It should be "TURKS", not OTTOMANS

[Minci]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns

It says that Huns can be Chinese, Mongolian or Turk or a mixture of these.
Now look at the Map. Its like
Huns - Turkish Empires - Mongolian+Chinese

I dont think that neither Mongolians nor Chinese nor Iranians jumped over the Turks and build an Empire.
And if you read our history there are 2 Hun empires. One is in central Asia and one in EuroAsia. Their Empire could be a mixture but Atilla is a Turk.
The Founders of EuroASian Hun Empire was the son of the most succesful Hun emperor. His brother took the Central Hun throne and allied with Uygur. His brother Atilla rode to west with his clan and founded Euroasian Hun empire.
Dont you find it strange that their aristochrats and Atilla spoke Turkish????? And that he never ever invaded east?
If he would be given a nationality, giving him other than a Turk nationality is preposterous. If you would like him without any, go your way.

Marengo, Austerlitz, Marne (both battles),

Three battles? Man you must be joking.
And what are you talking about. Who cares about austerlitz or Marne when talking about WW2.
Those are what I feel about their military-history you cant change my opinion on that. But yeah you can blame me if I call them anything like stupid or feeble.
But I aint do that. I think they were not succesful in militaristic way for whole their history but I WONT DEBATE ABOUT THAT.
Pls dont start a debate about it because it is my OWN f*kin idea and my own f*kin opinion and it doesnt even have an effect on the truth if it is different and i am not a global person or I didnt put that on a global product so it just doesnt care other ppl. Its wholey my damn opinion.

And again and again i tell you this and you dodge not to answer; were they in any way succesful in War Of France? Were there any impact of France on the advance of Russia?

During the Allied invasion of Normandy, the Maquis and other groups played some role in delaying the German mobilization. As Allied troops advanced, the French Resistance rose against the Nazi occupation forces and their garrisons en masse. For example, Nancy Wake's group of 7,000 maquisards was involved in a pitched battle with 22,000 Germans on June 20, 1944. Some Maquis groups took no prisoners and some German soldiers preferred to surrender to Allied soldiers instead of facing maquisards. Captured Maquis faced torture and being shot or sent to concentration camps, where few survived.

The Allied offensive was slowed and the Germans were able to counterattack in southeast France. On the Vercors plateau, a Maquis group fought about 8000 soldiers under general Karl Pflaum and was defeated with 600 casualties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_(World_War_II)

"Played some role in delaying German mobilization" not a big role or a great role.
Now at the light of this knowledge is it right to say "France was succesful in ww2"? NO. Because Germans had the whole country.
Its like me telling "We didnt lost ww1, our resistance owned them"
Dont you think turks had resistance too? WE HAD TOO, but none did anything other than slowing some forces ,as large as brigade status, a little down. Our organized army made the real push. As French Resistance only slowed them a little down and their organized Army pushed the germans back (which is USA and English Armies). And these doesnt change my idea of giving credits to a nation for a war because I dont count guerilla groups, all I care is about the grand battles. I think guerilla warfare is the main reason of the civilians getting hurt or getting killed in wars. When you lost a war, stay as you are lost or gather your civilians as an army and stand infront of your invaders. Thats what Turkey did after ww1, thats what ppl lived in France did against Caesar. I only give credit to that.
But rest assured that this is my own f*in opinion. As I said I am not a Global thing that can broadcast this. If I had the chance, belive me I wouldnt speak like that. but as far as you ask my opinion locally, it is that!!!

And again and again... I DIDNT TELL ANY CONTEMPTUOUS WORDS ABOUT FRANCE OR FRENCH PPL.
Having my opininons and telling them to ppl, sharing them, and supporting them with reasons cant show any sign of disability of thinking in me. Accusing someone for thinking in his way without disrespecting ppl would show on you but I wont tell you any contemptuous words as you did.

 

[Minci]

FYI, Turks or Turkey is a more modern description , the Ottomans derived from nomadic horseman from east asia. They came into their own under Mehemd, dominating the Middle East after the fall of Constantinople in 1453, and the devolution of power of the Abbassid Caliphate

I can only laugh to these words. Ottomans are the descendants of the Selcuk Empire which began to invade Anatolia in 1041. As you can see; An Empire not Nomadic ppl. Derivations of Turks are Nomadic Ppl if you would like to go too back in history.

