Jordan Peterson

[Bootstoots]

I guess overall I'm one of the few moderates in the whole Jordan Peterson debate.

It seems he's obviously wrong about what Bill C-16 does, I don't think that SJWs are mostly neo-Marxists who would set up a totalitarian state if they could, and I don't agree with a number of his views on women. I don't agree with his stance that people should fix their own lives before trying to fix the world - you can work on both at the same time, and many of the people who changed the world had tumultuous private lives. I also dislike his emphasis on hierarchy as a universal and natural thing that we should strive to be dominant within and not attempt to change; it did evolve early, but the social structure of animals varies immensely - and humans in hunter-gatherer societies are on the egalitarian end of the spectrum. There will naturally be some amount of hierarchy in society, but that doesn't mean we should allow it to dominate and create enormous amounts of inequality.

Then again, I do think that there are some differences in average personalities between the sexes that may explain part or most of why sex ratios in various professions come out the way they do, and that may explain part of the wage gap as well. I do like the way he presents myths, even if they're not original. I also like the way he uses existential themes to convince people that taking on the burden of living fully and responsibly is worth it, while fully acknowledging that all life is suffering. I agree with him in general on free speech and that college students should not attempt to no-platform people who disagree with them (although I'd throw in an exception for real neo-Nazis/white nationalists like Richard Spencer or David Duke).

The main thing I really appreciate about him is that he visibly cares about young men who are drifting aimlessly with a nihilistic worldview. I definitely count myself among them, and my overall impression of 12 Rules for Life is roughly the same as Scott Alexander's take. It's a somewhat inspiring book, as long as you read it charitably and are willing to find value in something you only agree with about 75% of.

 

[Ajidica]

The main thing I really appreciate about him is that he visibly cares about young men who are drifting aimlessly with a nihilistic worldview.

von Schirach also visibly cared about young men drifting aimlessly with a nihilistic worldview.

 

[Hygro]

Good thing Peterson says to those who identify as "alt-right" to leave their ideology behind and live as individuals instead.

 

[Synobun]

Be a nonconforming trash human being, not a conforming trash human being.

 

[cardgame]

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/988974121261256705

#3: sounds good, doesn't work. Turns into the infamous Google Memo situation where women are inferior just because I say so, but it's not sexist, it's just a "hierarchy of competence".

#11 homophobia

#2, #7 you can have your rights but don't go and use them!

#8, #9 I'm a crotchety old man, get off my lawn.

more twitter stalking revealed this sexist gem:

Women who don't want children are "not right:"

(watch from 7:30 for 20 seconds)

 

[Bootstoots]

von Schirach also visibly cared about young men drifting aimlessly with a nihilistic worldview.

Oh sure. Young male nihilists drifting aimlessly are an extremely dangerous force if mobilized by someone, and always have been. ISIS got many of its recruits from people who were Muslim by background but weren't especially religious, and didn't feel they had any purpose in their lives. An apocalyptic death cult provides that meaning on the spot, and it's very seductive. The far right aka alt right is made up of the same types of people in the West.

And yes, as you point out, the last time around, Weimar Germany was a very fertile breeding ground for demagogues who offered a simplistic kind of meaning and belonging in a group. And then one of them won, and one thing led to another and a bunch of unpleasantries occurred.

If we get a demagogue who is better than Trump at organizing people, we would have a dangerous situation on our hands. In fact I actually kind of like that Trump managed to pull off the demagogue thing before anyone else did, because he's an incompetent leader who bumbles from scandal to scandal and fulminates on Twitter, instead of organizing a real movement like Bannon et al. wanted. Bannon and his group have failed thus far, largely because Trump isn't interested in setting up a real right-wing populist organization to dismantle the government and remake it in his image; he cares only about himself. And he'll upstage any would-be competent demagogue for the rest of his time in office plus a few years.

Jordan Peterson is very much not leading any kind of totalitarian movement, nor does he seem to be pulling people into the far right. His own thinking is very much from the individualistic, classical liberal center-right. But he is disproportionately listened to by the far right, I believe because of his anti-PC posturing. Overall, I think this is a good thing - if he can help the Pepe crowd sort themselves out and think for themselves, rather than falling for far-right nonsense, he's doing the world a service.

