Israel continues operation in Gaza - Thread II

[LordRahl]

They had a good line going in education and healthcare for Palestinians IIRC. Before they became the democratically elected government and aid to Palestine was cut off I mean.

This has got to be the funniest quote I've seen so far coming from a Hamas apologizer. They had a good line going in education???!

Are you serious? Before answering (and further embarrassing yourself) check out the following websites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv-hamas.htm
http://pmw.org.il/Bulletins_Jul2007.htm

It is that institutional brainwashing that's largely responsible for the endless cycle of violence in the Middle East. Hamas is raising the next generation of murderers, while we stand by and watch. Sadly - judging from some posts - Westerners seem just as prone to Hamas propaganda as those kids.

 

[Maimonides]

Why does "asymetrical warfare" keep being brought up in these Middle East threads? Anyone conducting symetrical warfare is doing something very, very wrong. War is about defeating an enemy & you don't do that by waiting until he has as many weapons & troops as you do. The term "asymetrical warfare" is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

Dude, what are you? A muppet?...Now go away and play with Fozzie, Animal and Kermit.

Please don't insult the Muppets. If they were there, Animal would be leading the IDF in while screaming "eat rockets, eat rockets," Kermit would be singing a sentimental song & Fozzie would be trying to raise spirits in a bomb shelter by telling bad jokes. Miss Piggy would have been turned away at customs.

Some of my best friends are Muppets.

...the slaughter of civilians on both sides is appalling, and this conflict should be stopped through peaceful means. (And I do not mean killing everyone on one side of the negotiations table)

Everybody who is not an extremist nutjob agrees with that. The problem is finding a way to do it. If you know the answer, you're the 1st who does & a Nobel prize will be coming your way.

In other news: water is wet.

 

[eastsidebagel]

It is that institutional brainwashing that's largely responsible for the endless cycle of violence in the Middle East. Hamas is raising the next generation of murderers, while we stand by and watch. Sadly - judging from some posts - Westerners seem just as prone to Hamas propaganda as those kids.

It' s easy to make Israel looking bad in the conflict. Many westerners just cannot understand that a genuine invasion by the IDF is the sole way to solve the suffering for the people of the both sides. But that's not due the Hamas propaganda itself but rather from misinformations, half-truths and the lack of imagining yourself into the positions of others. There is a constant mortal peril hanging above the residents of Southern Israel and this going on now for years. Livin' under those circumstances ain't fun, guys. Many people see now that Israel's government is now finally reacting to the uncountable pleads of them.

 

[Princeps]

i think this is a good video: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HNKIEGzQOtw

 

[MobBoss]

Ok, I'll explain better this part of the comment only: as I mentioned, choice between lesser evils. Just because a war had the "lesser evil" outcome it doesn't mean that any of the sides was doing "good things" to the other side(s). Quite the opposite, they were trying to terrorize them into accepting some disadvantageous political settlement. That's how way war must work, and an important thing to keep in mind before jumping into one. Regarding your examples, the allies firebombed cities during WW2, and the defeated didn't quite get VIP treatment (apart from some useful scientists and politicians, that is...), and the Union had an army do a famous march destroying what they found in their way...

Terrorism does not cease being terrorism just because it is state terrorism.

I think your understanding of terrorism is flawed. Just because war contains 'terror' with its carnage and destruction, this doesnt mean that its teh same as 'terror-ism'.

Example: Shermans march to the sea had more than just a terrorist act. Its primary mission was to undercut the enemies support base by attacking a largely undefended portion of their supply. Sherman burning the farms along the way wasnt just terrorism....it was removing a food source of supply from the army. As it was an attack in the rear areas it also opened up additional fronts which the confederates couldnt ignore.

Part of Shermans own personal agenda was to make the war so unpalatable to the South as to break their will to fight it. While on its face this may look like terrorism, its actually not, because it was secondary to what the expeditions actual strategic military purpose was. The fear he created was the fear of war....not the fear of an unpredictable 'terror' attack. Those in the South absolutely knew he was coming and knew what he was doing along the way. Neither of those are elements of terrorism.

