Jordan Peterson

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you oppose the mass incarceration of black men but endorse trump? interesting

i didn't think he was blaming black people for the drug war, quite the opposite

it's that he goes on to speak positively about jim crow that puzzled me

Jim Crow was evil, but the drug war is evil too - in some ways, more evil. Imagine if the Southern states replaced slavery with Jim Crow and a drug war. Slavery wouldn't have ended... They'd just arrest people for drugs and put them to work.

I was responding to TF's post about the state of black families and mouthwash said the rate of single mothers has climbed since the 70s. The rate for white moms started climbing too for the same reasons, but the drug war focuses on black people (compare sentencing guidelines for crack vs powder cocaine).

Before the drug war with abortion illegal in many places men married the women they impregnated in spite of Jim Crow. What changed? Nixon got mad at hippies and black people for opposing him and the Democrats gave him the authority to wage a drug war. But his war was treatment oriented and far less militaristic; Reagan, Tip O'Neill, Bill Clinton and a boy called Newt (or was he gone by then?) are primarily responsible for the last 3+ decades of mass incarceration. The worst of the drug laws (eg, mandatory minimum sentences) were written in the 80s-90s. I dont remember what was added under Bush, medical pot was starting to turn the tide against the drug war.

edit: I didn't endorse or vote for Trump, but I do see the Democrat media lie about him everyday.

No, because you make openly racist statements. They like that. They might not be impressed by the weaselly way you try to squirm out of them after you make them, since they are more about just being the racist scum that they are. But I'm sure you'd be able to get over that and fit right in.

What statement?

Because his motivation is just getting a reaction; any reaction. He is not bound by any desire to make sense.

Berzerker isn't trying to synthesize anything, he's just fishing for a reaction. If being overtly racist is what pops into his head as a path to getting a reaction that's what he does. In this case Mouthwash demonstrated that overt racism was good for getting a reaction so it didn't even take any creativity on Berzerker's part.

When you're reading my mind, you're reading your mind. Your reaction speaks volumes...about you. I hate the drug war, that is my motivation. I was responding to a discussion about the cause of disruptions to black families, and by extension black culture. I identified the drug war as the main cause.

in a more reasoned response to you, I’ll say that black communities probably aren’t suffering for the loss of millions of their young men because those men are lost as fathers, they’re suffering because they’re literally members of the community themselves. And because the same forces that capture the young black men are taking other further actions to suppress black communities independent of the young black men. Meanwhile, even with the infusion of a “father figure”— hell, even the return of the young men as “father figures”— black communities would still fall victim to numerous other programs of oppression.

No doubt about it... But what other program can compare with the drug war? I cant think of one. And thanks :)
 
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Sure, honoring the flag is and always was political, but it's a political thing that brings people together under a shared identity. If that identity is co-opted for partisan politics, it's tantamount to making the identity conditional on those demands being met.

So who is co-opting the flag then? The people who are simply making a display to draw attention to a profound social problem that also gets directly at the denied promise the flag represents, or the people who are saying this display means those making it are disloyal and unwelcome?

Right. It won't work: there is a loose but intuitive and self consistent flag ethic among a swath of Americans, shared by most conservatives, that has nothing to do with military flag rules, doesn't pretend to come from military flag rules, and therefore doesn't back anyone into any corner on a flag discussion.

If it's self-consistent, it backs people who hold it "into a corner" by definition. What you're saying here is just wrong...conservatives (and I actually work with one and we had an argument discussion about this). That guy literally said that the football players piss him off because the military is supposed to stand for the flag, and people are supposed to stand for it because to not stand is to spit in the face of the military and the veterans (he is an former Marine). So of course the typical conservative does at least implicitly pretend their respect for the flag comes from military rules.

Like, couching the argument for why they don't like this protest in "respect for the flag" absolutely backs them into a corner. And I don't get why you evidently don't see it. The truth is that any kind of consequential or publicly-visible protest on this issue would elicit some sort of outrage from conservatives because at bottom (as @Sommerswerd has pointed out in the past) they disagree on the issue, they think it's perfectly fine that the police routinely shoot people in general and black people more often than they should, and my whole point is that they should just say that instead of pretending they give a rusty nail about the flag when they're rubbing their balls on it all the time.

So I'm perfectly fine to just ignore the whole "you're a hypocrite on the flag" discussion and go straight to the "let's talk about your active blood lust and how you want people murdered by the police" discussion.
 
Like, couching the argument for why they don't like this protest in "respect for the flag" absolutely backs them into a corner. And I don't get why you evidently don't see it.
I see why according to the logic process of some liberals, conservatives should be hypocrites. But what I see that I guess you don't is that you misrecognize their position, fake or real, by appealing to a different flag decorum than most of them actually hold. Most of them don't pretend that their flag respect is part of the US Flag Code of 1942. Ergo the argument only support anti-conservative in-group bonding.
 