Atila wasnt from the same tribal area that Genghis Khan was from, theycame out of the eastern steppes of Russia

same for you. he was speaking Turkish, his aristocrats were speaking Turkish, our history writes that he was the borther of another turkish empires emperor etc. etc. and here is the source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns

 

[HolyOne]

@Minci
I'm reading this thread and feeliings just keep stacking up in me, so I just let it out now.

Do you guys smoke your history books, that you are so high of your culture and history!???? Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong in national pride, but what you are doing is schovinism.

I was approached the other day by a turk guy in a different thread. He said we (Magyars) are turks. I said no and given evidence to my statement. He swept it from the table by saying something that was absolutely nonsense, had he read at least the first sentence of the link I gave. When I pointed this out, no answer came.

I'm saying this as I experience the same sh*t from you.
You may have a great culture and history, but not the greatest of all! You have a unique culture, yes, but so does a small tribe of natives in the middle of the jungles of Africa, yet no one is saying that they are the greatest. Every culture is unique in a way. You (Turks) are not the Alpha and Omega of History. Not every single horseback riding idiot in history was turk. Even if you think otherwise.
Attila as turk? Funny.
Magyars as turks? Funnier.
Rejecting any different opinion? Ridiculous.

You demand the due respect to your country from the developers and from other people here. On what basis? On what basis demand you respect, like you have been offended, when no one hurt you, yet you keep offending others. ("Your freedom ends where another persons begins" I quoted from you) That's how your attitude came down to me: "Respect me, I am turk and we are the greatest civ in the world!" And when someone does not show the respect you want (bow down and worship), you take it as an offense, yet he did not even hurt you in any other way. That's how your attitude looks from the outside. If you didn't want to be like this, perhaps you should change something, if you did, than it's very sad and we have nothing to talk about.

I, for one, won't stand in stunned silence in awe of your mighty culture. I have plenty of reason not to. You and your arrogance for example could be one reason, but I will give you another.
Did you learned that what your almighty civilization did to my country during the 150 years it occupied us? The country, prospering for centuries became a desolate wasteland with ridiculously low population density. You did this in one and a half century. I can counnt on one of my hands what of your fabolous culture remained. A mosque and bath in Pécs, another bath in Pest and a minaret in Eger. The rest is rotting and decay. I'm pretty sure that it is included somewhat differently in your history books, if it is included at all. By the way, do you know what was your mighty empire was called in Europe in the 18-19th century? "The Sick Person of Europe" A disintegrateing and impotent empire. Would have collapsed much sooner if the british and french had that interest. They saved your ass in the Crimean War from the russians. I'm pretty sure you learned this differently too.

So, this may be new to you, there are people, who does not hit the ground, just because you are turkish. If you find that offending, you will have a very stressfull life, but it is ones liberty not to worship your turkishness. ("Your freedom ends where another persons begins")

And I protest against any such insults, that Magyars are of turkish origin!

 

[Revolutionary]

There is a difference from Tukic Aristocracy and Turkish... Some of the Huns were from Turkic aristocracy, and even Attila may have been part Turkic. However he has mostly Eurasian/Asian blood in him, as is very appearance in his physical appearance.

Saying the Turks and Ottoman Turks are exactly the same also isn't correct. It's like saying Iran and Persia are the same or even saying Italy and Rome are the same, or Mongolia and the ancient Mongols are the same, or Egypt and ancient Egypt are the same. Which they definitely aren't.
By your logic, the United States in the game should then have nothing but Native American technology and be called "Americans" because your trying to link modern civilizations with Ancient ones and vice versa.

exactly what I was trying to say! you can't just claim that an ancient culture and its people are the same as a modern deviation

the Huns are no more Turks than the English are Roman

the Huns were a confederation of peoples which did included some Turkic tribes along with Mongolian, Finno-Ugric, Yeniseian Tungus, Caucasus, Iranian, and even some Germanic tribes (Ostrogoths, etc.)

all these peoples mixed to make a unique culture that of the Huns

the Huns were simply that Huns so lets just leave it at that

 

[aelf]

Three battles? Man you must be joking.

