Jumpmasters 1B: Power is Knowledge (Vanilla, GOTM mod - Emperor - No research)

[Grunthex]

Sorry I haven't been putting in much input of late -- I've been watching, but I've been having to be a LOT more discrete at work about it.

Good turns, Alan - I was surprised at how many units the Han threw. This is why ancient war usually kills me, I'd have diverted more units to the Korean front too soon, and likely lost (or not gained) ground in the north.

Wield a mighty stick, Mistfit! Once we get iron online, and if we keep theirs offline, they should break like frozen bamboo!

Edit: And I think Chengdu should come south one, not north. We lose the gold hill otherwise, and while minor, it IS 3 gpt in our treasury.

 

[AlanH]

OCN calculator for emporer/large map/ despot or monarch gov is 22

with a FP its 30

w/FP & Rep/Dem its 33

Well, that shows how seldom I play large maps ... like never I didn't even twig that this one was large Should have guessed - the interturn is a noticeable delay. We'll probably not make it to Rep/Dem, so let's work on 30 cities. At radius 8 Beijing's second ring will define a set of towns within 8.x from our FP that will have corruption rank no worse than the number of ring 5 cities round Beijing. I make that maybe 20-22 cities assuming a couple on the Korean coast. The inner ring at Beijing adds p'raps another 7, so one or two of the 8 ring may also be less than 100% corrupt. We should certainly keep them at 8 minimum to avoid compromising the FP disk.

 

[Mistfit]

Ok Here we go - Wow this is quite the little empire we've got going here. Impressive. Who knew you could pack so many cities in such a little space? I guess you guys did

Pre-turn
Try out the trade with Chosogabe - Buy Currency for 445 gold.
Buy Polytheism from Tokugawa for Currency and 10 gold. ( I could have done it for Poly and Lit but I hold chose the $ instead)

We are up Poly Currency and Construction on the Baekje they have 0 gold
We are even tech with the Chosogabe they now have 453 gold
We are up Lit on Tokugawa he has 11 gold
Khwarizmia is up Monotheism on us and has 0 gold (he wants 2390 gold for it...no thanks)
We are even tech with Rajaptana he has 163 gold
We should now have all of the Anchient Age techs

We have:
4 settlers
27 workers
2 catapults
4 galleys
11 nomad warriors
2 mangudai archers
28 archers
We are still 38 units under the cap for "Allowed Units"
We have somthing like 29 cities

We currently make 200 gpt income
0 to science
-24 to entertainment (20%)
-64 to corruption
-25 to maintenance

+87 to the bank per turn

IBT
The Rajaputanis are building the Great Library
Tabriz Gospodar to Gospodar in 6
Choyr Nomad Warrior to Nomad Warrior in 5
Uliastay Worker to Worker in 10
Han are building the Great Library (good one less town making units)

Turn 1 (130BC)
Cat -vs- Wosan Failed
Gospodar wins Flawlessly -vs- and Wonsan is ours start temple in 60
Get brave and attack Tientsin with Gospodar retreats after no damage redlined
2nd Gospodar takes out the spear flawless
3rd Gospodar takes out the 2nd spear -1hp and we raze Tientsin (2 cities down) gain 4 gold

IBT
We lose one Gospodar to an archer and another redlined and retreated
Almarikh Gospodar to Aqueduct in 10
Han are building the GL again
Baruun-Urt Expands
Baekje are building the GL

Turn 2 (110BC)
Settle Arvayheer on island/pennisula where Tientsin was (in the 8 ring) starts a worker due in 10
Attack Tsingtao w/ 2 Gospodar to no avail both retreat

IBT
A lowly reg Korean Archer retreats our elite Gospodar and takes 2 of our workers outside of Tosontsengel
Han Archer retreats our Vet Gosopadar
Karajorum finishes Rax starts Marketplace in 13
Shangai Riots...oops hire taxman
Kazan worker to worker in 4
Dalandzadgad Galley to Galley in 6
Khwarizmians building the GL
Galley gets sunk by barb galley in the NW

