It should be "TURKS", not OTTOMANS

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^Unfortunately this is true. If you're getting your butt whooped up until the 1800's. A sudden surge of tanks and planes aren't going to help you. Chances are the AI have plenty of troops to counter any attack you could even attempt. Even if they didn't, you couldn't count on other AI remaining peaceful as you try a late game resurgence.

 

[Minci]

I can't be mistaken that you're referring to winning WW2, right? I'm sorry to say that I would be appalled if anyone still sympathises with you now. While I agree with your concerns about the representation of Turks in the game, I deplore your evident lack of respect for people of other nations. You cited a lack of ability in the English language as the reason for your first unenlightened remark. I don't think you can say the same for this one.

Yeah I give no credit to French because I find them unsuccesful in ww2, but i dont think finding them unsuccesful means any disrespect to them. Okay they suffered alot and I am really sorry for them but that doesnt make them any more succesful. The Vichy Government was a disaster fo their history.
I dont need wikipedia or any other source to think they are not succesful because this is what i think. But being right or wrong, their sufferage, their resistance or the part they played in the war, they could be huge but as you can see, I am clearly not talking about that.
Again its all about my seeing of the general war as some say USA was the lead or some Russia. I was just talking about that.
And you dont need to feel any symphaty to me, tell me if my case is right or wrong because its not about me. I may be the devil but I have candy in my hand and pls, take the candy if you want or dont take, you dont have to sell your soul to me take it or leave it

Maybe if they had gone to Turkey and done focus groups (market research) there, they would have found out that most Turks would prefer to have themselves represented as the Turks and not the Ottoman empire. But there just isn't enough people buying the game in Turkey to justify this business expense. So they make a game with mostly Americans and Western Europeans in mind.

so this is enough reason to insult a nation?

Aztec is equivalent to Ottoman in that regard.

So what was the ppls i mean the aztechians name? I mean do they have a different name from their empires name? I think not...
This still doesnt answer me. Why is the only nation not named in that game is Turk?

Yeah, Josip Broz Tito was more famous than Ataturk, almost created a third superpower, and I dont see Yugoslavians in Civ

Do you take the idea from borders of my post? Turks wont be in the game because of Ataturk. Ataturk must be in the game because of Turks. Now get the idea? I dont know Tito and I won't dare to speak about his deeds or compare him but I would recommend you to do like that too.

I will try to translate some sayings about Ataturk from other important people.
I tried to find some info about Tito but could only find a cronology and it was full of everything, his visits, his speeches. Can you tell a site where I can find a more useful and short chronology or biography to learn more about him?

Was once Persia and now is Iran!

They call themselves Iranian not persian, but we still call ourselves Turks.

 

[Minci]

:ABOUT MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATURK:

" I learned about Mustafa Kemal Atatürk from someone who knows him very well. As I was speaking to the Foreign Affairs Minister of the Soviet Union, Litvinov, he told me that the most valuable and interesting leader in the world does not live in Europe but beyond the Straits in Ankara and that he was the President of the Turkish Republic, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. "

"My sorrow is that, there is no more possibility to fulfil my strong wish about the meeting with this man."

Franklin D. Roosevelt

"The death of Atatürk, who had saved Turkey during the war and revived the Turkish Nation after the war, is a great loss, not only for his country, but also for Europe as well."

Sir Winston Churchill

" The name of Atatürk reminds makind of the historical success of one of the greatest men of this century. His inspirational leadership of the Turkish Nation, his open view in understanding the modern world and his might and courage as a military leader. "

John F. Kennedy

"Atatürk was a statesman a military leader and one of the greatest leaders of our century. I am proud to be one o Atatürk's loyal friends. "

Gen. Douglas MacArtur

His achievements in Turkey are an enduring monument to Atatürk. Emerging nations admire him as a pioneer of national liberation. The world honors his memory as a foremost peacemaker who upheld the principles of humanism and the vision of a united humanity. Tributes have been offered to him through the decades by such world statesmen as Lloyd George, Churchill, Roosevelt, Nehru, de Gaulle, Adenauer, Bourguiba, Nasser, Kennedy, and countless others. A White House statement, issued on the occasion of "The Atatürk Centennial" in 1981, pays homage to him as "a great leader in times of war and peace". It is fitting that there should be high praise for Atatürk, an extraordinary leader of modern times, who said in 1933: "I look to the world with an open heart full of pure feelings and friendship".