I see why according to the logic process of some liberals, conservatives should be hypocrites. But what I see that I guess you don't is that you misrecognize their position, fake or real, by appealing to a different flag decorum than most of them actually hold. Most of them don't pretend that their flag respect is part of the US Flag Code of 1942. Ergo the argument only support anti-conservative in-group bonding.

I don't think anyone seriously believes conservatives adhere to the 1942 flag code. That's a part of the point. If you make it difficult or annoying enough to defend a faulty position, the reality eventually leaks through. I don't believe you can earnestly make the argument that liberals are just tricking conservatives into saying racist things and that conservatives, in reality, are just fine. That would either call into question the intelligence of conservatives or position liberals as masterful manipulators.

It's a recycled tactic by "liberals" because it works. If you just flat out call someone racist without evidence, they're defensive and rightfully so. But if you make it so they admit to being racist... publicly, they have less to fall back on as defense or excuse.
 
But what I see that I guess you don't is that you misrecognize their position, fake or real, by appealing to a different flag decorum than most of them actually hold.

I'm appealing to a consistent flag decorum to show that their actually-held flag decorum is inconsistent, and this inconsistency is precisely what makes them hypocrites.

At the end of the day though...

So I'm perfectly fine to just ignore the whole "you're a hypocrite on the flag" discussion and go straight to the "let's talk about your active blood lust and how you want people murdered by the police" discussion.

In fact I prefer the latter discussion because I really don't remotely care about the flag or respecting it or anything else like that.
 
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Like, couching the argument for why they don't like this protest in "respect for the flag" absolutely backs them into a corner. And I don't get why you evidently don't see it. The truth is that any kind of consequential or publicly-visible protest on this issue would elicit some sort of outrage from conservatives because at bottom (as @Sommerswerd has pointed out in the past) they disagree on the issue, they think it's perfectly fine that the police routinely shoot people in general and black people more often than they should, and my whole point is that they should just say that instead of pretending they give a rusty nail about the flag when they're rubbing their balls on it all the time.

So I'm perfectly fine to just ignore the whole "you're a hypocrite on the flag" discussion and go straight to the "let's talk about your active blood lust and how you want people murdered by the police" discussion.
The issue is that its irritating for a segment of Americans to see/hear people complaining about racism. They either think that the complaint isn't legitimate, or its overblown, or they just don't care to think about it or be confronted with it... so you are correct that any protest or statement on this issue is going to be opposed, no matter what form it takes... and the "Oh I don't object to them protesting... I just object to the way they're doing it" excuse... is a bunch of hogwash that falls apart under any serious inquiry.

Said it before, say it again... Don't like the who/what... gonna hate the how, regardless.
 
You can’t tell someone they are hypocrites by assigning values they don’t have.

It's a pretty effective lie for generating harrumphs, tho.

Said it before, say it again... Don't like the who/what... gonna hate the how, regardless.

Spending less time online recently I've softened my stance on this somewhat. There's a bunch of people who don't do this consistently. Probably most of them, if you can get them to think slowly about something rather than a surface level take. Those who do do that consistently? Pretty good metric for people who are actively harmful to be around.
 
The issue is that it is irritating for a segment of Americans to see/hear people complaining about racism. They either think that the complaint isn't legitimate, or its overblown, or they just don't care to think about it or be confronted with it... so you are correct that any protest or statement on this issue is going to be opposed, no matter what form it takes... and the "Oh I don't object to them protesting... I just object to the way they're doing it" excuse... is a bunch of hogwash that falls apart under any serious inquiry.

Said it before, say it again... Don't like the who/what... gonna hate the how, regardless.

The slight caveat being that the only form of acceptable protest is one that accomplishes nothing. For this reason a fairly good proxy measurement for how effective a given form of protest is is how much it pisses off Republicans.
 
It sounds absurd that it's okay to wear the flag as underwear but it's not okay to kneel when the flag is being raised, no matter what conservatives believe.
 
Honestly in the cases of the non-violent type liberal stuff, including this kneeling thing, conservative outrage emboldens the cause. I don’t follow football, so without the massive media attention for the kneeling I probably would have literally never heard of the protest.
 
I also would take it that it's working. Despite all the people that you're going to see that toss out six-letters*, remember there's lots of people who are going to be annoyed about the flag thing that are also troubled by how people of color are frequently treated. Specific protests will run their useful course. Then a new one will rise. Not sure where we are in the lifecycle of this specific one, but you can track the direction over the decades and tell it is working. It's just really slow and hard. I mean, it's easy to forget that the men and women who spent my entire childhood telling me that there are inappropriate things to call people that you will hear used**, that it is important to treat people who are different from you with respect and charity, and that we're all bound together by more than separates us... those people were, and are, mostly conservative Baby Boomers.

*People do like attention.