Turn 3 (90BC)
Set-up troops to move on the Koreans
Settle Ondorhaan on Korean soil Start on Rax due in 20
Vet Gospodar attacks reg spear in Chengdu - wins -2 hp and promotes
Vet Gospodar -vs- reg spear in Chengdu wins -3hp we raze Chendu and gain 5 gold
OOh new borders spotted...oops never mind that's Tok...get up to get some Mt. Dew and Kodiak BBIAM...
Kill the worker stealing archer in the south...cant get the worker back though
Hire a taxman at Darhan size 6 no more growth
Who is beating up on the Baekje? only 4 extra cities and way behind in tech
Maybe just poor land because Korea only has 5 extra (they would give us Namp'o right now but not republic..hmm...not a chance)

IBT
The Baekje and Rajaputana have signed a MA against Tokugawa and declare
Korean archer kills a forted gospodar on a hill -3hp
Hovd Gospodar to Gospodar in 5
Mandalgovi Cat to Cat in 5
Baruun-Urt Rax to Nomad Warrior in 4

Turn 4 (70BC)
We kill the Archer with a vet Gospodar no damage now elite
Set-up for a suprise in Korea...TBC...
Vet Gospodar -1hp -vs- Footman Dead
Vet Gospodar -2hp -vs Footman Dead
Vet Gospodar-3hp retreats -vs- footman -1hp
Dang...Next turn....

IBT
hmm...no counter attacks on either front...good
Tok asks us to leave his waters...just a min tok I'm almost through
Ta-Tu Gospodar to Gospodar in 6
Bayanhongor Rax to Cat in 20
Ulaanbaatar (the founder of which was fond of sheep) Gospodar to Gospodar in 5
Choybalsan Gospodar to Gospodar in 5

Turn 5 (50BC)
2 cats attack Korean city no damage
Kill off 1 more Footman w/ 3 Gospodar all retreat w/ 1 hp left (is there such a thing as a killer footman?)
Kill 2 Han Archers with Vet Gosposar -1hp each no promo

IBT
Kazan worker to worker
Darhan Gospodar to gospodar in 6
Erdenet Gospodar to Gospodar in 10
Tokugawa building the GL

Turn 6 (30BC)
Ok Finally the Korean city is ours 2 failed cats and 1 redlined Gospodar later...

we start a temple.
Attack on Hyangsan goes poorly lose one gospodar and redline 3 - kill one footman and -1 hp to another
Set-up attack on Tsingtao

IBT
Tabriz Gospodar to Gospodar in 6
Tseterleg worker to galley in 30 worthless little town with only 1 pc of land to work
Ereen Rax to Sword in 15
Batshireet (A.K.A. Guano) Gospodar to Gospodar in 10

Turn 7 (10)
It takes 3 Gospodar to take Tsingtao we take no damage no promo's start temple

IBT
Tsingtau Reg archer killed our Elite gospodar in Tsingtao and retake the city with 53 gold.. Grr...
Seoul riots... I forgot to starve it down. Set a clown to work there
Baruun-Urt Warrior to Sword in 10
Har-Atrag Rax to Sword

Turn 8 (10AD)
Finally remember to upgrade our Warriors to sword for 440 gold
Use 2 elite Gospodar to retake Tsingtao only get 4 of our gold back both archers dead re-start temple
Set-up for Chinan next turn

IBT
Shanghai Rax to cat in 20
Kazan worker to worker in 4
Ulaanbaatar Gospodar to Gospodar in 5
Hovd Gospodar to Gospodar in 5
Dandyland Galley to Galley in 6
Mandalgovi Cat to Cat in 5
Choyr warror to cat worker in 10
Atlay Gospodar to Gospodar in 15
Cosogabe building the GL
It takes 2 Gospodar to take out 2 spear in Chinan it is razed we get 5 gold
I notice that the Gospodar in Atlay is reg Switch to Galley in 15

Turn 9 (30AD)
move troops and workers
Settle Saynshand 1 north of where Chendu was - start worker

IBT
Seoul riots (more resistance ended and I forgot to starve them down...again...double grr...)
Ulaangom (named after the tea) worker to cat in 20
Uliastay worker to worker in 10

Turn 10 (50AD)
Take out 2 archers outside of Xinjan and 1 Spear inside
Set-up for the next better player

