It's here - Turkey is allowed to join EU

[AVN]

It is amazing how one-sided positive you see the Czech Republic. You must walk around with closed eyes in your own country.

Have you visited the country to get some impression what's happening there ?
Can you backup your claim that a country as the Czech republic is full of thieves ?

All your babble about other Eastern Europeans being responsible for crime and whatever in the former CSSR is simply TOO FUNNY.

He didn't claim that, although if Winner claims that 50% of the crime in CZ is done by other Eastern Euopeans I like to see that he backups that claim too.

Then you make wrong statements about Czechs and whatever not being allowed to work in Germany.

Can you please elaborate on this.

Idealism and Imagination are good things, you are probably DREAMING of an European Union the way you want it. Better do not wake up.

I wish you a bit more realism for your idealist views. Then I would not have to be so cynical after reading such stuff!!!

You will be surprised but I believe in a similar sort of EU as Winner.
And I don't think it's only a dream.

 

[Winner]

It is amazing how one-sided positive you see the Czech Republic. You must walk around with closed eyes in your own country.

No, only when I talk with some arrogant westerners who call my country the nest of crime and poverty, I am a little bit annoyed.

All your babble about other Eastern Europeans being responsible for crime and whatever in the former CSSR is simply TOO FUNNY.

Maybe you find that funny, but it is true. I don't blame them as a source of all crime, but practically all organised crime here is made by ukrainian immigrants (ukrainian mafia). Czech mafias were almost crushed The overall level of crime is a little bit higher than in Germany, but not so high as you are trying to tell me. You view us like some nations of thiefs and this really upsets me.

Then you make wrong statements about Czechs and whatever not being allowed to work in Germany.

Wrong? I wouldn't say that. They can work there, but not as other members of EU can. They have the same conditions as for example Ukrainians or Chinese have. Therefore one of fundamental rights of EU citizens doesn't apply to Czechs, Poles and so on. As I said - second-class membership.

Idealism and Imagination are good things, you are probably DREAMING of an European Union the way you want it. Better do not wake up.

Man, I am really not any idealist. I study IR and therefore I cannot even be. I've seen some portion of Europe and I know how it works. So spare you wishes for someone else.[/QUOTE]

 

[Winner]

He didn't claim that, although if Winner claims that 50% of the crime in CZ is done by other Eastern Euopeans I like to see that he backups that claim too.

This would be very hard, it is based on everyday experience. As I already wrote, mainly organised crime is made by balkan or ukrainian-russian mafias. But this is problem of Western Europe also, IMO.

 

[AVN]

This would be very hard, it is based on everyday experience. As I already wrote, mainly organised crime is made by balkan or ukrainian-russian mafias. But this is problem of Western Europe also, IMO.

If you can't backup that claim you shouldn't say that IMHO.
You felt offended when Longasc said that Eastern European countries are full of thieves, something I can understand.
But then you shouldn't make similar statements about other Eastern European people, unless you can backup it of course.

And I believe you are not able to do that.

 

[Winner]

If you can't backup that claim you shouldn't say that IMHO.
You felt offended when Longasc said that Eastern European countries are full of thieves, something I can understand.
But then you shouldn't make similar statements about other Eastern European people, unless you can backup it of course.

And I believe you are not able to do that.

I agree it may sound bad I must say that 99% percent of Ukrainians here work very hard and are absolutely non-problematic people. But also criminals from former USSR used the opportunity and expanded to Central and Western Europe. Actually, who most suffer from these mafias are ukrainians, who are often blackmailed and abused.

 

[Longasc]

AVN, I am really not willing to back up and proof for you where you can meet czech whores right after the border and in what areas of Cheb you better do not walk alone or in small groups.

You may also continue to dream of Europa Utopia. I have a soft spot for dreamers.

 

[Winner]

But we should move the topic back to Turkey.

 

[Longasc]

I just felt the need to relativate some of my very bad views of Eastern Europe in so far that I really like Becherovka and the Casino in the Cheb.

 

[Winner]

AVN, I am really not willing to back up and proof for you where you can meet czech whores right after the border and in what areas of Cheb you better do not walk alone or in small groups.

You may also continue to dream of Europa Utopia. I have a soft spot for dreamers.

Yes, they are there. Because of German clients moving there by thousands. Demand always stimulates the offer

 

[AVN]

But we should move the topic back to Turkey.

OK, I respect that as a thread starter you want to keep this discussion on topic, but then you bring it off-topic again with this post.

Yes, they are there. Because of German clients moving there by thousands. Demand always stimulates the offer

So, what do you want ?
I'm quite confused now.

 

[Longasc]

No doubt about that. Is this really that funny?

Is it because their economic situation is so good that they are there to satisfy certain demands for little money?

And you wonder about my negative picture of Eastern Europe in general! I did not say it does not become better, but I am still no fan of the eastern expansion of the EU nor the EU itself!

I guess you will have to live with prejudice and simple-mindedness for decades, but do not question my negative experiences and impressions that I got over there. There were not only negative ones, and I am sorry if you cannot stand my quite arrogant statement about my personal view about economic standards and the standard of life in the former east bloc. I guess you heard even worse before, at least I assume that.

This was initially not directly aimed against the Czech Republic or its inhabitants, so please do not want me to talk more about this stuff.

 

[Winner]

OK, I respect that as a thread starter you want to keep this discussion on topic, but then you bring it off-topic again with this post.



So, what do you want ?
I'm quite confused now.

I cannot resist it, I am sorry

But I think it is over now.