**That are also useful for in-group bonding. Highly effective, at that, if you aren't picky about your company.
 
It sounds absurd that it's okay to wear the flag as underwear but it's not okay to kneel when the flag is being raised, no matter what conservatives believe.


Well, wearing the flag as underwear is incredibly kitch ^_^

Almost as much as wearing Manowar underwear.
 
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Ah. That's good then. Wearing horse underwear is a lot of things, but not really kitch.
 
Jordans Peterson's true form?
aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzA3Ni85MDkvb3JpZ2luYWwvbWFuLW9mLXdhci13YXRlci5qcGc=

Wait. He's not Portuguese so that doesn't work.....:think:
 
I am not wearing that thing's underwear!

At least not in public
 
I can't blame you, jellyfish sting in the nether regions sounds.....bad thought..bad thought...purge brain...must..find...distraction...
I feel like my skin just crawled about 5 feet.......
 
I can't blame you, jellyfish sting in the nether regions sounds.....bad thought..bad thought...purge brain...must..find...distraction...
I feel like my skin just crawled about 5 feet.......

That would be from wearing that thing as underwear.
 
Very generally speaking: marriage to the state. Black women often literally can't raise children without Medicaid
That's not a structure, though. It's barely a characteristic of family structure. It's a description of economic circumstance.

And you think this is a replacement for having two parents?
It isn't a replacement. Multi-generationality and extensiveness are the historical rule among black American families; there was no point at which they all had stereotypically WASPish suburban nuclear families, and then it all went off the rails. In the first place, these sorts of structures were far from uncommon among poor whites. While the prevalence of "extended families" in the the Medieval early modern European world has been exaggerated, single-household families do seem to have been the rule, "household" in this context implies something broader than "nuclear family". Further, black American family structures were profoundly shaped by the institution of slavery. Black Americans, unlike poor whites, mostly lived and worked on plantations, which functioned at the ground-level on a sort of barracks system, in which slaves were forced by necessity to practice a more communal lifestyle than white Americans. This was reinforced by the difficulty of maintaining anything like a nuclear family structure, even by the standards of the era, when family members may be plucked out of the community at the whim of the planters. Abolition lessened this impact, but black Americans after slavery mostly ended up as agricultural peons and gradually made the move to industrial proletarians, both of which left black communities in a state of geographic and economic precariousness, reinforcing the importance of extended family networks as a safety net and, often as not, a way of sharing and minimising costs.

This was especially true in the black diaspora, from which the majority of urban black Americans in the North, Midwest and West- which is therefore to say, the majority of urban black Americans- are drawn. Like any diaspora, chain migration was a common practice, and new migrants tended to settle near to kin, even living alongside them on a temporary or permanent basis as circumstances demanded.

Now, the obvious reply is that this was all decades ago, and that's true. But the question then is, what has prevented black Americans from adopting a conventional two-parent nuclear family structure like other ethnic minorities have tended to do over time? What in the African-American experience has differed over the last, say, fifty years that would lead to these differences in family structures being perpetuated? "Culture" is a grossly insufficient answer, unless you're prepared to argue that the peasant masses of the Old World, from Ireland to Japan, were all possessed of some latent tendency towards two-parent nuclear households that black Americans do not, and to giving a convincing explanation as to why.

I'd be the first one to tear down the nuclear family, but denying the importance of parents doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. I have two Haredi aunts with families; they don't resemble the Afro-American single-mother households in the slightest.
I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, "the two-parent heterosexual family" is a very specific family structure that is neither "natural", in the sense that Peterson et al. would have us believe, nor universal. To declare the basis of a stable polity is therefore to raise a lot of questions about what human societies were doing for the thousands of years before Europeans developed the essentially Utopian notion that human kinship system is just supposed to look a certain way. Peterson fancies himself a stony realist, but this is an almost comical example of "no, it's the children who are wrong".

Sure, honoring the flag is and always was political, but it's a political thing that brings people together under a shared identity. If that identity is co-opted for partisan politics, it's tantamount to making the identity conditional on those demands being met.
Well, yeah. Group identities are produced by negotiation, by consensus, they are not imposed from above. If an irreconcilable disagreement is encountered, a solution must be reached before the group identity can be authentically reaffirmed. What Kaerpernick and other protesters are saying is that they, as black people, can not feel wholly American unless they are treated equally with other Americans, unless their civil rights are upheld, specifically in regards to police violence. That's not an unreasonable demand- you might disagree with the empirical claim that their rights are not being upheld, bu that their rights should be upheld is itself beyond dispute- so it is reasonable for Kaaerpernick and his fellows to withhold their affirmation of the group identity until some satisfactory solution is achieved.

Otherwise, uncritical affirmation of the group identity and its rituals becomes the condition for even the most basic demands being met. Is it better that spectators are made to feel slightly uncomfortable, or that all criticism of the prevailing regime be carefully couched in a declaration of loyalty?
 
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