Intelligence?

Don't you wonder why so many people are pissed off here? I'm not anymore, though. I'm going to be nice and pretend that you have a very severe psychological problem that makes you forget the specific things you said and get confused about concepts. Sheez, talking about politics or history with juveniles can really shorten people's lives.

 

[Wodan]

This actually is quite fascinating. To me, anyway. I get the feeling that Minci is on the verge of having an apoplectic fit.

To be honest, I don't know that I have ever run across someone quite literally beyond reason. I would say "unreasonable" but using it as an adjective doesn't seem to do justice to the reality. No matter what people say, he goes off. He even insults people who agree with him, and restates the rhetoric. I suppose I'm too logical to comprehend such an emotional basis of reasoning.

Wodan

 

[aelf]

Well, there must be a reason why there's such an excess of violence in this world.

It's also interesting that he believes in a 'no surrender' policy where you must all get slaughtered if you are outmatched, or else you are not valiant enough. Kind of like Hilter. Wait a minute. Didn't he mention Hitler earlier?

 

[Minci]

HolyOne
-Did I ever said that Magyars or any other nation are turk?
-Did I ever said that Turks are the greatest
-Did I ever said that Turks did rule the whole world?
-Did I ever said that Turks are the best nation to enter civ?
-Did I ever said that you must stand in stunned silence in front of our culture?
-Did I ever said that Turks must be praised?
-Did I ever said that Fraxis is insulting us?

NO. HELL NO!!!!

- I said "If they did this on purpose, it is an insult and I dont know if it is on purpose or not", then I assumed that they did this on random and a mistake.

- I gave you reasons about Atilla. He and his damn aristocracy spoke Turkish , showed you source.

- I said Mongols and Turks are from different Tribes but can be could be counted as one it the very very old history, not now.

- I said Turks had one of the greatest hitories and culture. You can count 20 or 50 if you like in the list and put Turks to the last but I only said you cant push Turks out.

- I said Turks only dominated the known world for 200 years and payed credit to Romans, English and Americans for their bigger succes in doing that.
I only tried to explain you our culture.

Holyone - Sorry about your country and what our Turkis Empire did to it but many other nations did same on us like Greece or Mongolians and Crusades and it is not a reason for hostility in todays world.
I protest anyone who insult you in such a way too, but dont come to me because of a nuts person. I cant blame whole magyars because of an ignorant person as you cant blame me or my ppl because of an ignorant person.

"The Sick Person of Europe" A disintegrateing and impotent empire. Would have collapsed much sooner if the british and french had that interest. They saved your ass in the Crimean War from the russians. I'm pretty sure you learned this differently too.

And yes these are written in our books too. England, Russia and France couldnt get on an agreement on dividing our land so they didnt capture us. And yes they saved our little ass in Crimean war which is a part of my nations history as I accept it.

That's how your attitude looks from the outside

Because it doesnt pass a second that a bored man comes here and pick a part of my sentence to create an argue and start a debate about nonsense which makes me seem aggressive. And which left the thread forgotton.

Wodan - you totaly picked the debate from the wrong point. That insult word was used in a correct place but you must read it at there and dont spread it to the rest of the debate. It is about the purpose of the mistake. I understood your point and leave it like a mistake and the insult thing washed away as it came. Hope I didnt offend you in the course of the debate.

Blitzkrieg - Sorry mate. I really really didnt mean that and you know that. At least we understood each other at the end

Aelf - I didnt mean to insult any nation but my opinion to see any nation unsuccesful in any particular thing (not in general) is not an insult as long as it lasts locally and this forum thread is a local place like 1000-2000 views mostly for a thread. For example, us, Turks are very unsuccesful in ruling an empire. You can see it in Turkey or in Ottoman Empire.

About the Atilla Debate - I cant find his passport and nobody can give a straight answer to his nationality, but as long as wikipedia says and I know he and his liteunants (aristocracy) were speaking Turkish which gives some sense.

About the American Debate - They are the strongest and most powerful civ of our time. No debate would be close to any succes to disprove this. I dont belive that they are disrespectful ppl. Sorry Wodan but i cant belive that while i have so many friends from USA.

