Jordan Peterson

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Any utility function is a slave to our initial definition of well being.

You have that back to front.

You can't just assume utilitarianism when we are discussing the basis for morality, okay. If you define well being a certain way, sure, you can use evidence to construct a utility function in theory. What the evidence cannot do, is tell you how you ought to define well-being

Making up a magic source of "ought" does not generate morality, or even serpent flies.

why we should care about someone else's well being at all, or even more difficult, why we should care about everyone's well being equally to our own.

Evidence dictates an advantage to groups of people who care about at least some others' well-being. You get more stuff, live longer on average, and don't get killed as easily yourself.

I see no reason to lend credence to "we should care about everyone's well being equally to our own". Almost nobody acts on that premise, and evidence does not support its utility. You're pulling an extra assertion out of nowhere without support.

There might be useful reasons, from the evolutionary perspective, for committing all types of atrocities, murders, and rapes.

Actually these things tend to work pretty poorly as people doing them get shunned. They persist to a degree, so the proposition that there are reasons for it likely has some credence, but they are rare and widely disliked for a reason also.

Why should I care about that when thinking about morality?

Good question. Why should you care about *anything* when thinking about morality? Are we still going to go with gravity magic god hands?

Who dominated history is surely not a useful metric for morality. I find it very shocking that this idea is even brought up.

On the contrary, success of the species is a pretty important consideration. I "find it shocking" that you consider this not to be useful. Quick, give me the moral framework of an average pre-1000 AD human living in the area of modern day Brazil.

You can't. You don't know it. Whatever their moral considerations were, it's lost to us now, as a species. Yours might be 1000 years from now also, depending on which societal norms ultimately dominate.

It's not the only metric, but to say it isn't useful is nonsense. You need to exist to have a moral framework.
 
Good question. Why should you care about *anything* when thinking about morality? Are we still going to go with gravity magic god hands?

This is an important question, and we can talk about my views on morality, but currently we are discussing your views on morality, and the problems they present. You seem to be some type of utilitarian, is that right? You seem to think this "utility" idea is the basis for morality, right? Where exactly do you think that comes from, because making up a magic source of "utility" doesn't generate morality, either.

Evidence dictates an advantage to groups of people who care about at least some others' well-being. You get more stuff, live longer on average, and don't get killed as easily yourself.

Okay - but what do you want to say about this advantage? Does the existence of this advantage make it a good action for people to care for other's well-being? If so, evidence dictates an advantage to groups of people who crush and subjugate those who oppose them, also. You got more stuff, live longer, and don't get killed as easily. High utility. So, what do you want to say about this advantage? Does it make these actions good too?

Actually these things tend to work pretty poorly as people doing them get shunned. They persist to a degree, so the proposition that there are reasons for it likely has some credence, but they are rare and widely disliked for a reason also.

If the environment changes such that rape no longer works poorly or inconsistently, but rather work very well, you wouldn't have any problem with it? Right, we have to look at the evidence. If someone is in a situation where it is high utility to rape, which is certainly the case sometimes, you must have no problem with it. Otherwise, you don't truly care about the evidence like you claim to.
On the contrary, success of the species is a pretty important consideration. I "find it shocking" that you consider this not to be useful. Quick, give me the moral framework of an average pre-1000 AD human living in the area of modern day Brazil.

You can't. You don't know it. Whatever their moral considerations were, it's lost to us now, as a species. Yours might be 1000 years from now also, depending on which societal norms ultimately dominate.

It's not the only metric, but to say it isn't useful is nonsense. You need to exist to have a moral framework.

This is the point. Your claims lead you to be at the mercy of the evidence.

Lets do a thought experiment. Imagine there is a nationalistic society that crushes all their enemies and establishes a long lasting and flourishing empire, with long and happy lives of all those in their society. They committed genocide on all those who stood a chance of opposing them, and their empire is maintained on the backs of subjugated groups who work for them. All this was very high utility, the evidence was simply overwhelming. Their conquest was highly successful and, as it turns out, allowed the human race to survive 100 times longer than it would if they had failed.

In fact, the data clearly shows that the amount of well-being experienced by that society is so high, that even when accounting for the suffering of the destroyed groups as well as the subjugated ones (who are happy enough to maximize their productivity), it simply dwarfs the sum total of well being that could have been achieved otherwise. The human race survived very long this way and so many people were so well off. Anything wrong with the actions of that society, by your utility view of things?
 
Where exactly do you think that comes from, because making up a magic source of "utility" doesn't generate morality, either.

Thoughts come from the brain, to the best of our knowledge. That includes thoughts about morality even as a concept.

Does the existence of this advantage make it a good action for people to care for other's well-being? If so, evidence dictates an advantage to groups of people who crush and subjugate those who oppose them, also. You got more stuff, live longer, and don't get killed as easily. High utility. So, what do you want to say about this advantage? Does it make these actions good too?

Good (presumably) for the winners, not so good for the losers. I don't buy into good or evil as absolute concepts. My own preference is not killing people for their stuff and also not being killed.

