It wasn't only in Haditha...

[Neomega]

Let me ask you a question. Imagine you are pulling duty at a checkpoint such as these, possibly at night. You know full well that fellow soldiers have been killed by insurgents rushing checkpoints previously. There are signs for several hundred meters before the point, writtin in Iraqi that tells people of the checkpoint ahead, to slow down and stop.

You get a car that doesnt slow down. It is headed at the checkpoint at a high rate of speed. You will only have mere seconds to react to this possible threat. What do you do?
But apparently you do. Do innocent people get killed sometimes? Yup. But if those innocent people do not heed the warnings posted, exactly how is a soldier supposed to determine what is a true threat and what is simply a misunderstanding? The answer is a soldier has to consider all such disregard of warning as a threat, to do any less would simply allow our soldiers to be killed more effectively by the enemy.

All I asked was "is every single one of them the truth"

Apparently you believe so.

Bottom line, I dont believe that soldiers randomly shoot up vehicles at checkpoints and kill civilians for giggles.

Did you watch the video?

Here it is again:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5177956987382860214

 

[MobBoss]

All I asked was "is every single one of them the truth"

Apparently you believe so.

No, I dont think so. However, I do believe that 99.9% of them are most likely truthful. Just like statistically the 7 or so marines out of the 1 million+ that have served over there isnt "all of them" either.

Did you watch the video?

Here it is again:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5177956987382860214

And you, yourself said that these were NOT American soldiers: There is a video on the internet of a British contractors working for Aegis just driving around town, shooting up civilian cars, for no reason at all, Watch it here: so dont blame the American military for this one.

 

[nonconformist]

Let me ask you a question. Imagine you are pulling duty at a checkpoint such as these, possibly at night. You know full well that fellow soldiers have been killed by insurgents rushing checkpoints previously. There are signs for several hundred meters before the point, writtin in Iraqi that tells people of the checkpoint ahead, to slow down and stop.

You get a car that doesnt slow down. It is headed at the checkpoint at a high rate of speed. You will only have mere seconds to react to this possible threat. What do you do?

I expect I'd say to myself "I'm a soldier, and I joined the army knowing full well that I'm supposed to die if I have to, and if those poeple in those cars are civilians, then I have no business shooting at them".

 

[Moss]

I expect I'd say to myself "I'm a soldier, and I joined the army knowing full well that I'm supposed to die if I have to, and if those poeple in those cars are civilians, then I have no business shooting at them".

Again, not defending certain actions by our military, but not ever civilian looking person driving a car is innocent...in fact, many aren't...car bombs are quite frequent, as are suicide bombers.

 

[nonconformist]

Again, not defending certain actions by our military, but not ever civilian looking person driving a car is innocent...in fact, many aren't...car bombs are quite frequent, as are suicide bombers.

And that's the risk you take joining the amry.

It's not playschool, they're given guns, and have insurance on their body parts for a reason.

 

[Moss]

So, if you were a soldier, and you thought your life was threatened...you'd just stand back and let that suicide bomber blow him or herself up right in front of you without doing anything?

Edit: And you don't join the military to die, you join the military to protect a nation, follow orders, and do whatever it is you can do to accomplish your mission...dying doesn't help that at all...

 

[MobBoss]

I expect I'd say to myself "I'm a soldier, and I joined the army knowing full well that I'm supposed to die if I have to, and if those poeple in those cars are civilians, then I have no business shooting at them".

Your answer is not sufficent to answer the question. How does one determine "if" the people in the car are civilians or "if" they are insurgents when the car itself is turned into a weapon by a bomb inside?

And once more, people dont join the military "expecting" to die. Our leadership recommends avoiding that outcome at all costs.

 

[Sidhe]

I expect I'd say to myself "I'm a soldier, and I joined the army knowing full well that I'm supposed to die if I have to, and if those poeple in those cars are civilians, then I have no business shooting at them".

It's not that easy though, how do you know the car that drives up next is full of civilians or full of terrorists? It must be very difficult to make a snapshot decision in those circumstances. I know that's what there there to do but it can't be an easy situation to be in, imagine the first time your on patrol you gotta be pretty scared unless your nuts.

Nuts Mob boss beat me too it WHS ^^^

 

[nonconformist]

So, if you were a soldier, and you thought your life was threatened...you'd just stand back and let that suicide bomber blow him or herself up right in front of you without doing anything?

Maybe I, as a nationalist, am biased, but I don't particularly see suicide bombing as a wrong.

