JS Mill's harm principle and maximising freedom

Arwon

stop being water
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YOUR RIGHT TO SWING YOUR FIST ENDS AT MY NOSE (and other such nonsense)

(wrote this a couple years ago, pretty sure I didn't post it then, just discovered it again)

That the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. – John Stuart Mill

Freedom is generally considered to be a good thing, which can make it hard to argue against. The “harm principle” as put forth by Mill and Locke, and butchered by many a hack such as myself, is the principle that the state and its laws should only ever violate freedom to prevent harm to another person. It is a necessary counter-balance to what Mill called “the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling,” a sentiment which can easily become embedded into the laws of a state—think of sodomy laws or alcohol prohibition. This principle is found at the heart of a lot of debates, anything that comes down to a “big government/social good” versus “individual freedom” clash.

However, “freedom” as an absolute value doesn’t exist in isolation, and whilst as far as moral arguments go, freedom=good is a powerful one, the vital next step is to demonstrate that it actually has useful effects. The harm principle is, first and foremost, a utilitarian one based on the idea that individuals respecting other individuals are the best basis for a happy and fair society. People left to make their own choices usually make appropriate ones whilst bureaucrats and lawmakers don’t, and freedom to do what we want is a good thing because we know what makes us happy. Limiting choice and forcing people to fit to standard norms of behaviour is harmful, and most government attempts to limit peoples’ freedom usually does more harm than good (being jailed for possession of drugs or prostitution, for example).

When invoked, the ghost of JS Mill can be argued against on a number of grounds. One can, at one level of analysis, accept the basic premise that liberty maximises happiness, but argue about its specific application. Maybe some harm to others does exist and an action therefore violates another’s rights (freedom to smoke violates other people's freedom to breathe clean air). Or perhaps a lack of informed consent means the state is justified in intervening in order to facilitate a proper free choice which would otherwise not exist due to lack of information (this is particularly salient on issues like consumer or worker rights).

At another level of analysis, this principle can be attacked on the grounds that there are other justifications for states imposing laws which violate individual freedom of action—such as protecting people from their own shortcomings (hence seatbelt laws or mandatory superannuation) or promoting behavioural norms such as, say, not taking drugs or screwing donkeys.

However, there’s a third angle of argument—accept the premise that more freedom is basically a good thing, but that to guarantee it for everyone, setting laws solely by the "butt the hell out" principle isn’t the best way. The interesting thing about the arguments discussed so far is the assumption that the governments going hands-off is the most liberty-maximising legislative option. Even the arguments against this view tend to assume that there is a trade-off between state-intervention and freedom when they argue that reduced freedom is justified under certain circumstances. But it’s not always the case that non-intervention is the most freedom-maximising option.

Governments, after all, govern public spaces. For our purposes, they control the streets. Therefore, legalised drugs or a lack of any gun control is an imposed tolerance of these things—tolerance of drugs or guns in every neighbourhood, potentially anywhere. With these sorts of questions, “no control” actually means advocating something called anarchic polycentric control, and the spontaneous order that arises in such an environment. In other words, a market. If we’re talking censorship, for example, then when we say there should be no censorship we’re advocating that the best way to regulate what goes on the air or gets published is to leave it to the simple pressures of public opinion, the so-called marketplace of ideas. Meanwhile, nobody would argue that a lessaiz-faire approach to resolving traffic control problems on our roads increases freedom while driving.

However, the spontaneous order that arises where government does not intervene isn’t necessarily more “free”. An anything-goes approach to prostitution (even assuming effective enforcement of the rights of prostitutes) would eliminate the ability of people to choose to live in a neighbourhood free of brothels, and therefore their freedom to avoid the more unsavoury aspects of that industry. Would this be greater freedom for everyone? More to the point, if liberty is good because of the utility it has, this anything-goes approach simply isn’t effective because of its impositions on others. Perhaps limited, licensed brothels or heroin shooting galleries in designated areas would be better, by allowing something that should not be illegal to exist, whilst creating choice and freedom from it for others. Or one could argue that a gun law regime which allows private ownership, but regulates carrying in public and mandates licensing to help track and fight crime, is more freedom-maximising since it protects people from higher levels of gun-violence and fear.

The point of the harm principle isn’t that the state going “hands-off” is intrinsically a virtue, it's a utilitarian argument. The state cannot simply withdraw from a question altogether on many issues like guns or drugs or prostitution, because its position sets a policy monopoly no matter what its stance. Moreover, “freedom” as an intrinsic value often isn’t best safeguarded by this purely harm-principle based approach—sometimes the absence of state intervention reduces certain choices in order to allow for others. The point of the harm principle is that freedom of action, unfettered by state intervention except to protect others from harm, is good because it maximises happiness. It still applies in most cases. Just not all of them.
 