If the environment changes such that rape no longer works poorly or inconsistently, but rather work very well, you wouldn't have any problem with it?

What does this environment actually look like? You're essentially positing something outside human experience yet demanding a moral assignment of human value to it.

There are some animals that operate like this, and I don't see usefulness in assigning human moral value to them. If we woke up tomorrow and were suddenly not human and rape magically was perceived completely differently...then what? Be specific. Are we all ducks? Maybe it's not bad if we're all ducks? Maybe sentient ducks expect this?

In fact, the data clearly shows that the amount of well-being experienced by that society is so high, that even when accounting for the suffering of the destroyed groups as well as the subjugated ones (who are happy enough to maximize their productivity), it simply dwarfs the sum total of well being that could have been achieved otherwise. The human race survived very long this way and so many people were so well off. Anything wrong with the actions of that society, by your utility view of things?

If only such convenient data existed. But since your thought experiment suggests that we know with certainty that humanity lasted 100 times longer than if they failed (!!!), you can indeed make a strong case that they had the moral right. Per your thought experiment, their actions allowed likely trillions of lives to exist that would otherwise not have lived, given more opportunities to go transhuman completely, and provided more net happiness than alternatives by a wide margin. If I value lives and happiness as good things, this is an obviously superior option.

If we accept that the evidence actually proves these things (an outcome hard to imagine in reality) and that we're not just claiming it, you could make a serious case that not only is such an empire is morally in the right, but also that its failure is wrong. It depends on where your brain assigns value.

Leaving the thought experiment, it's rare that you can ever have such confidence in evidence in advance, or even to have confidence in its source. Given actual past evidence, a nation or group of people making a claim would be viewed quite differently...
 
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From the review posted earlier ITT:

Reactionary white men will surely be thrilled by Peterson’s loathing for “social justice warriors” and his claim that divorce laws should not have been liberalized in the 1960s. Those embattled against political correctness on university campuses will heartily endorse Peterson’s claim that “there are whole disciplines in universities forthrightly hostile towards men.” Islamophobes will take heart from his speculation that “feminists avoid criticizing Islam because they unconsciously long for masculine dominance.” Libertarians will cheer Peterson’s glorification of the individual striver, and his stern message to the left-behinds (“Maybe it’s not the world that’s at fault. Maybe it’s you. You’ve failed to make the mark.”). The demagogues of our age don’t read much; but, as they ruthlessly crack down on refugees and immigrants, they can derive much philosophical backup from Peterson’s sub-chapter headings: “Compassion as a vice” and “Toughen up, you weasel.”

If you genuinely read this **** and think it's anything besides completely idiotic and asinine, I feel sorry for you. Genuinely sorry. "Toughen up, you weasel!" There is no reason to make fun of Peterson, he outs himself as a clown with every word coming out of his mouth
 
If you genuinely read this **** and think it's anything besides completely idiotic and asinine, I feel sorry for you. Genuinely sorry.

Read this, refering to the review you quoted? Yeah I agree, it is quite idiotic and asinine.

Or were you referring his book you surely didn't read?
 
Has anyone read his books? Are there any passages one can read online?

Cause up to now every video of his i saw (and there are many...) presents him (and all videos have Peterson speaking, so the impression is directly of Peterson) as a bit of a clown, tbh. Certainly nothing of importance, and not even good as a troll (ala Milo or mini -and jewish- Milo).
 
Read this, refering to the review you quoted? Yeah I agree, it is quite idiotic and asinine.

Or were you referring his book you surely didn't read?

His books aren't intended to be "read" in the conventional sense. They're intended to confuse so as to make the reader believe they contain some higher level insight. But really they're just tomes full of self-indulgent doublespeak written vaguely enough so as to be interpretable just about any way one wants. Which is convenient, because then the author is able to dodge any criticism by explaining that the problem is the reader's, and not of the charlatan pretending he has something interesting and useful to say.
 
His books aren't intended to be "read" in the conventional sense. They're intended to confuse so as to make the reader believe they contain some higher level insight. But really they're just tomes full of self-indulgent doublespeak written vaguely enough so as to be interpretable just about any way one wants. Which is convenient, because then the author is able to dodge any criticism by explaining that the problem is the reader's, and not of the charlatan pretending he has something interesting and useful to say.

Most philosophy is like this. I suppose Peterson is different in the sense that he thinks he's something new, and has geared his drivel to be palatable to the 21st century reactionary.
 
His books aren't intended to be "read" in the conventional sense. They're intended to confuse so as to make the reader believe they contain some higher level insight. But really they're just tomes full of self-indulgent doublespeak written vaguely enough so as to be interpretable just about any way one wants. Which is convenient, because then the author is able to dodge any criticism by explaining that the problem is the reader's, and not of the charlatan pretending he has something interesting and useful to say.

Have you read 12 Rules or not?

Most philosophy is like this. I suppose Peterson is different in the sense that he thinks he's something new, and has geared his drivel to be palatable to the 21st century reactionary.