"Peace at Home, Peace in the World."
"Mankind is a single body and each nation a part of that body. We must never say 'What does it matter to me if some part of the world is ailing?' If there is such an illness, we must concern ourselves with it as though we were having that illness."
"I am not leaving a spiritual legacy of dogmas, unchangeable petrified directives. My spiritual legacy is science and reason. ... What I wanted to do and what I tried to achieve for the Turkish nation is quite evident. If those people who wish to follow me after I am gone take the reason and science as their guides they will be my true spiritual heirs."

M. Kemal ATATURK

THIS WAS SAID FOR THE ENEMIES DIED IN CANAKKALE AND ANATOLIA IN WWI

A MESSAGE FOR WORLD PEACE
"THOSE HEROES THAT SHED THEIR BLOOD AND LOST THEIR LIVES... YOU ARE NOW LYING IN THE SOIL OF A FRIENDLY COUNTRY. THEREFORE REST IN PEACE. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE JOHNNIES AND THE MEHMETS TO US WHERE THEY LIE SIDE BY SIDE HERE IN THIS COUNTRY OF OURS...
YOU, THE MOTHERS, WHO SENT THEIR SONS FROM FAR AWAY COUNTRIES, WIPE AWAY YOUR TEARS; YOUR SONS ARE NOW LYING IN OUR BOSOM AND ARE IN PEACE. AFTER HAVING LOST THEIR LIVES ON THIS LAND THEY HAVE BECOME OUR SONS AS WELL."

M. Kemal ATATURK
for the soldiers who fought against Turkey and died in Turkey.

 

[Revolutionary]

@Minci

Aztec = name of empire
Mexicas = name of the people of the ruling group

Ottoman = name of empire
Turks = name of the people of the ruling group

so yes they do have a different name

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec

the makers of the game did the same thing to the Aztecs

so no insult was made or intended

if they wanted to insult Turks they wouldn't have included them and would've written something silly somewhere in the game like the Turks don't existed, never have, and they are a figment of your imagination!

but seriously it seems to just be an oversight

oh and Persians are just one tribe of the ancient Iranians, the most powerful yes but still only one in many, so when you see Persian Empire it's really the representation of all Iranians in the empire

 

[Minci]

According to the Aubin codex, the seven Nahua tribes lived in Aztlán under the rule of a powerful elite. The seven tribes fled Aztlán, to seek new lands. The Mexicas were the last group to leave, guided by their priest "Huitzil". The Aubin Codex relates that after leaving Aztlán, Huitzilopochtli ordered his people to never identify themselves as Azteca, the name of their former masters. Instead they should henceforth call themselves Mexìcâ.

The Spanish conquistadors referred to them as "Mexicas". In Mexico, archeologists and museums use the term Mexicas. The wider population in and outside Mexico generally speaks of Aztecs. In this article, the term "Mexica" is used to refer to the Mexica people up until the time of the formation of the Triple Alliance. After this, the term "Aztecs" is used to refer to the peoples who made up the Triple Alliance.

They are refered as "Aztecs" after the formation of Alliance which means Fraxis is using their nations name, both for their nation and their empire.

In 1843, with the publication of the work of William H. Prescott, it was adopted by most of the world, including 19th century Mexican scholars who saw it as a way to distinguish present-day Mexicans from pre-conquest Mexicans. This usage has been the subject of debate in more recent years, and the term "Mexica" is becoming more common.

And there are debates about that.

Their name has changed and there isn't a clear decision to whether call them aztecs or mexicas.
Our name never changed and it was and still "Turk". Fraxis only made a choice and made it on the more popular name, but we dont give them an alternative because there is only one choice which is "Turk" and "Turkish Empire" as in "Aztecs" and "Aztec Empire".

if they wanted to insult Turks they wouldn't have included them and would've written something silly somewhere in the game like the Turks don't existed, never have, and they are a figment of your imagination!

And they already made that by not adding Turks for 4 games and adding for only expansions.
Did you realize the barbarian ruler of Civ-2's name. When they take a town just look at it? It was Atilla. A great Turkis leader who invaded Europe and Rome and played a big part in the partition and destruction of Rome. Now is this a joke or what?

