have you got good (e.g. primary) sources to back that up Princeps?

How about taking the completely off-topic discussion elsewhere?
This thread isn't "I'm atheist, you crazy believers" neither is it about religious genesis theories.
Relate to the original topic, please.

 

[Bad Player]

Islam was quite different early on. While, Arab empires spread violently, like all empires are, Islam itself wasn't spread violently. Early on, in the areas where Arab Empires had spread, Islam was the religion of the ruling classes and their associates, and these established Muslims tried to actively stop people from converting to Islam, because Muslims could not be taxed as heavily as dhimmis could and therefore large Muslim populations were not desirable due to revenue issues.

Have you got good (e.g. primary) sources to back that up Princeps?

How about taking the completely off-topic discussion elsewhere?
This thread isn't "I'm atheist, you crazy believers" neither is it about religious genesis theories.
Relate to the original topic, please.

I asked for e.g. primary sources to back up Princeps' assertion that Islam is not violent but rather the violence was due to Arab empires and their political issues.

This thread is about whether Islam is inherently violent.

I think this is highly pertinent. Do any moderators object?

 

[HannibalBarka]

Are you trying to claim Hitler is God or a god which can give life as well as take it? The saying "Don't take the law into your own hands" surely doesn't imply that the law is evil and shouldn't be enforced by someone. IF God who is the creator isn't worthy to judge I would say no man is worthy. I surely don't see Muhammad as worthy who was nothing but a warlord.

God is the creator according to you, and Jesus is his son according to you, you don't have problems worshiping a mass murderer while you blame Islam because of its violence. The violence in Islam is coming from God also (well that's what Muslim believe), so if we follow your logic, it is as justified as the genocides committed by The Lord and His Son.
See ?

 

[Smidlee]

In Europe, as far as I can say, organized religion was created by state systems to promote the growth of irrational attidutes of submission to authority, or basically irrational group-mentality. Just to get the people off the opulent people's necks, to make them believe some nonsense and say that "WE are christians, we need to stick together and rally behind the King (who takes orders from God)". Just like mass education was promoted to make people into passive tools of production and make them stop asking inconvenient questions.

The kings often did the exact opposite of what the prophets/scriptures preached. Often this cost the prophet(believer) his life. As many Christians loses their lives by standing against the political church because they valued the scriptures more than the king's word. (even in England up to the 17th century Baptist were burn to the stake for preaching against the false doctrine of the "state churches". The last Baptist preacher was burned in 1612 when King James finally put an end to it. The preachers grandson came to America which were still colonies and started the Baptist churches which eventually spread big time in the South)
So while I agree with you that organized religion was designed to control including Christians yet the "State Church" was never "The church" like they love to claim. There were always the few (just like the OT) who remain true even when their lives were in danger.

 

[aronnax]

I can accept that. Unfortunately, after elevating women's rights, it then brought the process to screeching halt by adding unnecessary and harmful restrictions on womens' rights.

I think it is the countries culture that did that not Islam. Either way, at least the Quran elevated women's right for a while unlike some other book......

What did he do with Banu Qurayza?
Also, I recall a female poet killed with his blessing, and another reknown poet that was chased for writing bad about him and had to be write a praise of him to save his life. The poem's title is "burkah"



what was A'isha's age when they did it?

The Banu Qurayza were traitors. Long before that, a pact was made that everyone in Medina, no matter of what religion, was to help protect Medina from foriegn attack. The Jews however, turned on the community and helped the Meccans.

Even if massacre was too harsh a punishment, keep in mine that was 1300 years and the punishment for treason then for any country was death.

About A'isha bit. This should solve any agrument

The age of Aisha is of particular concern to non-Muslims, who denounce Muhammad for having sexual relations with a girl so young. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has called Muhammad a "pervert" for marrying a girl as young as six. Jerry Vines has called Muhammad a "pedophile".[16] Colin Turner, a professor of Persian language and Islamic history, however states that Muhammad's marriage in its context was not in the least improper. Such marriages between an older man and a young girl were customary among Bedouins as they still are in many societies across the world. Coulin further writes that Arabs in the seventh century tended to reach adulthood at an earlier age than Westerners today.[17]

There is considerable debate among Muslim scholars over Aisha's age at marriage. Maulana Muhammad Ali makes a detailed historical argument that Aisha could not have been more than nine or ten at the time of betrothal, and fifteen at marriage.[18] Others fix her age at consummation as late as nineteen.

So we have no idea when he had sex with her. If she did it at 9, well then take in concern it was normal for them back then.

 

[Bill3000]

Let the market decide as to what is the one true religion.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Let the market decide as to what is the one true religion.

After taking a look to Shanghai stock, I bid 1million on Buddism, I'm short on Hinduism, and I offer 2 million for JC since the Dow is up

 

[HannibalBarka]

So your obviously not so much of an athiest then. Since you just stated you belive in Jesus and " his father " and belive they comitted these acts.

Well his father was Joseph, wasn't he? or was it the postman?

 

[Erik Mesoy]

In Europe, as far as I can say, organized religion was created by state systems

What are you smoking?

Try replacing "created" with "abused" or "subverted".