Israel continues operation in Gaza - Thread II

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Palestinian civilian casualties in Gaza need to be understood in the context of Hamas' ideology, which celebrates the use of noncombatants to shield its fighters from Israeli retaliation. In February, a Hamas representative in the Palestinian Authority Legislative Council expressed pride in the fact that women and children are used as human shields in fighting Israel. He explained that the Palestinians "desire death" with the same intensity that Israelis "desire life," according to a translation by Palestinian Media Watch.

Last week Hamas Television announced that most of the Palestinians dying were members of its armed forces. The Israeli YNet news service quoted Palestinian civilians saying that Hamas members prevent them from fleeing their homes and hide out in UNRWA ambulances, mosques and civilian homes and stairwells.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/08/hamas-palestinian-victims/

(editorial)

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All this week, they KNEW that fire would be returned to the rocket sites. There was no doubt about this, especially after the first 20 rockets of the day received return fire. BUT THEY STILL DID IT.

Case closed.

They knew return fire was coming - no doubt - and they did it anyway.
 
Eco, I dont deny that Hamas use human shields, as does Israel. What I'm asking you to back up is your claim that Hamas rushes children, specifically, to launch sites to be killed for propaganda purposes after a launch. If you cant find anyhting to back up that specific claim, just admit it.
 
Israel also herds Palestinian civilians to places to be butchered:

BBC

Israeli forces shelled a house in the Gaza Strip which they had moved around 110 Palestinians into 24 hours earlier, the UN quotes witnesses as saying.

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) called it "one of the gravest incidents" since the beginning of the offensive.

The shelling at Zeitoun, a south-east suburb of Gaza City, on 5 January killed some 30 people, the report said.

Israel said the allegations were being investigated.

"According to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitoun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors," the OCHA report said.

"Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30."

The UN said those who survived and were able walked 2km to the main north-south road to be transported to hospital in civilian vehicles.

"Three children, the youngest of whom was five months old, died upon arrival at the hospital," the report said.

'No safe haven'

Allegra Pacheco, of OCHA in Jerusalem, said they were not accusing the Israelis of a deliberate act, but said the incident needed to be investigated.

She also said they were concerned at claims by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) that ambulances were only allowed access to the neighbourhood on Thursday - four days after the alleged incident.

The ICRC on Thursday accused Israel of failing to fulfil its duty to help wounded civilians in Gaza.

"In Gaza, there is a severe protection of civilians crisis. There is no safe haven, no safe space, for all the civilians, particularly children," Ms Pacheco told the BBC.

"Since the ground operation, the number of children killed has risen by 250%."

An estimated 770 Palestinians and 14 Israelis have died in nearly two weeks of Israel's air and ground offensive against the Palestinian militant group Hamas.

The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza.
 
Whether it is an ambush or a rocket attack, a bunch of kids are gonna die.

Same number of dead kids, +/- dead IDF (and the psychological damage done to those soldiers).

What makes you think it's going to be the same? Do IDF troops kill every kid they can find if ambushed?
 
In order to avoid civilian casualties, Israel sends warning messages before attacking terrorist targets advising civilians to leave. Israel prefers to attack empty buildings used to manufacture rockets, even taking into consideration that the terrorists too will be warned and their lives spared.

Hamas, on the other hand, calls on civilians to come and to protect with their bodies the precise locations they expect Israel to attack. Since they know that Israel will usually strike from the air, they send the children to the roofs to prevent the air force from targeting that building.

During the course of the Israeli operation against terrorists in the Gaza Strip (March 2008), Hamas repeatedly called upon Palestinian civilians to gather near buildings where they feared that the IDF was about to launch air-strikes against Hamas targets hidden within. The purpose of the civilian presence was to have them serve as human shields, exploiting the fact that the IDF avoids harming Palestinian civilians, even if it means aborting attacks on crucial terrorist infrastructure targets.