If you try to justify the Harm Principle on a Utilitarian basis like Mill did, it falls to Arwon's critique. But if you try to justify it from a broader more common-sense moral perspective than Utilitarianism, it still falls to Arwon's critique.
 
Interesting. I wrote something similar about the harm principle, but focusing more on the need to figure others' interests and not just your own - a more communitarian approach, if you like, which is pretty similar to what you seem to be advocating. I guess this can be my (affirmative) response to your article/essay, but from another angle.

Text in spoiler and link to the original thread below.

Spoiler :
Are human beings inherently selfish? This is an interesting question that has plagued philosophers and scientists, thinkers and laymen. One might think that the answer to this is obvious. Some people have used science to answer it, stating that it is built into our genes as a survival mechanism through the process of natural selection. Others cite examples of unselfish behaviour in the natural world that debunk this notion. Clearly, there is an empirical dimension to this question.

It is also a question of semantics, depending on what you define as selfish behaviour. Is the parental instinct ultimately motivated by self-interest? How about religious convictions? How about anonymous philanthropic acts? Some would answer these questions in the affirmative. As long as an act has at least the effect of generating a good feeling in an individual, it cannot be unselfish. But what about people who have acquired the habit of kindness, for whom this good feeling has become negligible? Others state that as long as an act is caused by a desire within the individual, it is selfish. By that definition, nothing done by the individual, whenever he is not completely coerced, can be unselfish. One might object that in that case, selfishness is a meaningless term since it has no foil, just as darkness would be meaningless without light. Another might counter with the Nietzschean argument that it is because we are falsely led to believe that there is something opposite of selfishness that the term retains some importance. I could possibly go on.

However, we are not exactly interested in this question here. Let us assume a priori that human beings are indeed inherently selfish. Does it follow that the society we live in should be built on selfishness? On a very fundamental level of argument, just because something is the case doesn’t necessarily mean that it should be the case. Even if we have established that not only is the individual necessarily selfish but so is the society he lives in, does it follow that this should be the model of all societies? There answer is not clearly a ‘yes’, but neither is it a ‘no’. To arrive at a definite answer, we would have to employ the method of reductio ad absurdum, following the claim to its ridiculous conclusions.

To that effect, let us take a look at what this claim means in the world, or how it is applied. It appears to be a cornerstone in Libertarianism, connected with the notion of individual sovereignty. Sometimes it is used as a basis for the latter, but sometimes the latter is used to justify it. Either way, individual sovereignty is a moral and political manifestation of it, so let us examine this concept.

When one tries to define individual sovereignty, one finds that it is an umbrella for some individual rights or freedoms: The right to live, the right of political participation, the notion of private property, freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, freedom to pursue happiness, etcetera. However, Libertarians and people of similar belief in the supremacy of self-interest do not seem able to effectively decide where these rights and freedoms end. In other words, they are inviting the question, where does one’s right end and another’s right begin? Does one have the freedom of speech when one can be sued for libel? Does one have the freedom to pursue happiness when the society and corporations are dictating what happiness is? Do property rights mean that you have the right to practice racial discrimination in determining who can use your property? These are loaded questions that are difficult to answer in light of the freedoms without some contradiction.

Mill’s harm principle may come to mind: Your freedom ends where it causes or has the potential to cause harm to others. But how do you define harm? Is it merely physical harm and damage to property? That is clearly insufficient for the freedoms. Perhaps, a more wide-ranging definition of damage to others’ interests should be used? But every single one of these freedoms has the potential to damage the interests of another, as deducible from the examples I used above.

On that note, we have plenty of missiles to fire at the worship of self-interest. In the Communist Manifesto, Marx points out that private property tramples on the rights of the proletariat. Is your right to the unlimited accumulation of capital, of which Locke is a proponent, or your right to pursue happiness mean that you are free to deprive others of their rights? Is a worker who earns subsistence wages, whether she is here on in a developing country, not deprived of the right to pursue her happiness by a capitalist who asserts his rights? If this is too extreme an example, consider healthcare. Is universal healthcare unfair to the people who can pay? Is one’s freedom to accumulate capital not offended by the fact that others can get the same benefits for less (or nothing) or by the fact that one is forced to pay for others through taxation? Libertarians would answer in the affirmative, but would they then not be depriving poor people of the freedom to pursue happiness, on which health has an important bearing, or even the right to live? And, if the majority votes for the institution of universal healthcare, would Libertarians concede them the right of political participation?

Not only do they face difficult questions that lead to contradictory answers, proponents of a society of self-interested individuals also fail to take into account the benefits of community-minded acts to the individual. A healthier society through subsidised healthcare means a more productive workforce, benefiting employers. A less selfish society would be more pleasant, improving the individual’s life. And there are many other examples; more contradictions to deal with.

