Italian scientists guilty of manslaughter after failing to warn about earthquake

[Kozmos]

I told you we should just detach Italy from Europe with explosives.

 

[Lillefix]

I know nothing about EU law, but you'd think that a EU appeals court would strike this down

I'm not sure anything like that exists(there is some EU court but apparently that is concerned with EU law), but there is another court in Strasbourg concerned with human rights, which they can appeal to in last instance(and this one is completely independent of the EU, which is something some people pretend to forget).

 

[Grendeldef]

Only in Italy should be the European equivalent to only in Florida.

To be fair to the Italians it's a quite diverse country. The crossing from North to South is huge demarcation line going roughly over Rome. A moronic decision nevertheless.

If every geologist can be indicted and tried for such a thing, we're going down the road to hell.

Yup, and later down the road meteorologists are joining the gang because of inability to precisely predict excessive rainfall which can cause floods.

G

 

[Borachio]

What'll happen to economists?!!!!!

 

[Andvare]

Bizarre to say the least. Grossly unfair.

That said, the scientists did commit a mistake, and thus a reprimand was probably deserved, After all, this is what he said:



To say "there is no danger" is indeed giving out false information. He should just have said "the situation looks favorable, BUT there's no way to be certain".

But of course going to jail over this is outrageous, and 6 years in jail for this is plain lunacy and they should indeed appeal to a human rights court.

Edit: and reading more through the article it does seem that the other scientists all warned that an earthquake could not be ruled out. So this is even more unfair than I previously thought.

No, not even if they had said that there were no possibility of a strong earthquake, should they be reprimanded.
They should be reprimanded if they ever claimed to be able to predict an earthquake, because that just cannot be done yet. But only in the realm of science.
They have no responsibility for shoddy construction, lacking construction laws, the failure of the emergency system due to corruption and incompetence of the officials or in any other way responsible for any death, injury or property damage occurred.

This is clearly an attempt to shift the blame from a corrupt failure of a system, to innocent scapegoats.

Even without Berlusconi, Italy continues to be the corrupt clown prince of Europe.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Italy is a ridiculous country.

I hear it is also home to a deranged, elderly virgin with millions of dollars who claims to be infallible.

 

[Leoreth]

To be fair to the Italians it's a quite diverse country. The crossing from North to South is huge demarcation line going roughly over Rome. A moronic decision nevertheless.

I don't know. L'Aquila is north of Rome. Lega Nord is also from the north.

Italy is a ridiculous country.

I hear it is also home to a deranged, elderly virgin with millions of dollars who claims to be infallible.

I think it is furthermore home to a deranged, elderly lech with billions of dollars, who also claims to be infallible.

 

[Borachio]

What? Wait. Who is this deranged, elderly virgin? Can you arrange to introduce me to her?

Money is no attraction to me, of course. I'm above all that. But if she really is infallible, I'm in there. It's a certain thing.

 

[Flying Pig]

What? Wait. Who is this deranged, elderly virgin? Can you arrange to introduce me to her?

He's out of your league, as it were.

 

[Borachio]

He? He?

Well, OK. I'll have to let that one go then.

 

[Leoreth]

He's also committed in a long distance relationship.

 

[Borachio]

Really? So there's chance for me with this guy's bird then? Who is she? He's not really interested, as he hasn't done it with her.

 

[innonimatu]

No, not even if they had said that there were no possibility of a strong earthquake, should they be reprimanded.
They should be reprimanded if they ever claimed to be able to predict an earthquake, because that just cannot be done yet. But only in the realm of science.

Their responsibility was not merely scientific. They accepted a role of civil protection advisers and deliberately influenced people to disregard tremors that would otherwise have them stay out of their dangerous buildings. When in doubt don't shoot off your mouth just to do favors for local politicians. Even though many scientists took a corporate approach to this and stated their backing for these italians such a position is far from unanimous. No one wants to say so publicly but there are at least some who think that they did was wrong (but not wrong enough to deserve such jail sentences). Though the blame rests primarily with the local politician who convened the meeting and talked to the media.

In Britain, a higher court can and often will totally overturn a 'guilty' or 'not guilty' verdict - the court will in effect be saying that the lower court interpreted the law incorrectly. I'm certain that this is the same in Italy.

Not so in most of the civil law systems. Though the higher court can throw away the whole case if it rules that the lower court misapplied the law: so in the end it's not that different.

 

[Leoreth]

Really? So there's chance for me with this guy's bird then? Who is she? He's not really interested, as he hasn't done it with her.

Oh, he's very interested, it's just things getting in the way of direct contact (they talk to each other a lot, though. It's a rather platonic relationship).

As for his partner, the last time he got involved with someone it was adultery, and let's just say he didn't take good care of the resulting son until his unfortunate end.

 

[Borachio]

"As for his partner, the last time he.." So this guy in Italy is having a platonic homosexual relationship long distance. What? By e-mail?

So where's this bird I can get interested in, then? There must be one spare somewhere. I can feel it in my bones. And I'm very sympathetic with older women. I'm known for it, in fact.

 

[GoodGame]

I'm skeptical of the charges of manslaughter being appropriate, since no real action was was done by scientists. The scientists may perhaps be guilty (no opinion on my part) of negligence of official duties in some capacity, which may/may not warrant a similar punishment, however I don't see the grounds for the charge of manslaughter. It seems like the justice system had a punishment in mind first, and then concocted a charge so the punishment would fit the charge. Quite possibly the punishment was planned with politics in mind.

A great point:

"If the scientific community is to be penalised for making predictions that turn out to be incorrect, or for not accurately predicting an event that subsequently occurs, then scientific endeavour will be restricted to certainties only and the benefits that are associated with findings from medicine to physics will be stalled."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20025626

Also excellent point above from Andvare that the state of preparedness supposedly was firmly on the scientists and not on building codes, etc... That further suggests politicians concocted this case to spare public opinions of themselves. Quite evil!

 

[Leoreth]

"As for his partner, the last time he.." So this guy in Italy is having a platonic homosexual relationship long distance. What? By e-mail?

By e-mail

No, the communication is mainly vocal, I think.

 

[Borachio]

Well, it can't be such a long distance affair, then, can it?

But forget them two old geezers. Let them get on with whatever. Where's this tasty bird you've got lined up for me?

 

[Andvare]

Their responsibility was not merely scientific. They accepted a role of civil protection advisers and deliberately influenced people to disregard tremors that would otherwise have them stay out of their dangerous buildings.

I disagree. Unless they did more than advise the government, their responsibility is not more than scientific.
If they did not warn of the inherent uncertainty in earthquake predictions, then they might be responsible for poor advise. But that is the limit of their responsibility. Earthquakes, like volcano eruptions, are notoriously difficult (read impossible) to predict.

When in doubt don't shoot off your mouth just to do favors for local politicians. Even though many scientists took a corporate approach to this and stated their backing for these italians such a position is far from unanimous. No one wants to say so publicly but there are at least some who think that they did was wrong (but not wrong enough to deserve such jail sentences). Though the blame rests primarily with the local politician who convened the meeting and talked to the media.

Absolutely.

 

[Crezth]

They accepted a role of civil protection

Is that in the job description?