 

[Revolutionary]

Atilla was a hun, probably Mongolian

show me proof he was a Turk

and no Mongols and Turks are not the same


edit: and the Rome Empire had been divide before the Huns came

as for the Aztecs it doesn't change the fact that the ruling elite were still called Mexica before and after the destruction of their empire

 

[Wodan]

so this is enough reason to insult a nation?

Sorry, but you lost me there.

I don't mean lost as in "I don't get it". I mean lost as in no sympathy whatsoever for your argument.

It's a game. Nobody decided to purposely insult every Turk on the planet.

Assume they picked the civs and their names out of a hat during a drunken party in the middle of development, and you'll be a happier person.

Wodan

 

[dojoboy]

The designers try to pick Civs and names that people (especially Americans) are most familiar with.

The Age of Empires series and RoN include the Turks.

 

[Minci]

Atilla was a hun,

Hun empire was a Turkish Empire . After all i am happy that it is known.

and no Mongols and Turks are not the same

I wont say no. It is about the angle you look and I dont think it's gonna effect anything.

Sorry, but you lost me there.

I don't mean lost as in "I don't get it". I mean lost as in no sympathy whatsoever for your argument.

Sorry but, every American would attack me if I would call u USAerian or Washingtonian and yell "Edit your post and stop insulting us" wont they? Admit it. I made a mistake by thinking Turkish and writing English, and wrote something wrong. Did you see that? Nobody said anything about the tread or explained my mistake. There was a furry. And now when i make the furry i am just complaning eh?

It's a game. Nobody decided to purposely insult every Turk on the planet.

I dont mean that this is on purpose. I just cant understand and I just cant understand you ppl? Cant you put yourselves in this situation. Imagine that we Turks made a worldwide game and call American ppl as USAerians or Washingtonians. Would you sit there and relax by telling yourselves that "oh that is just a game" or come here in the forum and ask us to correct our mistake?
They made research on every god damn nation and they made all of them right, but us. Now this shows that they were not drunk and they made their homework. So why would I assume anything?

There was an hollywood film (a big shot for cinema). I just cant remember its name. There was a scene taken in arabia. (according to scenario it was in Turkey). There were ppl drinking and some half-naked girls dancing. They were dancing with a music and music was our azan (Moslem call to prayer, a holy chant). Some newspaper guys drawings about our prophet showing him as a terrorist. Every god damn foreign film showing Turkey as an Arabian country.
Do you think its easy to live with these and tell " It's a game. Nobody decided to purposely insult every Turk on the planet."
Put yourself instead of me and be objective. Would you sit there and relax or come here and want a correction, an apolgy, a something or is it too much to ask any?

May be its not an insult, and its not on purpose and may be it is. But either way could be true, because as much as I can see here, people just cant accept others, like what they see themselves or what they are.
And I dont care if it is on purpose or not. I just care that if you ppl would understand this or not.
And I am terribly sorry that most of you didnt even try.
I came here and explained you, showed you examples. Showed you reasons and here we debated "Are the Americans a Nation or not", "Did I show respect to France or not", "Did USA or Russia lead the WW2", "Is it profitable to put a nation as it is or not", and now its the turn for "It is an insult or not" or "I am a good person or not".

May be I am Devil with a candy, or I am a good person who is just sad and a little angry. Take the candy or leave it. Dont argue about my moral condition, my alignment or my intelligence or historical knowledge.
You ppl could at least act like Sirford or ShannonCT and answer my questions with reasons, disagree with them and show your reasons or agree with me.

Quote:
That will appeal to most Americans. We don't want to offend the Turks by ignoring the rest of their history, but we dont sell many copies of the game in Turkey

It s like insulting to a country from your local TV, but hey, Civilization is not local. May be we dont watch that channel too much but we can watch nevertheless. ShannonCT, this thing is an insult. It insults to a nation by saying "Hey guys, you are not a great ppl, only this empire was good enough to give credit. Forget your entire history and eat this. Ah and we do it only to you, others will be shown respect but not you."
Market profits cant add, even a bit of reason or right, to this thing.

And if it would change your mind. The insult word began here and it was the right word to use here. When the debate grows longer and longer, its end would look a little strange without seeing its begining.
And yes, if you tell a nation "Hey guys, you are not a great ppl, only this empire was good enough to give credit. Forget your entire history and eat this. Ah and we do it only to you, others will be shown respect but not you." It is an insult...
I will repeat myself sorry but, I am not after whether this is an insult or not, or whether it is on purpose or not. I am just here to make these things clear and show the mistake here.
It may not seem you wrong but calling one of our leaders a Barbarian and changing our nations name is just not right. Think of that.