Speaking as a reactionary, I think most of what he says is wrong but I like his style and what he's actually doing for people. All he's done to deserve the label is not having jumped on the 'gender is a lie, womyn powr!' bandwagon.
 
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Most philosophy is like this. I suppose Peterson is different in the sense that he thinks he's something new, and has geared his drivel to be palatable to the 21st century reactionary.

He isn't philosophy. I mean, if you are going to claim he is wrong, don't start by showing how you are wrong ;)

He is pop psychology, aka self-help psychology. His subject matter in his other, non-self help book, has been examined by far more able people (eg Jung). Pete is basically what is termed a "public intellectual", ie a celebrity who peddles supposed intelligence.
 
He isn't philosophy. I mean, if you are going to claim he is wrong, don't start by showing how you are wrong ;)

He is pop psychology, aka self-help psychology. His subject matter in his other, non-self help book, has been examined by far more able people (eg Jung). Pete is basically what is termed a "public intellectual", ie a celebrity who peddles supposed intelligence.

Nothing you've said disproves what I said.
 
Speaking as a reactionary, I think most of what he says is wrong but I like his style and what he's actually doing for people. All he's done to deserve the label is not having jumped on the 'gender is a lie, womyn powr!' bandwagon.
I mean, those are two different and pretty generally mutually-hostile strands of feminism, how can they constitute a bandwagon? You may as well say "Stalin is bae, permanent revolution 4 evr".
 
Don’t tread on me. Blue lives matter!
 
I mean, those are two different and pretty generally mutually-hostile strands of feminism, how can they constitute a bandwagon? You may as well say "Stalin is bae, permanent revolution 4 evr".

Actually, no, they seem pretty tied together these days. It's doublethink, to be sure, but they're both now considered the standard for 'decency'... the same people who say stuff like this or this are also the ones who rant about rape culture or women owning their bodies.
 
Actually, no, they seem pretty tied together these days. It's doublethink, to be sure, but they're both now considered the standard for 'decency'... the same people who say stuff like this or this are also the ones who rant about rape culture or women owning their bodies.
"Gender is a lie" is, I take it, a caricature of contemporary queer theory. Butler et al. "Womyn power" is similarly a caricature of a certain strand radical feminism. Dworkin et al. But the thing is, these two groups do not get along, at all. They start from incompatible assumptions and arrive at very different conclusions. Further, each branch of the feminist tradition contains often-contradictory currents. Some queer theorists interpret "gender is a lie" as a call to the abolition of gender identity, while others takes it as an invitation to a multiplicity of gender identities. Some radical feminists take "women's liberation" to be a liberation of women from womanhood (traditionally defined), while others take it as the liberation of womanhood, of femininity, from patriarchal constraints. And there are, of course, a thousand other shades between and on either side.

The weird thing is, it would have been easy to get away this, because there are a lot of currents in modern feminism which are not compatible on close examination, and a lot of people don't engage with these contradictions in a lot of depth. A lot of the discussion around trans issues takes gender to be innate, while a lot of the discussion around genderqueer identities takes it to be voluntaristic, and a lot of people will employ, as you say, some pretty heady doublethink to avoid confronting this apparent inconsistency. All of this compounded by liberal feminists who take any of it terribly seriously, but have borrowed certain vocabulary or reference points from more radical currents because it is very important to appear woke af. (See: the 2016 Clinton campaign.)

But instead, you're lumping divergent and often deeply acrimonious currents in together as if they were the same thing, because all you can see is what they aren't, that they're opposed to a conservative patriarchal social structure. You're not interested in the content of their ideas or practice, and I'm going to frankly suggest that you don't have the first clue as to the differences anyway, you're only interested in what they represent to you, in the role they fill in the narrative you've built. The same way that an anti-Communist can look at Stalinists, Trotskyists and Eurocommies, even at milder-than-milk social democrats, and say "yes, these are all exactly the same thing", because what matters to him isn't what they do or say or think, but that they're on the other side.

I didn't pick up this point just to be a pedant- "um, well, actually, Rühle was associated with the Allgemeine Arbeiter-Union Einheitsorganisation, not the Allgemeine Arbeiter-Union Deutschlands"- but because the failure to recognise these fundamental and longstanding division within the feminist tradition reflects a basic misapprehension underlying your argument, that feminism is something external into the culture that has been introduced as a deliberate and foreign influence, a coherent "bandwagon" driven by a definite political will, but the reality is, feminism is the culture, or at least a part of it, however people happen to feel about the f-word itself, that certain key assumptions of Western culture are by any definition "feminist ones". The discussion is about what feminism looks like, about what these assumptions imply for how the world looks and how the world should look, not whether feminism was a good idea at all. Those choosing to raise this latter argument, far from the defenders of convention are making an active choice to reject it, to stay behind in a half-imagined past while the world moves passed them- or even, as often as not, the world stays perfectly still and they move further away.

If you want to find an example of wilful and almost antisocial deviation from the established norms of "Western civilisation", you couldn't find a better place to start than somebody like Peterson.
 
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