Again, dont confuse the fear of war with the fear that terrorism illicites. Its not exactly the same thing, nor is the overal goal the same.

 

[MobBoss]

Why does "asymetrical warfare" keep being brought up in these Middle East threads? Anyone conducting symetrical warfare is doing something very, very wrong.

Oh my.

Methinks someone has absolutely shown their ignorance here.

War is about defeating an enemy & you don't do that by waiting until he has as many weapons & troops as you do. The term "asymetrical warfare" is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

Its only dumb to you because you have no idea wth it is.

Neither do you know what its opposite is.

Please don't insult the Muppets.

Do you just realize you just pwned yourself with that comment?

If I call you a muppet....and you say dont insult the muppets...that means its an insult to muppets to call you one.

Sorry, but I felt I really had to explain that so you could understand. Let me know if you didnt get it.

Some of my best friends are Muppets.

You know....I absolutely believe you.

 

[RalofTyr]

It' s easy to make Israel looking bad in the conflict. Many westerners just cannot understand that a genuine invasion by the IDF is the sole way to solve the suffering for the people of the both sides. But that's not due the Hamas propaganda itself but rather from misinformations, half-truths and the lack of imagining yourself into the positions of others. There is a constant mortal peril hanging above the residents of Southern Israel and this going on now for years. Livin' under those circumstances ain't fun, guys. Many people see now that Israel's government is now finally reacting to the uncountable pleads of them.

Israel's pretty good at making themselves look bad on their own. I understand. Israel had to burn down the village to save it.

Putting yourself in other's shoes? I thank God I'm not a Palestinian. Living in utter squalid over crowded conditions with no real prospects of a future that isn't poverty. You should be thankful you're not a Palestinian too. A second class citizen in your own homeland.

 

[Ecofarm]

If you elect Hamas, you deserve to be a second class citizen.

 

[eastsidebagel]

Israel's pretty good at making themselves look bad on their own. I understand. Israel had to burn down the village to save it.

Putting yourself in other's shoes? I thank God I'm not a Palestinian. Living in utter squalid over crowded conditions with no real prospects of a future that isn't poverty. You should be thankful you're not a Palestinian too. A second class citizen in your own homeland.

THX for replying to my post! Boy, you're right on this one! Being a second class citizen, especially in your own homeland is not enjoyable. But think about it quite a bit! Wouldn't it be awesome if Israel didn't have no reasons for doing this? Now, I'm not trying to persuade you to defend Israel's case but there must be a damn reason for those things to happen. I surely know that Israel never rejected a peace treaty when she saw it revolved around a bilateral commitment to actually stop warmongering. But sadly, dealing with Hamas or any other group of fanatics is nothing like this. It's usually just a spare time for the agressors to strenghten and rearm themselve to just being the next more sucessfull and eventually deadly and damaging at the expenses of innocent people just wanting to lead a normal life. Every war in Israel's younger history revolved around surviving as a nation and not to expand her territory. I'm not making this up, but every war in the Middle East was started and planned by the Arabs and/or Palaestinians. If you want to start senseless wars, you gotta expect some damage on your side too.

 

[Mallipeep]

While i support Israel on this war, i have to disagree with the people saying "they elected Hamas, so i dont care about their lives".

The people didnt grow up in a democratic state, dont have good education nor isnt their life quality too good. People are not born violent hamas-supporters, they are raised this way - and so if possible one should avoid injuring them.

Since Hamas cannot be reasoned with and plays dirty by putting civilian lifes on the line there is just no way of avoiding civilian casualties.

 

[Ecofarm]

I didn't say I didn't care about their lives. I said they deserve to be second-class citizens.

----

The UN passed a resolution for cease-fire. The US did not veto (it abstained). 14-0

 

[Princeps]

I didn't say I didn't care about their lives. I said they deserve to be second-class citizens.

If second-classness is the condition they live in, you sure as damn don't care about them at all.

 

[Ecofarm]

Why is it so important to you that I not care about them?

I care about them, ok?

