It should be "TURKS", not OTTOMANS

[HolyOne]

Fortunately, I did not have the pleasure to see the fabolus Rocky series, hehe
off: you misspelled Patton in your sig

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^Eeek!! thanks!!!

 

[orgonebox]

Heh. Sorry to jump in so late on this thread, but to counter Minci, it should definitely be the Ottomans. Turkic nationalism wasn't invented until the end of the nineteenth century, and only took a firm hold in the beginning of the twentieth. As for territorial loss at the end of WWI, the Ottoman empire only reclaimed its borders when Ataturk marched on the proposed Armenian state and the French and British found significant petroleum reserves in the proposed Kurdistan. The empire that influenced that millenium came from Osmanli I and traced their descent therefrom. While Mustafa Kemal would be an interesting second leader, leave it to the mods. Quit expecting the ultimate justice when a marketing strategy is involved.

However, I would agree with Minci that the Janissary as a musketman is just wrong. The sipahi would be a better unit overall.

And Turkic wonders? Um, the Hagia Sophia, or the Blue Mosque. And darn tasty food. Good writers, but they seem to want to put them on trial for suggesting that killing over a million Armenians is genocide. Up with Turkic culture, poop on turkic nationalism.

 

[Underdawg]

First, thanks for the info on the Dam, someone already corrected me tho.
Second... you can kiss my American butt. I am not wrapped up in an American flag, in fact I'm quite radically against most modern US policies. I also never said anything about America kicking the Ottomans butts, I simply stated that Ottoman butts were kicked. Never said Ottomans were around in WW2. And as for your claims on flag-waiving Hollywood in reference to WW2... don't be ignorant. Europe was pretty f**ked before US entered. No one says US did it on their own. Especially in the African campaign, I will always give most credit to the English in dismantling Rommel's Afrika Corps. But let's not fool ourselves, Europe was in some deep sh*t before America joined WW2. There, I'm done. Flag-waving and all.

*Ahem* The Soviet Union was fighting 3/4ths of the German Army on the Eastern Front. They were some Fallashcmajger (sp?) regiments in France during and after D-Day, but they were old depleted ones. The Soviet Union even reached Berlin first and they had a much larger distance to cover rather than the Americans who landed in France which is much closer to Germany.

 

[ShannonCT]

*Ahem* The Soviet Union was fighting 3/4ths of the German Army on the Eastern Front. They were some Fallashcmajger (sp?) regiments in France during and after D-Day, but they were old depleted ones. The Soviet Union even reached Berlin first and they had a much larger distance to cover rather than the Americans who landed in France which is much closer to Germany.

It's amazing what you can do when you're willing to sacrafice 26 million people.

 

[groan]

So... I didn't read the whole thing. But found this interesting:

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=459841&topic=30986530

Same person?

 

[HolyOne]

And Turkic wonders? Um, the Hagia Sophia, or the Blue Mosque.

Excuse me, but the Hagia Sophia (even the name suggests it) is NOT a turkish wonder. It was built in the 6th century by the Eastern-Roman emperor Justinian. Not yet even Byzantine, which is from the 7th century. There were no turks there for centuries! And up until 1453 it was a church, not a mosque! It is definitely an Eastern-Roman/Byzantine wonder, so, everyone, stop suggesting otherwise!

 

[Minci]

-- the Ottoman Empire certainly "left challenged" when it lost territory in WW2

whb, Ottoman empire was not alive when ww2 occured and i was talking about 1500s.

And about that Dam, I thought it was in USA too . I confused because of hover dam. Sorry but my credits go to Russia first (but mostly to their climate, over-population and terrain), then USA and last but not least to the English and None to french .

I guess they thought of that and said, "If we put Turkey in the game, people are going to say 'Why Turkey? Why not Poland or Cambodia or Argentina?'. People are going to think of Turkey as a fairly minor country because it is not a major international player in the modern world and because they aren't going to know about Anatolia or the Golden Horde or the Seljuk Turks. But a good number of people are going to remember learning about the Ottoman empire because it's more recent and because they've studied WWI. Let's put the Ottoman empire in the game since that's the latest and greatest incarnation of the Turks. ."

Sorry ShannonCT but your idea just sucks. Its the stupid ppls problem to not to know Ottoman Empire was Turkish or cant see the bonds. We read History in Turkey and I know Wellington or Victoria, Bismark and most of the other stuf. They must be common knowledge. And not knowing that Ottoman Empire was a Turkish empire is just ignorance. Argentinians and cambodians, would give the same reaction that they give, when they saw English Empire.

