[RD] JK Rowling and Explicit Transphobia

[Kyriakos]

You're adopting the tried-and-true method of cherry picking and then patting yourself on the back for being clever again, I see. Well, that's a waste of time, and I won't be engaging with it.

I was trying to engage in discussion. The prerequisite for that is not to agree with you, nor to focus on what specifically you have on your mind.
Equality before the law is an entirely different issue than just being hurt by some behavior, and the legal status of names obviously is important in regards to that insofar as one is arguing that deadnaming in this respect is different from name-calling.

 

[Synobun]

I was trying to engage in discussion. The prerequisite for that is not to agree with you, nor to focus on what specifically you have on your mind.
Equality before the law is an entirely different issue than just being hurt by some behavior, and the legal status of names obviously is important in regards to that insofar as one is arguing that deadnaming in this respect is different from name-calling.

Great! Read the rest of the post you cherry-picked from, then.

 

[Kyriakos]

Deadnaming is difficult to make a legal issue since the only people who'll know the before and after are people who directly know you or if you're a notorious figure (see: Chelsea Manning, who anti-trans people still take pleasure in calling Bradley and using he/him). As El Mac says, that's likely more under the purview of HR or exceptional cases where the thing you've applied to (like housing or schooling) has someone in charge who knows you.

Misgendering is easier, especially since many forms of ID include gender, and many organizations include gender and notes in their internal files. The police, in particular, are guilty of not respecting proper pronouns and trans issues. See: https://www.queensu.ca/humanrights/hrlg/meeting-headlines/meeting-20/dawson-v-vancouver-police

If you mean the above post.

You are no longer talking about official (state-sanctioned or allowed) deadnaming there. You are now talking about informal use of names (nothing to do with the state or law). In effect, it is a variation of name-calling, with the sub-category of namecalling in this case being defined by gender-related attitudes. While the subtype is its own thing, surely the overall category is still namecalling, no?

And I think it is clear that no one here is of the view that people should deadname anyone, or namecall in derogatory manner of other type. Sadly it happens, in all sorts of ways, eg some people hate people with large noses too, but large-nose calling isn't legally its own category carrying a specific sentence, while some large-nosed people may feel very offended by its use and it is not at all their fault they have a nose which can be identified as large either.

 

[El_Machinae]

Commenting on the size (or shape) of someone's nose can get you into legal trouble if it's used as a dog whistle and put into contexts where it passes into hate-speech

 

[Kyriakos]

Commenting on the size (or shape) of someone's nose can get you into legal trouble if it's used as a dog whistle and put into contexts where it passes into hate-speech

We are talking strictly about germanic large-nosed people.

 

[Crezth]

All this is logical, of course. Then again, it isn't logical to think that a terrible nickname or other offensive namecalling simply has to cause less harm to a person than dead-naming causes to a TG person. What I am saying is that bullying and jerkish behavior does happen, and while there can be special arguments used to present a subtype of it as worse than another subtype, this in no way actually takes into account the degree of harm to the person the name was used against.

Look, as far as I can tell all that's in contention is transpeople don't want to be deadnamed. I do not understand why that's controversial.

 

[civvver]

But but, my pain is real and needs to be validated! Someone called me a pussy last week and it hurt my feelings! Waahhhh

It's like all lives matter crap, sheesh. Yes obviously all lives matter, but the ones getting disproportionately murdered by police are black.

Us white cis straight people can't claim to know how awful or not awful deadnaming is since we've never experienced it. Let's go with what the victims tell us.

 

[Kyriakos]

Look, as far as I can tell all that's in contention is transpeople don't want to be deadnamed. I do not understand why that's controversial.

It's not at all controversial, and obviously I support that 100%.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Well, anyone can call you anything, but I thought you specifically made the point that the difference between deadnaming and general name-calling is how the law treats you. Regarding just the deadnaming part, though (ie the name the state identified you with), you can change your name to whatever and the state has to address you with that name you provided them with.

Many countries have restrictive laws on naming including that your name must be appropriate for your birth sex or must come from a state approved list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namin...nts,govern the scripts in which it is written.

 

[Kyriakos]

Many countries have restrictive laws on naming including that your name must be appropriate for your birth sex or must come from a state approved list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_law#:~:text=A naming law restricts the names that parents,govern the scripts in which it is written.

Just not those where most of the posters in the forum come from. I know that some have more restrictions, while some others have no restriction (or next to none) and you can officially change your name to whatever, including to names of objects such as computer consoles.

