As is Northern California, and the Pacific Northwest, and... heck, if you happen to live anywhere on the Pacific Coast of the US, a massive Earthquake is probably imminent.
Scientists in Italy go on trial for failing to predict earthquake
- Thread starter Disgustipated
- Start date
As is Northern California, and the Pacific Northwest, and... heck, if you happen to live anywhere on the Pacific Coast of the US, a massive Earthquake is probably imminent.
Saying that isn't helping your case at all.
TopGearFanatic
Duke of St. Louis
Let's not forget the New Madrid fault in the U.S. Midwest
Because there isn't much point - you don't hire a doctor to tell you that YOU COULD HAVE AN BRAIN ANEURYSM AND DIE INSTANTLY AT ANY TIME.
_random_
Jewel Runner
I come from a country where many public officials advocate teaching Creationism in public schools, and I'm shocked by the scientific ignorance of the Italian government.
Sofista
Deity
Fot that matter, I come from a country where creationism in schools is treated as a fayritale, and, just for one thing, no abortionist has ever been killed. Just to say.
On a general matter: I do recall months ago a question, asking if posters thought their country was not discussed enough.
The level of discussion prevalent (I will clarify, prevalent, not unanimous) in this topic confirms to me that this is just not the place.
On a general matter: I do recall months ago a question, asking if posters thought their country was not discussed enough.
The level of discussion prevalent (I will clarify, prevalent, not unanimous) in this topic confirms to me that this is just not the place.
Verbose
Deity
Tried to read up on this on the web, the Italian parts. As Arwon said: "There must be more to this story." Well, there might be, but my Italian is rusty at best (and largely cobble together using a bridge of French and Latin anyway), so perhaps some of the posters of the Italian persuasion might rectify and clarify if I've been getting the wring impression?
Anyway, there might be more to the story, though not necessarily prettyfying it. It seems under Italian geologist/Captain of Science Enzo Boschi (main man up on charges here) has been erecting a world-unique effing huge publicly funded national seismic survey center.
Possible problem 1:
Boschi seems prone to run this publicly funded organisation as his personal property? Even before this there seems to have been astonishing reports of Boschi threatening that "his" organisation was going to withhold relevant seismic data from the public. He apparently wasn't happy with how it got covered in the media. I.e. there might be a previous track record indicating why this prominent scientist doesn't seem to be implicitly trusted, with things coming to a head with this quake and its aftermath.
Possible problem 2:
At least one newspaper article speculated that part of the problem is infighting between government services. Boschi's seismic stuff is outside the jurisdiction of the large (and actually very efficient) Italian rescue service. I t seems the two organisations (their leaders?) have had run-inns before. Newspaper speculation being that this latest development might be part of an attempt to curb Boschi's "empire" and get it in under the rescue service. Which if true isn't pretty at all, but might explain some of it?
Now I'm really curious if I've been getting the right impression, if someone can confirm?
Anyway, there might be more to the story, though not necessarily prettyfying it. It seems under Italian geologist/Captain of Science Enzo Boschi (main man up on charges here) has been erecting a world-unique effing huge publicly funded national seismic survey center.
Possible problem 1:
Boschi seems prone to run this publicly funded organisation as his personal property? Even before this there seems to have been astonishing reports of Boschi threatening that "his" organisation was going to withhold relevant seismic data from the public. He apparently wasn't happy with how it got covered in the media. I.e. there might be a previous track record indicating why this prominent scientist doesn't seem to be implicitly trusted, with things coming to a head with this quake and its aftermath.
Possible problem 2:
At least one newspaper article speculated that part of the problem is infighting between government services. Boschi's seismic stuff is outside the jurisdiction of the large (and actually very efficient) Italian rescue service. I t seems the two organisations (their leaders?) have had run-inns before. Newspaper speculation being that this latest development might be part of an attempt to curb Boschi's "empire" and get it in under the rescue service. Which if true isn't pretty at all, but might explain some of it?
Now I'm really curious if I've been getting the right impression, if someone can confirm?
Those "scientist" said that would NOT happened.
So...
I hire a doctor to do a accurate check up about the possibility to get one, the dude do it, get my money and say "don't worry, you are ok".
And if get one a few day later there is no blame?
I dunno what kind of doctor you have...
Again.
The precise accusation is that they did a crappy esamination and ignored the possibile danger.
Verbose
Deity
Same as yours no doubt, and that kind of thing happens all the time.
Person comes in with some kind of cardiac episode. Checks and tests are run, the person is admitted for observation, in a day or two the episode has passed, there is literally nothing to see or observe in the form of symptoms to suggest anything, and so the patient is discharged and sent home. The next day said person has a massive coronary and dies.
My dad's a specialist cardiologist, head of department. That write up was of a situation the other year, after which the family of the deceased put him up on charges as responsible for their mother, in her 80's, death.