 

[cardgame]

That implies the pepe crowd are interested in thinking (for themselves) ((at all))

 

[Bootstoots]

I was worried you were going to go into triple parentheses.

Some may be interested in thinking for themselves, some may not be. But I can't imagine Jordan Peterson being a bad influence on them.

 

[inthesomeday]

Mayhaps you guys mean something other than nihilist here

 

[Bootstoots]

What I mean is not-believing-in-anything-but-wishing-they-could-ism. I don't think there's a word that totally fits that. Nihilism kind of works as a descriptor because people caught in that state don't see any meaning or purpose in life and can't generate it for themselves. But once someone shows up with an attractive group identity and/or ideology, many of them fall for it - because they really do want to believe in something - and cease to be nihilists, turning into [something]ists instead.

edit to add: Peterson is kind of working against that tendency and trying to get people to find value in their individual life without falling for any particular ideology. He does a better job than most. I won't say that what he says is particularly original, but he presents it in a fairly compelling way.

 

[Kyriakos]

So Peterson is Sopenhauer, just without the intelligence or having anything interesting to say along with misogynism*. At least Sopenhauer could write, and was decently intricate in his thinking, despite never escaping his sadness/anger about women.

*roundabout way to say that Peterson is a charlatan, not a good influence, and should never have gotten prominent. At least he thinks Trump is very intelligent, though. Surely not quite as intelligent as Peterson, of course.

 

[Traitorfish]

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/988974121261256705

Jeez, if he sets out to draw up "12 principles" and the best he can manage are "12 vague and contradictory platitudes", that's a more damning criticism of 21st century conservatism than anything I could come up with.

 

[Farm Boy]

The main thing I really appreciate about him is that he visibly cares about young men who are drifting aimlessly with a nihilistic worldview.

Good thing Peterson says to those who identify as "alt-right" to leave their ideology behind and live as individuals instead.

He's willing to hit 15:00 - 16:45 straight, honest, and unpretentiously, and I don't see much take that on. I'm still trying to decide if post-faith sorts are actually hostile to that general concept. I'm leaning that way.

Edit: Yeah, I'm leaning that wa.,The "wrong people are listening" shows the hand. The wrong people are supposed to feel like crap and quit breeding and OD themselves away. It's not new, I'm kinda surprised the new curtains distracted me as long as they did.

 

[Lexicus]

Jordan Peterson is very much not leading any kind of totalitarian movement, nor does he seem to be pulling people into the far right. His own thinking is very much from the individualistic, classical liberal center-right. But he is disproportionately listened to by the far right, I believe because of his anti-PC posturing. Overall, I think this is a good thing - if he can help the Pepe crowd sort themselves out and think for themselves, rather than falling for far-right nonsense, he's doing the world a service.

I dunno man, implying that there is some shining line between William Buckley and David Duke, those 12 principles for conservatism...I feel like he is either totally incompetent and doing the opposite of what he means to do (assuming it is this for the sake of argument), or he is actually using dogwhistles to incite these people to further extremism while appearing reasonable to people who are less tuned-in to fascist appeals.

 

[miaasma]

edit to add: Peterson is kind of working against that tendency and trying to get people to find value in their individual life without falling for any particular ideology.

yeah, you know, unless you're trans

 

[Manfred Belheim]

This may include misgendering, but is not criminal law. It's a human right act. It prevent discrimination in a variety of fields (refusing employment on the basis of a prohibited ground, refusing lodging on such a basis, etc). You can't go to jail for breaking this one (as is the case for most human right acts - human right acts are about fines and damages, not about discrimination). Heck, you won't even go to jail for obstructing the Human Right Commission in a human right investigation - while that's an offense it's punishable only by a fine of up to 50K.

What if you don't pay the fine?

 

[Synobun]

What if you don't pay the fine?

Keep reading and you'll find out.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Keep reading and you'll find out.

Yeah I know I was about to delete it but you've replied now, so it'll have to stay.

 

[Synobun]

Humiliation set in stone!

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Humiliation set in stone!

Okay...