 

[Wodan]

Sorry but, every American would attack me if I would call u USAerian or Washingtonian and yell "Edit your post and stop insulting us" wont they?

You can call me a "Washingtonian" if you like, he's my great great great great grandfather. Seriously.

Admit it. I made a mistake by thinking Turkish and writing English, and wrote something wrong. Did you see that? Nobody said anything about the tread or explained my mistake. There was a furry. And now when i make the furry i am just complaning eh?

There's an English word called "ranting". Visit http://dictionary.reference.com if that will help.

Whew. I'm not even going to respond to the rest of it.

Your English is good enough to blaspheme in, so I'd say you speak quite well enough. And I'm not especially religious either.

I will respond to one thing, though.

Do you think its easy to live with these and tell " It's a game. Nobody decided to purposely insult every Turk on the planet."
Put yourself instead of me and be objective. Would you sit there and relax or come here and want a correction, an apolgy, a something or is it too much to ask any?

Americans, or USAerians to use your term, are the most irreverent people on the planet. We are no respecter of people, religions, or cultures. We'll make fun of most everything, and find humor everywhere. What we don't find funny we'll often ignore completely. Most of the world thinks that is arrogance, or self-centeredness. That's not it at all.

But this is all beside the point. The point is that someone (Firaxis) did something that you personally find insulting. I feel the same way when I see someone spit on the sidewalk to relieve excess saliva. Is that my culture (upbringing) or theirs that is in the wrong about the acceptability of spitting ("hawking a loogie")? Is there even something "wrong" about either of our beliefs in the first place? Answer: neither. both.

Frankly, the smaller the world grows, due to ease of transportation, the internet, etc, the less "thin skinned" we all need to be. We all need to grow up and recognize what is important and worth causing a fuss over, and what is not.

Wodan

 

[aelf]

But being right or wrong, their sufferage, their resistance or the part they played in the war, they could be huge but as you can see, I am clearly not talking about that.

Then what are you talking about exactly? Not the war, not who did anything to win the war? I think you're talking about how WW2 went in your head, a version of events that is wrapped in your own concepts about how a people contribute to its conclusion. And I was talking about the French Resistance, not the Vichy government, which was opposed like the Nazis. Your logic eludes me.

Obviously, you lack the ability to understand what I'm talking about so I'm not going to explain anymore. You are insulting other nations yourself with your lightly-considered and now indefensible remarks. Please stop acting like other people are devils if you, as you have conceded that you might be, are one yourself. The sight of such a thing makes me sick.

 

[SniperRedFox]

There is a difference from Tukic Aristocracy and Turkish... Some of the Huns were from Turkic aristocracy, and even Attila may have been part Turkic. However he has mostly Eurasian/Asian blood in him, as is very appearance in his physical appearance.

Saying the Turks and Ottoman Turks are exactly the same also isn't correct. It's like saying Iran and Persia are the same or even saying Italy and Rome are the same, or Mongolia and the ancient Mongols are the same, or Egypt and ancient Egypt are the same. Which they definitely aren't.
By your logic, the United States in the game should then have nothing but Native American technology and be called "Americans" because your trying to link modern civilizations with Ancient ones and vice versa.

Saying the Ottoman Empire was one of the greatest ever is definitely a matter of opinion. You cannot bring it to us as fact, there are many empires/civilizations that could be considered as great or greater than the Ottoman Empire:
Ancient Rome
Western Roman Empire
Byzantine Empire
Holy Roman Empire
Macedonian Empire
Ancient Egypt
Ancient China
Ancient Persia
The Huns
The Mongolian Empire
Saladin's/Arab Empire
Aztec Empire
Inca Empire
Mayan Empire
etc... etc...

 

[Minci]

You guys are just spoiling the thread. You guys dont read, just hesitantly read the parts you like and throw the rest and take your resource of creating argument.