Ultimately, does this mean that people are not selfish, or that I am not? Clearly not, as evidence might show. However, that certainly does not mean our society should be based on self-interest, and thus our question is answered.


Thread
 
I am kind of a social anarchist. So I say my right to swing ends when you stop me.

I think everyone should be armed and certain crimes be un-illegalized. So if you murder my brother I'd thank you before killing you If a person disagrees with drug pushers, he can kill them if he is willing to take chance.

Or at the very least we should bring back duelling.
 
I am kind of a social anarchist. So I say my right to swing ends when you stop me.

I think everyone should be armed and certain crimes be un-illegalized [emphasis mine]. So if you murder my brother I'd thank you before killing you If a person disagrees with drug pushers, he can kill them if he is willing to take chance.

Or at the very least we should bring back duelling.

Un-illegalized? Jesus H. Christ, a double negative in my English? What's next? Irregardless? HOW ABOUT JUST LEGALIZED, MAN?

Also I would not want to live in your society because it would turn into a hellhole of violence and roving gangs and the like.
 
Un-illegalized? Jesus H. Christ, a double negative in my English? What's next? Irregardless? HOW ABOUT JUST LEGALIZED, MAN?

Also I would not want to live in your society because it would turn into a hellhole of violence and roving gangs and the like.

I put the hyphen in to differentiate it from legalization. It'd still be considered bad but civilian authorities would have no jurisdiction to meat out punishment.

But isn't a hell-hole of violence and roving gaings what we already got with the news cycle imprinting bad news into the sub-conciousness every day. Natallee Holloway, OJ Simpson, etc etc etc.

It'd be up to the wrong or the victims of the wrong to carry out justice instead of something that has no real meaning other than as a political issue. The courts would simply make an inquiry and state that there is a reasonable belief that so and so committed a crime. It'd be short.

And if we bring back dueling, think about how civil it would all be. Get cut off, follow the person and then slap them in the face and demand satisfaction through the duel. Politics would be a real bloodletting! Entertainment value right there.

Good people would band together and meat out justice to drug gangs, murders, rapists, child molesters. It wouldn't be lawlessness, people would enforce the law themselves instead of hoping an under-paid attorney can beat an over-paid defense attorney.

The Enron asshats would've been shot in a few months by a vigilante posse instead of the entire thing dragging on until one of them died without facing justice.

I'd be all for it. Talk about individual empowerment. I could go around killing drug dealers and feel good about it instead of seeing them get cycled through the prison system in a few years to peddle their poison on the streets and enslave people to dependency.

If someone wrongs you it is quiet simple, you can seek justice right then and there instead of hoping an over-worked justice system and law-enforcement can do it for you.

Someone rapes your daughter, she tells you who and you find him and put a bullet through his brain-pan.

After awhile, it'd be better than what we got now! All the asshats would be extinct! And so Darwinian.
 
I'd be all for it. Talk about individual empowerment. I could go around killing drug dealers and feel good about it instead of seeing them get cycled through the prison system in a few years to peddle their poison on the streets and enslave people to dependency.

More likely, you get killed very very quickly.

Your not Rambo.
 
I put the hyphen in to differentiate it from legalization. It'd still be considered bad but civilian authorities would have no jurisdiction to meat out punishment.

But isn't a hell-hole of violence and roving gaings what we already got with the news cycle imprinting bad news into the sub-conciousness every day. Natallee Holloway, OJ Simpson, etc etc etc.

It'd be up to the wrong or the victims of the wrong to carry out justice instead of something that has no real meaning other than as a political issue. The courts would simply make an inquiry and state that there is a reasonable belief that so and so committed a crime. It'd be short.

And if we bring back dueling, think about how civil it would all be. Get cut off, follow the person and then slap them in the face and demand satisfaction through the duel. Politics would be a real bloodletting! Entertainment value right there.

Good people would band together and meat out justice to drug gangs, murders, rapists, child molesters. It wouldn't be lawlessness, people would enforce the law themselves instead of hoping an under-paid attorney can beat an over-paid defense attorney.

The Enron asshats would've been shot in a few months by a vigilante posse instead of the entire thing dragging on until one of them died without facing justice.

I'd be all for it. Talk about individual empowerment. I could go around killing drug dealers and feel good about it instead of seeing them get cycled through the prison system in a few years to peddle their poison on the streets and enslave people to dependency.

If someone wrongs you it is quiet simple, you can seek justice right then and there instead of hoping an over-worked justice system and law-enforcement can do it for you.

Someone rapes your daughter, she tells you who and you find him and put a bullet through his brain-pan.

After awhile, it'd be better than what we got now! All the asshats would be extinct! And so Darwinian.

Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short.
 
Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short.

Ah, Hobbes. Good answer.
 
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