 

[Crezth]

"If you prevent me from offending transpeople, you should prevent me from offending the Big Noses too. "

Capital idea, old chum.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Just not those where most of the posters in the forum come from. I know that some have more restrictions, while some others have no restriction (or next to none) and you can officially change your name to whatever, including to names of objects such as computer consoles.

Lots of European countries on that list.

 

[Kyriakos]

"If you prevent me from offending transpeople, you should prevent me from offending the Big Noses too. "

Capital idea, old chum.

Well, in a better world, it would surely be good to disable offending.
It is to be inferred that it takes something more to ban one type of x and not others, but I am obviously not against banning deadnaming if you can make it happen, old sport.

 

[Crezth]

There are indeed laws against harassment and these were built on the legal basis provided by laws against discrimination.

 

[innonimatu]

Look, as far as I can tell all that's in contention is transpeople don't want to be deadnamed. I do not understand why that's controversial.

What is controversial is the intention o making a crime out of that. The law is not your plaything, other people have an opinion too. And in a democracy each opinion on whether a law should or should not be made is valid. So please do not try to suppress discussion and reclaim as some kind of natural right that laws forbidding what you dislike must exist. It's open to discussion.

 

[aelf]

It doesn't seem open to discussion to you when you foam in the mouth whenever people even mention that those can be harmful.

 

[Crezth]

What is controversial is the intention o making a crime out of that. The law is not your plaything, other people have an opinion too. And in a democracy each opinion on whether a law should or should not be made is valid. So please do not try to suppress discussion and reclaim as some kind of natural right that laws forbidding what you dislike must exist. It's open to discussion.

Open to discussion? You called people Nazis twice in this thread. Who is suppressing discussion? Who is promoting arbitrary laws banning whatever we dislike? Do you realize there is, in fact, a tradition in law regarding libel and harassment?

You know even in a democracy, wrong statements about the law are not "valid" - they are wrong. Opinions, sure, have those all day, but much of what is being said here is not just "opinions" but trying to prove points with facts. Dismantling those arguments isn't suppression.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The natural conclusion of misgendering and deadnaming is active discrimination by the state

This is not established, and refuting or establishing it probably leaves the scope of the thread.

Do you think the people who want it to be a crime to be trans or want to deny necessary services to trans people respect pronouns and think trans identities should be respected?

I don't respect what they choose in that matter. I still don't think criminalizing wrongthink or ignorant opinions is a path a free country should trod, however. That path erodes said freedom. If it gets to the point of bullying/harassment rather than a one-off thing it becomes a different matter and starts to fall under harassment/bullying.

No western state tells transpeople they don't exist, to my knowledge. Feel free to correct me on that if that is codified legally anywhere...maybe some in Eastern Europe or Middle Eastern countries I would believe or even expect it. I don't think it's an accident that these types of places don't have the same rigorous standards of free speech as the US though...

Yes, it's very sad that Timmy and his friends pulled you aside, beat you up, and made you feel useless. But Timmy and his friends doing that has no bearing on the laws of your country, no bearing on what's happening to people like you elsewhere in the world, and has no bearing on whether or not there's a general latitude in how society treats you.

This is similarly not established.

You're adopting the tried-and-true method of cherry picking and then patting yourself on the back for being clever again, I see. Well, that's a waste of time, and I won't be engaging with it.

It's true in the US that it works how it was described. This does imply the person deadnaming is a jerk, but casts doubt onto systemic nature/extended consequences of it. The state and most people/organizations will use a legal name given to them without issue.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

This is not established, and refuting or establishing it probably leaves the scope of the thread.

Weasel words. Misgendering and deadnaming is absolutely harmful to transpeople, be it by the state, an individual, a group, etc. Instead of approaching it from a distant, detatched manner why don't you read up on what the transcommunity has to actually say because right now... yikes.

No western state tells transpeople they don't exist, to my knowledge. Feel free to correct me on that if that is codified legally anywhere...maybe some in Eastern Europe or Middle Eastern countries I would believe or even expect it. I don't think it's an accident that these types of places don't have the same rigorous standards of free speech as the US though...

Jesus christ, there are still people alive that had to endure "therapy" that seeked to eliminate their transness!

You just don't get it, transpeople are STILL discriminated against in America and the transcommunity as a whole would disagree with your hot takes

 

[Bugfatty300]

So as long as a government doesn't officially deny or criminalize a minority's existence then there can be no discrimination? I guess this is just a quantity over quality approach? Just blurt out arguments without even thinking about it.