I think it is related to that minority thing. Some ppl cant accept that some of the todays minor powers were some Major powers in the history. Like Greece or Turkey. But they show it only with Turks...

That will appeal to most Americans. We don't want to offend the Turks by ignoring the rest of their history, but we dont sell many copies of the game in Turkey

It s like insulting to a country from your local TV, but hey, Civilization is not local. May be we dont watch that channel too much but we can watch nevertheless. ShannonCT, this thing is an insult. It insults to a nation by saying "Hey guys, you are not a great ppl, only this empire was good enough to give credit. Forget your entire history and eat this. Ah and we do it only to you, others will be shown respect but not you."
Market profits cant add, even a bit of reason or right, to this thing.

There's some gray area here. For instance, the Aztec Empire started with one of the many city-states in central Mexico, Tenochtitlan. The areas that they conquered and absorbed into their empire contained peoples of the same Mexica ethnicity and the same Nahuatl language. So the term Aztec is very much an empire name and not a ethnicity, language, or culture name. Mexica would be equivalent to Turks, but would you rather play as the Aztecs or the Mexicas?

If I was a Mexician, I wouldnt build a really strong bond between todays mexican ppl and aztech ppl and aztechs in the game. But if there is a strong bond, I would come here and tell these things for Mexica.
But as much as I know their history here you go:
was Aztechians - now Mexicans
was Turks - now Turks

They should put an Armenian Civ in the game. That would really get the Turk crowd riled up.

I would be happy to see them and all of the Turks will be too. %99 percentage of Turks have at least one or two Armenian friend and against the world opinion we get well with them in our country. But dont forget that every nation have their fashists and dont give them any credit.

Although he is the father of modern Turkey he is not well known in the West and regarded unfavorably by a decent percentage of those who do know of him. All it takes is one game designer of Armenian heritage to insure he never sees the light of day in Civ.

Ataturk was the most brilliant. I thought ppl of europe and US would know him. Sorry to hear that. I dont want to dramatize but if you read his life u can see what i am talking about. A militaristic, industrialist, financial, cultural, political genius. I didnt see any one comparable to him in the history.
(I really dont know much about Washington and Franklin and cant talk about them)

No.
USA is a acronym for United States of America
Our name is still America, we're just stating that our states are united
We're americans, our country is America

what is your countries name? I dont think it is America. Whereever i see it, it is either U.S. or U.S.A. And I think it should be American Empire, as I want Turkish Empire . Thnx Blitzkrieg.

Turkic nationalism wasn't invented until the end of the nineteenth century, and only took a firm hold in the beginning of the twentieth

Yeah but there was indeed a malinees nationalism and Aztech Nationalists were torching the towns of Incas because a Greek nationalist-terrorist has stolen their Boeing 747. And because of our non-nationalist thinking we never invaded any other ppl

Quit expecting the ultimate justice when a marketing strategy is involved

I am not expecting that. I am just expecting the respect, that they can show to other nations. You cant know but ppl do that most of the time. I mean ppl not from Turkey do it all the times. Put Turks in a bottle, shake them a little and woala! You can only see their trace but not in their natural form.

Good writers, but they seem to want to put them on trial for suggesting that killing over a million Armenians is genocide.

Dont even try to give an opinion about that. I dont know what you read in your country but we can read our history... Dont even try...

So... I didn't read the whole thing. But found this interesting:

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/gen...topic=30986530

Same person?

Hell no!! . I am not a type-G, "Hey all the world is ours!" mombo jombo person.
I am just a sad man, who gets irritated of the ignorance. It is common to see Turks as wet cat in most games.
Our history dont begin with Tu tribe and rk tribe getting together. Our history began with Turks and it is still going with Turks. It is an insult to tread us as ottomanians and call the sum of our great empires as Ottoman Empire. They were all Turkish Empires and none is less important than the other. You heard Atilla (Beaten Rome), Golden Horde, Selcukluk (Seljuk Empire, the empire that held Anatolia while the crusades were running and the empire who kicked Byzantium out of Anatolia), Hun and Gokturk Empires (Chinas most feared enemy at those days and strongest reason of Great Wall). You sure heard them, may be not their names but at least their deeds.