ShannonCT - Thanks for your opinions. I hope I didnt break your heart in anyway. I hope while debating with you, debating about nonsense with others didnt make me aggressive and offend or hurt you.

Sirford - same for you as the ShannonCT. Thank you.

Revolutionary - Thanx for the info about Aztechs, but check wiki. They are called Aztechs till the Alliance. Debate is going if it would be Mexicos or Aztechs. And thanx for the info about huns. Wiki doesnt cover the Asian Hun Empire. May be its name is different in English. We are not talking about the same Empire.

I apology to anyone, whom I seem to offend or hurt his feelings. I assure you I didnt do on purpose. May be we did misunderstood each other or the side Debates made me aggressive or disturbed my focus on the thread.

I am out of this forum. Have a nice life and take care.
Thank you for giving your time to answer me.

 

[Revolutionary]

We feel uncomfortable about your guys making fun about everything and want some respect and when I talk about it I am just ranting or I am a blasphemer.

maybe that one guy makes fun of everything but most Americans don't

Didnt you guys think that I was just making a little fun by calling America not a nation and relax? NO!!!
You are as sensitive as I am when it comes to a soft part but at least I have some respect and I didnt mean it and I said that I am sorry!!!.

no because you're not the first foreigner to insult Americans on these boards and you won't be the last, it happens all the time and this includes people from other western nations, and yet I never see Americans insulting Turks here so it is very different.

I dont belive that Americans make fun of everything because I have many American friends with whom I can talk and argue and who show respect to other ppls beliefs and cultures.

ok good

Your popular culture could be fun there, and swallowing every culture may look fine out there but not here.

what?

SO STOP CONVERTING THIS TREAD TO AN AMERICAN-EASTERN CULTURE WAR AGAIN.

where is the culture war in this thread?

Because we dont feel the way you feel and I am just trying to explain you this.
I am trying to find a centeral point where both you can still have your fun and I can still feel respected, but know that, you just want to take all you want and dont give a damn piece of thing.

show me where Americans have disrespected Turks, I would say the game makers showed Turks alot of respect to include them in the game, not naming them Turkish Empire is just an oversight

and many other American games have included Turks in the original release, like Age of Empires and Rise of Nations etc.

NO this is not arrogance. This is irreverence and it is worse than arrogance!!!

You accept that you are irreverent, and hereby I want you to stop that and pay some respect. I dont care about you ppls feelings and I wont try to change them because I respect the way you feel and your culture but feel your irreverence elsewhere

just that one poster used irreverent so I'll assume you just mean him

but don't group us all together, and don't assume that the culture "feels" that way

I don't see anywhere in American culture thats disrespectful to others

 

[HolyOne]

I have been reading this thread since the beginning. I just summarized the feelings I got from the posts, the way I interpreted them. Perhaps you didn't write "Turks are the greatest", but I got this impression from whatever you wrote instead. I did write though, that if you did not do this willingly, perhaps you did something wrong, perhaps you should try a different approach. I could also be wrong, but since other people had similar reactions it is not likely the case.
You did not write that we are turks, I too didn't say that. That nonsense of Tahnkout was just an emotional component in the whole reason, why I wrote that long post.

I was still typing when you gave the sources on Attila.
Anything I read about the huns, start like this: "We don't know where they are from, but probably north of China..." And there you come saying 100% sure that he (Attila) was turk and spoke turkish. This goes against all my knowledge on him, so don't blame me if I manage your statements with restraint. But, if it satisfies you, I seriously considered your reasons, and reconsidered my opinion. But I still support/find_more_likely the theory one of the posters stated: they are a mixture of people, with the name Hun.

I wonder if you know the saying: "It is not enough to be an honest person, you have to seem like one." I don't suppose you are an ignorant, schovinist person, but you sure did not give a positive impression about yourself to many posters. I hope we can work on that. Peace

 

[ZerrorR]

Do you take the idea from borders of my post? Turks wont be in the game because of Ataturk. Ataturk must be in the game because of Turks. Now get the idea? I dont know Tito and I won't dare to speak about his deeds or compare him but I would recommend you to do like that too.