Edit: And you don't join the military to die, you join the military to protect a nation, follow orders, and do whatever it is you can do to accomplish your mission...dying doesn't help that at all...

Well, that's realpolitik, isn't it?
But once you get into that real, you get into the realm of "wait a minute-isn't an attack on US/UK/whatever soil legitimate?"

 

[nonconformist]

It's not that easy though, how do you know the car that drives up next is full of civilians or full of terrorists? It must be very difficult to make a snapshot decision in those circumstances. i know thta's what there there to do but it can't be an easy situation to be in, imagine the first time your on patrol you gotta be pretty scared unless your nuts.

Then don't join the army.

 

[MobBoss]

Maybe I, as a nationalist, am biased, but I don't particularly see suicide bombing as a wrong.

Is it by any chance because you are Irish?

Just kidding of course.

 

[Neomega]

No, I dont think so. However, I do believe that 99.9% of them are most likely truthful. Just like statistically the 7 or so marines out of the 1 million+ that have served over there isnt "all of them" either.

Then we are agreed. However, how come no soldier has ever been found culpable, especially in the Italian Agent's case. You actually think an Italian Agent escorting a journalist would rush an American roadblock?

The Italian government doesn't think so.

And you, yourself said that these were NOT American soldiers: There is a video on the internet of a British contractors working for Aegis just driving around town, shooting up civilian cars, for no reason at all, Watch it here: so dont blame the American military for this one.

I am not blaming the American military for thisone, but I do think it shows how it is possible for Western professionals to shoot up the civilian populace for fun.

 

[nonconformist]

Is it by any chance because you are Irish?

Just kidding of course.

The Irish don't suicide bomb, as far as I know.

However, I was at a birthday party in Befast the other day. I can safely say, that was the fstest game of Pass the Parcel I ever saw

 

[MobBoss]

Then we are agreed. However, how come no soldier has ever been found culpable, especially in the Italian Agent's case. You actually think an Italian Agent escorting a journalist would rush an American roadblock?

The Italian government doesn't think so.

When did James Bond ever drive slow or obey local traffic law? And also, you assume that the Agent driving the car knew it was an American roadblock - perhaps he thought it to be Iraqi or an Insurgent roadblock? But, to be honest, I find it far more plausible to believe a undercover italian agent speeding to get a resuced hostage out of a danger zone ignoring checkpoints, than to believe that US troops randomly happened to shoot up the car containing the special agent and the rescued hostage.

And why should a US Soldier be held culpable if he indeed obeyed orders and the rules of force and engaged a potentially hostile vehicle with deadly force?

I am not blaming the American military for thisone, but I do think it shows how it is possible for Western professionals to shoot up the civilian populace for fun.

My only pertinent comment on this would be if they truly are shooting up a civilian populace "for fun" they are not very professional in my personal opinion.

 

[Sidhe]

Then don't join the army.

Well no s**t Sherlock, but if the training isn't up to standard your a liability over there, and I'm not sure troops are trained to face the sorts of situations there in atm. Although I'm being a bit specualtive here. I just can't see policing and terrorist/insurgent identification as a high priority in basic training. Maybe it should be? Anyone know what the deal is with the troop training atm? Maybe they should be sending MP out there. Seems more apt for the situation.

 

[blackheart]

My only pertinent comment on this would be if they truly are shooting up a civilian populace "for fun" they are not very professional in my personal opinion.

That really doesn't matter though, seeing as how they were hired because they ARE professionals suited for that situation.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

I keep reading the title as "Hadith" and thinking that this thread concerns Islam.

 

[.Shane.]

When did James Bond ever drive slow or obey local traffic law?

Wait, did the US shoot James Bond, too?

MobBoss, please stop starting these rumors that are insulting to our men in uniform!

<please don't hate me as much>

At the least it would mean an end to those crappy movies.

 

[MobBoss]

Wait, did the US shoot James Bond, too?

MobBoss, please stop starting these rumors that are insulting to our men in uniform!

<please don't hate me as much>

At the least it would mean an end to those crappy movies.

Well, we tried, but he pwnzerd us noo0bs. But really consider the facts that we know. The agent was Italian. Itlalians are notorius for driving fast. He was also a secret agent. Secret Agents are cool as we all know. Its cool for Secret Agents to drive fast. Especially with a woman in the car. Double especially if the woman was hurt like this one was. How much for evidence do we need? I mean wowzers.

 

[malclave]

I wish the Iraqies good look in their struggle for freedom. If I could I would donate money to them.

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.results&keyword_list=Iraq

I'm sure any of the charities on this page, or others that can be found by searching, would appreciate your donation.