Friends, there arent any civ in the game who are not called with their nations name!!! THEY ARE ALL CALLED WITH THEIR NATIONS NAME, BUT US.
Cant u see? I can see it but i cant figure the problem... Is this a mistake, a joke or a planned thing or just ignorance...

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

*Ahem* The Soviet Union was fighting 3/4ths of the German Army on the Eastern Front. They were some Fallashcmajger (sp?) regiments in France during and after D-Day, but they were old depleted ones. The Soviet Union even reached Berlin first and they had a much larger distance to cover rather than the Americans who landed in France which is much closer to Germany.

Hmmm... well, I'll concede to this, if you can provide some sort of credible source. I've never heard that before in any of my classes or in any books I've read, so if you could please provide a link to a credible source, I'd appreciate the knowledge. Thanks!

 

[Nordiska]

As a history major, I can vouch that the Soviet Union fought and destroyed more Divisions than the West (USA, Britain, France etc) did. Also remember that America sent tons of materials to the Soviets (lend lease) to allow them to fight the Germans.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^ and @ Underdawg, I have started reading up more on the German defenses of Normandy, and I see that you are both indeed correct. However, some of the reasons the beaches of Normandy were underdefended are that the Allies conducted successful ploys making the Germans think they may be focusing the brunt of their attacks on a more northern beach in Norway, and a more southern beach in France. Also, there were disputes between Rommel and another German general on where to focus Panzer divisions and therefore (in Hitler's characteristically poor planning)the divisions were split between the two and some were ordered to remain static until Hitler himself gave orders (which he never did, oops!).

Also, the figures on 3/4 of the German military being in the Soviet Union are probably a little exagerated. But I haven't read anything to prove or disprove this yet.

 

[aelf]

Sorry but my credits go to Russia first (but mostly to their climate, over-population and terrain), then USA and last but not least to the English and None to french .

I can't be mistaken that you're referring to winning WW2, right? I'm sorry to say that I would be appalled if anyone still sympathises with you now. While I agree with your concerns about the representation of Turks in the game, I deplore your evident lack of respect for people of other nations. You cited a lack of ability in the English language as the reason for your first unenlightened remark. I don't think you can say the same for this one.

The French Resistance is the name used for resistance movements during World War II which fought the German occupation of France and the pro-Nazi French Vichy regime, after the government and the high command of France surrendered in 1940. Resistance groups included small groups of armed men and women (usually referred to as the maquis), publishers of underground newspapers or even filmmakers, and escape networks that helped allied soldiers. French Resistance groups cooperated with Allied secret services (see Office of Strategic Services and Special Operations Executive), especially in providing intelligence on the Atlantic Wall and coordinating sabotage and other actions to contribute to the success of Operation Overlord.

Risks involved

The German occupation authorities did not hesitate to employ brutal means in order to subdue the French population. The risks were high for those involved in resistance and also for those surrounding them, since the Germans soon established practices of retaliation against innocents to punish anti-German activity.

-The German military authorities would execute guerrillas and suspected guerrillas.

-They would take hostages from among the general population to be executed in the event of resistance activity, executing several French people for a single German death. Sometimes, the hostages were taken from the same group as the presumed resistance fighters or saboteurs (e.g. railroad workers for railroad sabotage); a large number were among those accused by the Germans of being communists. Others, perhaps, were merely unlucky. The Gestapo and the SS tortured suspected guerrillas and sent them to concentration camps. Threats would also be made on the relatives of captured guerrrillas; for instance, the Gestapo might threaten parents with torturing their children or sending off their daughters to be sex slaves in a military brothel.

-Occasionally, German troops would engage in massacres, such as the destruction of Oradour-sur-Glane where an entire village was razed and the population killed for resistance activities in the vicinity.

In addition, the Vichy Regime had established paramilitary groups (presumably considered part of the Vichy security forces), such as the Milice, in order to fight the Resistance. These groups, collaborating closely with the Nazis, were very brutal and did not hesitate to use methods such as torture.

Forgive the lengthy quotes, but they are meant to demonstrate my point. A course of action chosen by a people under such dangerous circumstances and with great sacrifices cannot be swept under the carpet.

I'm neither American nor French. I'm reading this thread because I like history and am interested in reading (however quickly) debates on that subject. And I'm saying something right now because I feel passionately about people who think they don't deserve to be treated in a certain way while doing the very same thing to others. To sympathise with you is to sympathise with ignorance and hypocrisy. You have divorced yourself from the cause of the Turkish people and have in fact proven to be a disgrace to them.