The following are but a few of the documented examples of calls in the Hamas controlled Gaza media for Palestinians civilians to serve as human shields:

1) Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV called upon children to form a human shield at the home of Abu al-Hatal of the a-Shouqaf quarter of Sajaiyeh in order to protect the building from an anticipated IDF airstrike (March 1).
View clip

2) Al-Aqsa TV News broadcast a story about how a crowd of civilians gathered on the roof of Abu Bilal al-Ja’abeer in the Northern Gaza strip, in order cause the IDF to abort a threatened airstrike against the structure.
View clip

3) Al-Aqsa TV called upon the Palestinians in the northern Gaza Strip to go to the house of Othman al-Ruziana in order to protect it against an anticipated IDF strike (February 29).

4) Al-Aqsa TV called upon the residents of Khan Yunis to gather at the house of Ma’amoun Abu ‘Amer due to an anticipated airstrike. (February 28). An hour later dozens of Palestinians from Khan Yunis were reported to have gathered on the roof of Abu ‘Amer’s house to serve as human shields to prevent the house from being hit (Pal-today Website, February 28).

5) Excerpts from a speech by Hamas MP Fathi Hammad, broadcast on Al-Aqsa TV on February 29, 2008:
Fathi Hammad: [The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism...+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm

Now, you can pretend that it is purely preventative, but we both know that they do it knowing full well that a strike is coming - to increase civilian casualities when they know damn well the strike WILL come.

That link gives documented examples of kids being used under various circumstances.
What makes you think it's going to be the same? Do IDF troops kill every kid they can find if ambushed?
Look at the videos. Hamas uses dozens of children to shield ambushes.

Of course the IDF does not want to kill children. What kind of an insane accusation is that?

@RRW: Isolated incidents could be military errors or falsehoods. Hamas does what they do all the time, there is no chance for it to be accidental or false reporting.
 
As I noted above, that is an isolated incident. It could be a military error or false reporting.

The hundreds of cases of Hamas targetting children and using them to boost casualities are beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 
From CNN

A U.N. agency is demanding Israel back up its claims that Hamas was firing on Israeli forces from a U.N. school compound in northern Gaza, forcing Israeli artillery to shell the area and kill more than 40 Palestinian civilians.


A Palestinian man carries a wounded girl into a Gaza City hospital.

1 of 2 more photos » "We have nothing to hide," U.N. Relief and Works Agency spokesman Chris Gunness said. "Bring it on. We want to see the evidence, we want to clear any suspicion."

Gunness, whose agency runs several schools in Gaza, spoke about Tuesday's incident in Jabalya in a joint CNN interview with Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor, which at times became quite heated.

Palmor told CNN's Finnouala Sweeney that Israel "know(s) for a fact that a Hamas squad was firing mortar shells from the immediate vicinity of the school, from the school grounds."

"The IDF (Israel Defense Forces) responded to that fire, and the tragic result was what we all know." 'No safe haven' in Gaza, U.N. official says »

Gunness objected to that point, and asked Palmor to "be clear."

"Yigal, I've got to nail you on this -- were they in an UNRWA compound or not? If they were, then you can say to people, 'Well they were there.' If they weren't, let's be clear about it, be honest, be open."

Palmor clarified that "the immediate vicinity" meant "right next to the wall." But, he added, "What wall exactly I'm not in a position to say now." Watch the IDF claim Hamas is using human shields »

The Israeli military said Tuesday that Hamas militants were firing mortars from the U.N. school in Jabalya that was being used as a shelter by hundreds of civilians. It said a pair of prominent Hamas operatives -- Imad Abu Askhar and Hassan Abu Askhar -- were inside the school.

Those operatives, described as heads of Hamas mortar-firing operations, were killed in the strike, the Israel Defense Forces said.

Also on Tuesday, an artillery shell struck inside a second U.N. school in the same town, but the boys' prep school was empty at the time, UNRWA director John Ging said.

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Both incidents in Jabalya came a day after an Israeli airstrike killed three men at a U.N. school in Gaza City. UNRWA maintains that all U.N. buildings in Gaza are clearly marked with U.N. flags, and said the agency had given Israeli authorities the satellite positions of all of its schools before the fighting started.