I will try to translate some sayings about Ataturk from other important people.
I tried to find some info about Tito but could only find a cronology and it was full of everything, his visits, his speeches. Can you tell a site where I can find a more useful and short chronology or biography to learn more about him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

oh God, please stop! Everyone!!! I have gone to posting war over my country, too. It isn't fun.

The fact is everyone's history books are different in some way about many things.

Wikipedia is not the end-all-be-all of knowledge, although usually a very credible source.

Everone's culture no matter how great/mighty or small/less known deserves some degree of respect.

Fanaticism in any form (whether or not you see it as fanaticism) will never help a discussion. If a person reacts using emotion and pride, there leaves little room for a coherent discussion. (I have fallen victim to this, too as you all have probably read somewhere in the forums .)

Attacking (or even seeming to attack) someone who obviously is reacting based on emotion and pride is never a way to steer the conversation back onto rational lines.

Insults are the best way to prove yourself rediculous (once again, reference previous posts of mine sorry to kcBrett)

I am going to adapt all of these thoughts into all of my posts from now on, as I feel I have learned to step back and take a look at things a little more objectively on these forums. (Thanks to Wodan for that).

-1-

 

[drkodos]

Two words:

Midnight Express

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^ NICE!!! What a reference!

 

[Swedishguy]

One word between Turks and Americans: It doesn't matter if neither Turks nor Americans are in the game; what matters is that the game is fun!

E.g. if I want to play as Sweden I play Europa Universalis. But now I want to play for fun, so I play as the Incans, which I have scarce thoughts about whatsoever. It doesn't matter, it is the gameplay it's all about!

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Agreed, I've never used the Americans. Though I may try them in the future, I don't really like their trait combinations.

 

[SniperRedFox]

I think he is just wanting a linkage between the modern nation of Turkey that has very little world recognition and the ancient Ottoman Empire which was very successful...

By his logic, if you speak a language, and are a part decendant of an area, then you are a member of that nation or your nation is a part of that nation...
So by his logic, most Americans speak English, most early colonial Americans spoke English/Dutch/French/Spanish. We were founded by the British and gained land from the French and Spanish... Thus, we should called British Americans or Anglo Americans or something along those lines...

Listen, your logic is flawed. Just because you speak a language, have bloodlines from an area, and are associated with people who speak a language or are from an area doesn't make your nation the same as another nation.
Mexico isn't the same as Spain is it? Yet they speak similar languages, has somewhat similar cultures and most Mexicans have some percentage of Spanish blood. This doesn't make Mexico a Spanish country. It makes it Mexico.

Just because Atilla was part Turkish (technically Turkic, different than Turkish) and had aristocrats that were part Turkic or were Turkic doesn't mean the Huns were a Turkish nation. The Huns were a melting pot of nations, Turkic, Mongolian, Eurasian, etc...

If the Huns were Turkish, then Americans are British.

 

[Swedishguy]

Sweden is about 10% immigrants! What does that prove? Nothing.

 

[Agarwaen]

Was once Persia and now is Iran!

Iran means "Land of Arians", Persia was never a local name.

 

[Pitboss]

Okay, I dont know if any other Turk posted this but, there isn't any civilization named Ottomans... Ottoman Empire was an Empire with the nationality of Turk.

That sure is one point of view. But in that time their was just no mentioning of "Turkish People". Why ? Because it's only from 1919, that the people their started "wearing" the name and nationality of Turc.

If you compare to every other civ in the game, they're all founded before 1800.
Besides nations names, and nationality are as volatile as air, trough time nations come and go. So don't fixate on the names, but on the people.

And about STALIN... If there is Stalin, where is Hitler? If I know wrong, correct me but he did nearly as much slaughter as Hitler.

This is a discussion that could go on and on for a long time, but it's made clear that Hitler will not be included in the game, for several reasons.
Moral/ethical (even though he was in a scenario in civ2), and financial (it would be against the law in Germany)
But you can always add it yourself, by adding a leaderhead.

And I do agree, that if you compare the numbers they are pretty even. (holocaust vs goulag)
But it's the same thing with this question, as with the one above.
It's all seen from a certain angle.