Aelf. do a quick search in www.google.com write "french victories" and hit the button "I feel lucky". dont search it just hit the button "I feel lucky" or "I will take my chance" (dont know what is the buttons name in their english page cause I cant see it). Look there and you will certanliy learn how I feel about their military history. I wont be able to explain you because my logic eludes you.
we lost ww1 and anyone who tells me that we were the looser and we were not succesful wont count an insult. As I call them unsuccesful. NOW WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? Didnt they lost the War of France and didnt half of France turned to Vichy government? I count these as an unsucces and I am free to call it. I neither call them backstabbers nor feeble nor stupid and I wasnt talking about the french resistance, I was talking about the FRANCE in WAR!!!

There's an English word called "ranting". Visit http://dictionary.reference.com if that will help.

Whew. I'm not even going to respond to the rest of it.

Your English is good enough to blaspheme in, so I'd say you speak quite well enough. And I'm not especially religious either.

I will respond to one thing, though.

Woaw good idea. When somebody finds reasons and give you a good logic, name his ranting and escape from his logic. We feel uncomfortable about your guys making fun about everything and want some respect and when I talk about it I am just ranting or I am a blasphemer.
Didnt you guys think that I was just making a little fun by calling America not a nation and relax? NO!!!
You are as sensitive as I am when it comes to a soft part but at least I have some respect and I didnt mean it and I said that I am sorry!!!

Look man I never said that my english is bad. It is only my second language and sometimes I cant express myself as I want. I would like to write more about these things but I wont cause you wont read them anyway. You will pick the spot you want and write more and more about that.

I showed you where the word "insult" added to the debate. Did you see or just missed that part?

I dont belive that Americans make fun of everything because I have many American friends with whom I can talk and argue and who show respect to other ppls beliefs and cultures.

We all need to grow up and recognize what is important and worth causing a fuss over, and what is not.

Your popular culture could be fun there, and swallowing every culture may look fine out there but not here.
SO STOP CONVERTING THIS TREAD TO AN AMERICAN-EASTERN CULTURE WAR AGAIN. Because we dont feel the way you feel and I am just trying to explain you this.
I am trying to find a centeral point where both you can still have your fun and I can still feel respected, but know that, you just want to take all you want and dont give a damn piece of thing.

Americans, or USAerians to use your term, are the most irreverent people on the planet. We are no respecter of people, religions, or cultures. We'll make fun of most everything, and find humor everywhere. What we don't find funny we'll often ignore completely.

And look in to your dictionary for the word irreverent.
irreverent=disrespectful.

Most of the world thinks that is arrogance, or self-centeredness. That's not it at all

NO this is not arrogance. This is irreverence and it is worse than arrogance!!!

You accept that you are irreverent, and hereby I want you to stop that and pay some respect. I dont care about you ppls feelings and I wont try to change them because I respect the way you feel and your culture but feel your irreverence elsewhere cause
Your freedom ends where another persons begins

and you already have passed that line and ignore to see it and call ppl ranting who try to show you the line.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

CAN WE ALL AGREE THAT THE TURKISH PEOPLE HAVE AN ILLUSTRIOUS HISTORY?

I think we can. Minci, yes you are right, the game developers did overlook a people with a great history and they may have nerfed this by calling Turks "Ottomans", however like Wodan has said above, just think of the developers all drunk and asking the strippers who they thought should be in the game

 

[Minci]

Saying the Turks and Ottoman Turks are exactly the same also isn't correct. It's like saying Iran and Persia are the same or even saying Italy and Rome are the same, or Mongolia and the ancient Mongols are the same, or Egypt and ancient Egypt are the same. Which they definitely aren't.
By your logic, the United States in the game should then have nothing but Native American technology and be called "Americans" because your trying to link modern civilizations with Ancient ones and vice versa.

Every nation had changes in their racial roots even Americans are changing and Turks are changing too. Not only Egypt; English, French, Germans, Italians had that change.
I dont see a reason to not to build a link between todays nations and the pasts because of that natural change.
If you wont like to link them; Ottoman Empire was a Turkish empire and they called themselves as Turks and in their writings they refer their empire as "Turk Empire". Ottoman is the name the Europeans call us. Name Ottoman comes from the name "Osmanlı" which means "children of or the followers of Osman, who was the leader of the feudal State". It was the name of the "Beylik" (Feudal State) who gained power to unite the Turkish States.

But I wont try to link Todays America and The Native America because it is not a change; they are absolutely different nations.