 

[kronic]

You shouldn't wonder about Westerners being afraid of the weak economies in Eastern Europe. Their membership helps Western companies but not the Western people in the first place. You (Winner) may think that high wages and labour costs are bad from an abstract point of view, but they've been actually very good for the wealth of the people in Western Europe. This is what you should always keep in mind when thinking about why Westeners are often way reserved against the new members. The average worker in Western Europe certainly is the loser of the EU expansion.
Oh yeah, and I think in 10-15 years nobody (in Germany) will still whine about Eastern Europeans stealing our Mercedes' and BMWs since nobody here will have the money to buy such cars anymore.

 

[Winner]

You shouldn't wonder about Westerners being afraid of the weak economies in Eastern Europe. Their membership helps Western companies but not the Western people in the first place. You (Winner) may think that high wages and labour costs are bad from an abstract point of view, but they've been actually very good for the wealth of the people in Western Europe. This is what you should always keep in mind when thinking about why Westeners are often way reserved against the new members. The average worker in Western Europe certainly is the loser of the EU expansion.
Oh yeah, and I think in 10-15 years nobody (in Germany) will still whine about Eastern Europeans stealing our Mercedes' and BMWs since nobody here will have the money to buy such cars anymore.

I agree completely with you, but maybe i'll add: even when your companies move, their profits still flows to home coutries and here are they taxed. Therefore you still have chance to promote that parts of your economy, that can easily compete with cheaper Eastern Europe or China. This is the fate of developed countries - they have expensive labour and therefore their companies move out to developing countries. Their only chance is to export capital and knowledge. Germany should boost its research budget to compensate loses of jobs in less sophisticated branches of industry.

In fact (not talking to you now), the overall living standard here isn't so low as many westerners may think. For example i'll tell you about me I can say my family is slightly lower middle class in Czech republic. We live in smaller flat than average German, have only one TV not three, two computers, slower i-net connection, Skoda not BMW, in brief less comfort than common EU15 citizen. But if you live this way your entire life, you are satisfied with it.

The difference is obvious when I go to Strasbourg and want to buy something in the Christmas market here - it is about 3 or 4 times as expensive than a similar thing is in my home country.

But this all will improve with time, and I also believe Turkey can achieve this too. And as one man said in today's news on czech TV: "Show me one power, one empire to which is offered a big, developing country with 70 million people for no cost, that will refuse it." This is very... brutal sentence, but very true.

 

[AVN]

This BBC Article mentions that Austria and France will probably have referendums if Turkey can become a member of the EU once the negotiations are finished.

IMHO that can be quite a complicating factor. What to do when the other member states say yes, maybe even including the leaders of France, but the people of one of those two countries vote against it ?

I believe one referemdum in all 25 countries (or by then probably 28 countries) in which a simple majority of the voters decides would be much better.

 

[Winner]

<off topic>

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-12/16noll.cfm

- something about Israel possible accession to EU

</off topic>

 

[AVN]

<off topic>

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-12/16noll.cfm

- something about Israel possible accession to EU

</off topic>

I guess this is an Israeli dream, but I don't see this happen in the next 2 or 3 decades. ATM they have had a long term piece with the Palestinians for let's say a period of 20 years this discussion can be started IMHO.

 

[kryszcztov]

<off topic>

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-12/16noll.cfm

- something about Israel possible accession to EU

</off topic>

Thanks for giving us this link.

What an article full or crap. The argumentation is so weak - if the article actually supports Israel for the EU, I gave up the reading fairly quickly, the events described were just laughable (Sharon and Berlusconi, etc...).

What a real - crappy - paper. For me, Israel is the worst democratic nation on Earth, and they have nothing to do in the EU. Get lost !

 

[Winner]

Thanks for giving us this link.

What an article full or crap. The argumentation is so weak - if the article actually supports Israel for the EU, I gave up the reading fairly quickly, the events described were just laughable (Sharon and Berlusconi, etc...).

What a real - crappy - paper. For me, Israel is the worst democratic nation on Earth, and they have nothing to do in the EU. Get lost !

I posted it only because I was unable to find original Haaretz article. I don't agree with it either, because it is counting with accession WITH Occupied territories, and this is simply UNACCEPTABLE for EU.

But otherwise I would support it. It can join EU alongside Turkey - clear sign to the world that EU isn't christian, anti-muslim and anti-semitic club.

EDIT: Neutral info

F oreign Minister Silvan Shalom told a visiting European Union delegation on Tuesday that Israel was considering applying for membership of the bloc.

"Shalom said he is not excluding that this government will ask for full membership in the EU," said Marco Pannella, an Italian member of the European Parliament and president of the Transnational Radical Party.

A spokesman for Shalom confirmed the comments but said: "It doesn't mean he is preparing the dossier for applying tomorrow."

"In principle, the minister thinks a possibility exists for Israel to join the EU since Israel and Europe share similar economies and democratic values," he said.

Pannella, who is spearheading the initiative, told Reuters that support was growing in the European Parliament for Israel to join the EU but that it could take up to a decade to complete the process.

There is, however, little enthusiasm among EU member states for Israel to join. The EU is frustrated by Israel's reservations about the road map peace plan. It has also expressed concern at Israel's treatment of Palestinians and its military measures intended to quell the intifada.

 

[Winner]

I guess this is an Israeli dream, but I don't see this happen in the next 2 or 3 decades. ATM they have had a long term piece with the Palestinians for let's say a period of 20 years this discussion can be started IMHO.

By its nature, Israel is "european" country, and its ties with EU are deep. After problems with occupation are solved, Israel should join. In long term, it can be the best thing for Israel, because after deeper federalisation of EU, any attack on Israel would be an attack on entire EU.