But they suck and they treat their children like dogs. I'd be more concerned with how they treat their children (disgusting) than how Israel treats them (fairly), if I were you.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Look man, no offense, but your logic is kinda flawed: I stated that war is always cruel and is virtually everytime displaying the worst traits of human nature and I think that my statement is non-doubted throughtout all kinds of intelligent people. But for some reasons people have to fight. If a souvereign nation like Israel is constantly attacked by guerilla groups and if that attacking on innocent civilians goes on for, like, years, than IMO it has every to right to get rid off the agressors. In WW2 German cities got bombed by which hundresds of thousands died, civilian as actual soldiers, but I wouldn't consider those attacks as evil. The true evil was Hitler for starting this goddamn war in the first place. He caused the death of his own people by declaring war on the US and Britian. He bombed the . .. .. .. . out of London and the nearby country. He attacked first and so Britian got drawn in a war it didn't seek. The continous bombing was just to bring down Hitler's regime and to arrest those real evildoers in order to free the Germans. The Allies tried to force Germany to end the war as fast as possible, but only the stubbornness of Hitler refusing to give up made the German folks suffer.

I repeat it again, comparing the current conflict with WW2 does not make any sense. There are absolutly no equivalence between the number of people involved, in WWII, many millions of soldiers were fighting and hundreds of millions of civilians were involved. How many people were killed by the Katioucha in the last 5 years? how many israeli were killed in the whole bloody conflict in the last 10 years?

So too the Civil War which ended the enslaving and humiliating of an entire race of people for those who lived then and also for the generations to come. That's a just and I dare to call it "good" reason to wage war against guys who are a disgrace to humanity (yes, every man who treats his fellowmen different 'cause of their skin color or ancestry is an . .. .. .. .. .. .. . in my book)

Well that is exactly why I consider the killing of tens of civilians to get one terrorist hiding among them criminal and immoral !!!! The IDF did that when they bombed the UN school and they did it many times before. Not that they are the only one doing it that way, many armies act the same way but only when the civilians involved aren't theirs, they treat them differnent because of their skin color or ancestry as you said.

 

[Verbose]

But they suck and they treat their children like dogs. I'd be more concerned with how they treat their children (disgusting) than how Israel treats them (fairly), if I were you.

You refer to this as if some klind of idyllic bourgeois western ideal of Happy Families (Daddy, Mummy and the Kids) was even applicable here.

 

[HannibalBarka]

This has got to be the funniest quote I've seen so far coming from a Hamas apologizer. They had a good line going in education???!
.......
It is that institutional brainwashing that's largely responsible for the endless cycle of violence in the Middle East. Hamas is raising the next generation of murderers, while we stand by and watch. Sadly - judging from some posts - Westerners seem just as prone to Hamas propaganda as those kids.

Teaching hate is not onesided you know, many Israeli are also "raising the next generation of murderers" wile you are standing, watching and apologysing the killing of kids.

Yeshiva teachers incite W. Bank teens to violence
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005619.html

Teaching Israeli Children to Hate Palestinians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mO8CWSam2o

Racist Jewish Settlers Stone Elderly Women: kids stoning an old women, they must have been toght love by their parents!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTG073vDc7g&feature=related

 

[Ecofarm]

You refer to this as if some klind of idyllic bourgeois western ideal of Happy Families (Daddy, Mummy and the Kids) was even applicable here.

No, I'm not asking for ideal. I just think that using their kids as meat shields so that they can kill other children and try to get away with it is... well... substandard.

 

[Verbose]

No, I'm not asking for ideal. I just think that using their kids as meat shields so that they can kill other children and try to get away with it is... well... substandard.

With 50% of the population under 18, what makes you think "parents" matter even?

 

[Ecofarm]

Is Israel gonna observe the UN cease-fire passed last night?

It's 12:45pm there.

I'm guessing a Hamas rocket has already voided it.

 

[Pannonius]

Is Israel gonna observe the UN cease-fire passed last night?

It's 12:45pm there.

I'm guessing a Hamas rocket has already voided it.

I don't think so...