End result? The complaint was dismissed. There was literally no clinical indication the patient would ever again experience that kind of episode of cardiac arythmia, and it wasn't linked to any other symptoms that would indicate she wouldn't be just fine once the episode had passed. The hospital had no cause to keep her — in fact had her doctors decided to keep her regardless, they could have been up for charges of wasting public funds.
Moral of the story: "Feces" happens. And sometimes it happens with no actual prior warning, even if that might seem hard to stomach when one sees the outcome retrospectively.
That's not to say what these seismologists concluded shouldn't be vetted by something like an independent commission — heck, with a bit of decency they should be the ones calling for it — i.e. something like the medical boards looking into possible malpractice. But there's a reason it tends not be done as a criminal investigation procedure until some kind of professional negligence has been established.
Communisto
Condottiere
I love the old country. What do you expect from Italy? Sense?
aelf
Ashen One
Well, there's another Italian poster on OT who doesn't seem to understand how science works, insisting that people need to have done their own experiments before they can say that something is scientifically proven. Maybe you guys aren't religious in a nutty way but don't have a good understanding of science nevertheless?
Please. That doesn't deter the Polish.
Sofista
Deity
Enzo Boschi leads since 1999 the INGV, National Institute of Geophysics and Vulcanology. INGV was created in the 30's to study possible natural catastrophes concerning Italy, an idea of Guglielmo Marconi.
In 1985 Boschi raised an earthquake alarm, first and so far only instance in Italy, claiming a big event was to happen very soon in an area of the Tuscan Appennines. 100 000 people were evacuated for nothing.
On withholding data, I don't know before the l'Aquila quake, but he definitely threatened not to further publish earthquake data on the internet last september. His colleagues are the first to vent indignation that he wants to use public money to not do what the institute should.
INGV is under the National Research Council, and deals with our Protezione Civile (which, en.wiki explains, "outlines all the facilities and activities used by the state to protect the sake of life, the properties, the settlements and the environment from damages and dangers caused by natural catastrophes") constantly: the infamous reunion of 31 march was indeed called by Bertolaso, head of Protezione Civile (he retired last november).
Bertolaso after the event tried to wrest from Boschi the monitoring of seismic activity, but failed.
According to Bertolaso, Boschi was of the opinion that no earthquake stronger that those registered in the period before the event would happen. Boschi replied that it would have been absurd on his part to deny the chance of a strong event in Abruzzo, called the 31/3 reunion "absolutely irritual" and claimed that he was given the record to sign only after the catastrophe had happened.
Take your pick, although I personally wonder if the chance of an earthquake didn't demand a discussion, red tape be damned, and why would he have signed something he did not approve, especially after the fact.
Bertolaso's successor, for the record, just yesterday was saying that it's easy to crucify Boschi and his colleagues, and that he thought local administrators who did nothing to check buildings stability in the area for years were really to blame.
To further clarify, this is not a government action. The news these days have all been about the electoral clash for the post of mayor of Milan, Naples and Turin (among others). This inquiry is wholly the initiative of the judiciary, specifically the attorney's office of l'Aquila.
LucyDuke
staring at the clock
Then they and anyone who believed them needs to go back to school. (I'd like to see the proclamation, btw, if you can get that. I'm sure it's archived somewhere.)
Yes.
Because.
YOU CANNOT PREDICT THESE THINGS.
So basically you want to try someone for manslaughter because he says "X will not happen" rather than "There is no evidence that X will happen"?
bestrfcplayer
Steppin' up!
Nuff said.
LucyDuke
staring at the clock
I give up. What you want is impossible.
Nuff said.
No matter how much New Jerseyites may seem like Italians, they aren't. Guidos in particular, who belong to a subhuman species known as "Shorius Douchius" cannot be considered more than loosely related to Italians.
Could one of the Italian members clarify how your judicial system works?
From SA
http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...gists-manslaughter-trial-bad-quake-prediction
As I read that, it says judges play the part of a grand jury in the US: prosecutor takes a case to a judge, and the judge decides if there is or is not merit to the government's claim. Is that correct?
If so, is it a rubber stamp procedure, or do judges routinely dismiss crazy cases (regardless if you think the case detailed in this thread is crazy or not)?
From SA
http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...gists-manslaughter-trial-bad-quake-prediction
As I read that, it says judges play the part of a grand jury in the US: prosecutor takes a case to a judge, and the judge decides if there is or is not merit to the government's claim. Is that correct?
If so, is it a rubber stamp procedure, or do judges routinely dismiss crazy cases (regardless if you think the case detailed in this thread is crazy or not)?
woody60707
Deity
They should tie a stone around the their feet, and throw them in a lake. If they don't sink, you know they are a scientist, and should burn them.
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