But as much as we call ourselves "Turk", they did the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orkhon_script
These are the oldest writings of Turks. They call themselves openley "Turk". And their nations name was Gokturk which means "Sky-Turk". (Their god was sky)
I dont know the difference between anchient English and Todays English but my girlfriend is an English teacher and she told me that they have very less in common.
But in the other hand, we can still read and understand most of these writings. We only cant understand the alphabet which has changed twice. So it is simple to find the bond between us. As in Atilla, most of the Ottoman Emperors had foreigner wives which makes most of them Half-Turk, but this doesnt change the result. Because it is not races we are talking about, it is the nations.

Saying the Ottoman Empire was one of the greatest ever is definitely a matter of opinion. You cannot bring it to us as fact, there are many empires/civilizations that could be considered as great or greater than the Ottoman Empire:

I wont oppose that as it is a matter of opinion, but having the domination for such a long time in history and having their own cultures like Egypt, China, Rome and Greece gives them much credit.

the Chinese are not called by any of their various dynasties. By the arguments being put forth to you the Americans should either be called "Republicans" or "Democrats" which would go over oh so very well.

It is a personal msg. sent to me. Wont tell the nickname but I wanted to add this.
Ottoman was like a chinese Dynasty, but nobdy call their dynasties we call them as a whole and say "Chinese".

 

[Minci]

CAN WE ALL AGREE THAT THE TURKISH PEOPLE HAVE AN ILLUSTRIOUS HISTORY?

I think we can. Minci, yes you are right, the game developers did overlook a people with a great history and they may have nerfed this by calling Turks "Ottomans", however like Wodan has said above, just think of the developers all drunk and asking the strippers who they thought should be in the game

woaw . Cultured strippers with knowledge of Aztech and Inca .
Okay I will assume that and that solves the problem of "is it on purpose" with an answer of "no".
But that doesnt still correct the mistake or do you ppl think this is a mistake?

 

[aelf]

You guys are just spoiling the thread. You guys dont read, just hesitantly read the parts you like and throw the rest and take your resource of creating argument.

Aelf. do a quick search in www.google.com write "french victories" and hit the button "I feel lucky". dont search it just hit the button "I feel lucky" or "I will take my chance" (dont know what is the buttons name in their english page cause I cant see it). Look there and you will certanliy learn how I feel about their military history. I wont be able to explain you because my logic eludes you.
we lost ww1 and anyone who tells me that we were the looser and we were not succesful wont count an insult. As I call them unsuccesful. NOW WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? Didnt they lost the War of France and didnt half of France turned to Vichy government? I count these as an unsucces and I am free to call it. I neither call them backstabbers nor feeble nor stupid and I wasnt talking about the french resistance, I was talking about the FRANCE in WAR!!!

What? What are you talking about? Sorry, I made a mistake too. I correct myself: You don't have any logic. I can think several famous French victories off the top of my head - Marengo, Austerlitz, Marne (both battles), etc. Are you sure you know how to do a search on the internet? And you said at first that "the French" did not contribute to the war, not that France lost. Does your lack of ability in English also include a lack of ability to think?

Your replies only get increasingly offensive. I read this whole fruitless thread and have come to the conclusion that almost everyone who addressed you has wasted his/her breath. It's obviously no use explaining anything to a person with an obnoxiously immature mind and a half-baked grounding in history who insists that he is right. Really, how old are you? Are you going to grow up to be someone who bombs people whom you think insult your race/religion?

Seriously, if you are so dissatisfied with the mistake Firaxis made, why don't you stop playing and stop posting in these forums? We could certainly do without the likes of you. Thank you. You would do us a very great favour.

 

[Swedishguy]

Atilla was a hun, probably Mongolian

show me proof he was a Turk

and no Mongols and Turks are not the same


edit: and the Rome Empire had been divide before the Huns came

as for the Aztecs it doesn't change the fact that the ruling elite were still called Mexica before and after the destruction of their empire

Atilla a turk? Proposterous! Who is this minci?

 

[sch1]

FYI, Turks or Turkey is a more modern description , the Ottomans derived from nomadic horseman from east asia. They came into their own under Mehemd, dominating the Middle East after the fall of Constantinople in 1453, and the devolution of power of the Abbassid Caliphate

 

[sch1]

Atila wasnt from the same tribal area that Genghis Khan was from, theycame out of the eastern steppes of Russia