 

[ShannonCT]

Sorry ShannonCT but your idea just sucks. Its the stupid ppls problem to not to know Ottoman Empire was Turkish or cant see the bonds. We read History in Turkey and I know Wellington or Victoria, Bismark and most of the other stuf. They must be common knowledge. And not knowing that Ottoman Empire was a Turkish empire is just ignorance. Argentinians and cambodians, would give the same reaction that they give, when they saw English Empire.

I think it is related to that minority thing. Some ppl cant accept that some of the todays minor powers were some Major powers in the history. Like Greece or Turkey. But they show it only with Turks...

It s like insulting to a country from your local TV, but hey, Civilization is not local. May be we dont watch that channel too much but we can watch nevertheless. ShannonCT, this thing is an insult. It insults to a nation by saying "Hey guys, you are not a great ppl, only this empire was good enough to give credit. Forget your entire history and eat this. Ah and we do it only to you, others will be shown respect but not you."
Market profits cant add, even a bit of reason or right, to this thing.

Then your complaint should be against the teaching of history in American schools. American education is very inward looking. Not much time is given to teaching world history in a comprehensive way. Firaxis isn't trying to make people more knowledgeable about history. They're trying to capitalize on people's interest in history and sell a product.

I dont mean to insult your country. I'm just telling you that in the United States, not many people know about the great history of Turkey. In American minds, Turkey is not one of those glamourous ancient civilizations like the Babylonians, Greeks, Egyptians, or Romans. Maybe this has to do with the general antagonism between the West and the Middle East over the last 50 years.

Maybe if they had gone to Turkey and done focus groups (market research) there, they would have found out that most Turks would prefer to have themselves represented as the Turks and not the Ottoman empire. But there just isn't enough people buying the game in Turkey to justify this business expense. So they make a game with mostly Americans and Western Europeans in mind.

If I was a Mexician, I wouldnt build a really strong bond between todays mexican ppl and aztech ppl and aztechs in the game. But if there is a strong bond, I would come here and tell these things for Mexica.
But as much as I know their history here you go:
was Aztechians - now Mexicans
was Turks - now Turks

The reality is that there aren't many descendents of the Aztecs left, because they were mostly wiped out by European invaders and European diseases. Most mexicans today are mostly Spanish. So you're right, there isn't going to be a strong bond between today's Mexicans and the Aztecs. The point was that Aztec is the name of an empire more than the name of a race or culture. Aztec is equivalent to Ottoman in that regard.

 

[Revolutionary]

actually most Mexicans are descended from the native tribes of the Aztec Empire, the Spanish did inter-married with the Aztecs so most of these are mixed

however the culture was almost completely destroyed as the Aztecs were forced to assimilate to Spanish culture and the Roman Catholic religion

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^I thought the Aztecs died of massive sweeping diseases and the murderous ways of the explorers. I'm sure that throughout the ages, since the Aztec were definitely reduced to almost nothing, the blood has been mixed again and again to become mostly Spanish.

 

[Revolutionary]

^^ The Aztecs were reduced to 2 million by 1600 from about 8 million poeple mostly due to diseases, i.e. smallpox and such

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico#Spanish_conquest

2 million is hardly nothing at the time, being 400 years in the past, to compare the entire population of Portugal around that time was about 1 million

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I see. Thank you for the information.

 

[ZerrorR]

Ataturk was the most brilliant. I thought ppl of europe and US would know him. Sorry to hear that. I dont want to dramatize but if you read his life u can see what i am talking about. A militaristic, industrialist, financial, cultural, political genius. I didnt see any one comparable to him in the history.
(I really dont know much about Washington and Franklin and cant talk about them)

Yeah, Josip Broz Tito was more famous than Ataturk, almost created a third superpower, and I dont see Yugoslavians in Civ

 

[Swedishguy]

Was once Persia and now is Iran!

One small note: Don't you think having oil would make a civ more powerful on oil-scarce maps?

 

[Revolutionary]

@blitzkrieg1980 - np

Was once Persia and now is Iran!

One small note: Don't you think having oil would make a civ more powerful on oil-scarce maps?

yes

but by the time you get to that part of the tech tree the game is already mostly decided