Gunness said based on UNRWA's investigation, the agency is "99.9 percent certain" there were no Palestinian militants in or on the grounds of the school that was sheltering civilians when it was shelled by Israeli forces.

Palmor said Israel cannot present the evidence supporting its side because "the army's still inside Gaza fighting." He would not commit to an impartial inquiry on the matter -- which UNRWA has called for -- because Israel could not be certain that it would be credible.

The Israeli spokesman noted that a U.N. inquiry into a 2007 incident in which militants came into a U.N. compound and fired on Israeli forces has still not been fully investigated.

"How can we be sure that a new investigation will be credibly held by the same people?" Palmor asked.


But Gunness said an impartial investigation conducted by the U.N. would be the only way to clarify what happened.

"If there's any doubt, can anyone come forward (and) give us the evidence?" Gunness demanded. "The Israeli army is circulating ancient pictures, which allegedly show militants using our compound. It's an old set of pictures to show a new case. It doesn't work


Hmm.... now who do you expect to kill when you target a school? the isolated incidents are beginning to pile up, eh?
 
Piling up?

Israel: 1 (the school incident was legit)
Hamas: hundreds

There is definately doubt as to Israel targetting children, as we have a couple of isolated incidents that could be error or false reporting. There is no doubt that Hamas uses children to increase casualities.

Anyway, why not leave aside the (2) wild and unsubstanciated claims regarding Israel for the moment and address the problem that is Hamas (for whom there is no question regarding intent)?

No... you're just going to tout those 2 incidents as equivalency... aren't you?
 
Do you deny that Hamas intentionally increases casualities by using children?
 
Piling up?

Israel: 1 (the school incident was legit)
Hamas: hundreds

There is definately doubt as to Israel targetting children, as we have a couple of isolated incidents that could be error or false reporting. There is no doubt that Hamas uses children to increase casualities.

Anyway, why not leave aside the (2) wild and unsubstanciated claims regarding Israel for the moment and address the problem that is Hamas (for whom there is no question regarding intent)?

No... you're just going to tout those 2 incidents as equivalency... aren't you?


Hamas are lunatics. This is established.

PS will you please stop editing your posts and just repost.
 
Do you deny that Hamas intentionally increases casualities using children?

I've seen things that strongly suggest it has happened. Do you deny Israel kills far more children than Hamas? Now I'm talking about actually pulling the trigger, the last act in a chain of decision which finally decides yes or no, do the children die?
 
We're posting like madmen, we're sure to both be on the top10 soon. I gotta edit sometimes (and my spacebar sucks).

Answer my post above?

EDIT:

Ok, you did. You admit that Hamas uses children to increase casualties. Now we're getting somewhere.

I deny that the IDF does.

Do you deny Israel kills far more children than Hamas?
Don't try to change the subject. You know the answer to that question.
 
We're posting like madmen, we're sure to both be on the top10 soon. I gotta edit sometimes (and my spacebar sucks).

Answer my post above?

EDIT:

Ok, you did. You admit that Hamas uses children to increase casualties. Now we're getting somewhere.

I deny that the IDF does.

I admit I've seen incidents where it certaintly appears to. It could be an isolated incident. Israel herded people into a house and then shelled it, including children. that could be an isolated incident too. but they have a history of killing civilians, on a far, far grander scale than Hamas.

Now answer my question, who finally pulls the trigger/hits the detonater/pushes the fire button that results in more child deaths, the IDF or Hamas?
 
I answered, in edit, above :)

Look, I'm glad you came clean on what Hamas does. But I'm not budging on my position regarding the IDF's intentions. So I guess we're done for now? There was progress made... a good discussion. I'm glad this one didn't end with you declaring me worthless (although sometimes I might deserve it since I do love trolling you - you're my Lex Luther).

You gotta admit, the Chavez = Pinata was sweet. My opening post was great but the pinata thing was genius.
 
But not on purpose. That matters. You might not think so, but it does.

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Update:

Israel claims Hamas broke the UN ceasefire first, it lasted only 2 hours.
 
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