Post turn report:
Sorry for the mess I've made of our forces (they are kinda spread out in the north)
It should be possible to take out Xinjan and The one NW of Tsingtao in the next 2 turns
Or if you want to leave Xinjan for 20 turns we could take Shantung and Nanking for peace
Korea still will not give us Republic for peace...hmm... I'd take a few more or all of his cities.
The Baekjen have been beating up on the Koreans and have taken a few cities.
Do not worry about changing any of my builds. If you think it's good for the team change 'em.
Everybody is up Republic Except Raj, Han, and Tok
Bajekje and Khw are up Mono

Pictures tomorrow or sat. I cant stand waiting on dialup to load em.
The Save is Here

 

[AlanH]

Wel done, Mistfit. Sounds like you did a better job of acquisitions and mergers than me

Baekje were a "minor civ' in GOTM25. I believe they had 4 settlers as starting units and no ability to build new ones. There were about 3 such civs in the original game. Sounds like both Baekje and Khwarizmia are scientific. And Russia is as well.

I wouldn't bother with Replublic ... who needs it? Monarchy is the way to go for us. Either go for the jugular with Han and get it over with, or fight him down to three cities and take two of them. If the latter then we should fight for the ones we want to replace, and raze/auto-raze them.

 

[DJMGator13]

Here are the pictures of our 2 fronts (posted for Mistfit since he access at work and plays at home)

The KOR front

The final 4 Han cities

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't forget that the last KOR city my be that blue border near the unknown brown border. Also don't forget that the landmass north of BAE was full (over 20 in one count) barbs, which is why it looks unsettled.

EDIT: OOPS forgot to say good turns

 

[AlanH]

Wow! You certainly made a mess of Han and Korea! Great work. I didn't realise from the timeline just how many cities you wiped out/took over.

 

[Karasu]

This time I've been the faster with our roster...

- Karasu: oh, dear, I am up!
- Grunthex
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit: just done after swapping with Alan
- AlanH: back in his original position (no, you don't get to play again! )
- Nikof (out till the 28th, that is almost back)

 

[Karasu]

Just a few random ideas

- Republic. Is it really that bad? That's to say: I am still favouring Monarchy, but let's think about it some more.
Since we are doing no research, we can keep the luxury slider relatively high. We are also going to use fast units, which may allow us to spend little time within enemy borders, thus reducing war weariness somewhat.
I just can't remember if we are playing with the 'new' Republic in terms of unit support: if that were the case, we would probably be able to afford a larger army in Republic, given the outrageous number of cities that we will build in the newly-conquered lands.
But as I said, it is all idle speculation -just for the fun of talking things out.

2. Given the wonderful UUs that we have, we may want to start discussing what mix of the various units we want. I'd be inclined to test them all, but I remember a discussion at the times of GOTM25 about an 'ideal ratio' between the different species.
With the destruction that you guys brought to the Han and Koreans, it is almost time to start building units for the MA upgrade

3. Just for a confirmation: Xinjian and Shantung get relocated at distance 8, right?

 

[DJMGator13]

1) I've never pushed for wars in republic. I know it can be done. What are the keys (other than lux slider) for keeping WW down during a Republic assualt?

2) The UU which feature bombardment ability look like very good choices. I did not play the original so I have not seen these units in action or what the mix ratios were.

3) Yes, Alan indicated that "At radius 8 Beijing's second ring will define a set of towns within 8.x from our FP that will have corruption rank no worse than the number of ring 5 cities round Beijing."

Good Luck on your turns.

 

[mad-bax]

I thought war weariness was more to do with how long you'd been at war against a particular CIV than how long you had been at war altogther. Once the war with a particular opponent finishes don't you get all those war weariness points accumulated against them back? I think you do.

That is how you conduct war in Republic. You can stay at war all the time so long as you cycle through your opponents reasonably quickly, and if you can't finish them off, just make peace and fight somebody else for 20 turns.

I might be wrong though...

 

[AlanH]

I became a real fan of Republic for warmongering with the new rules on unit support. If we are on the new rules then I'm in favour, but GOTM 25 didn't use them as far as I recall. We ought to get a ruling ... M-B? Anyone?

If we want to use Republic then the wars need to be short. It doesn't matter if they overlap so that we are constantly at war with someone, as war weariness accumulates per enemy. When you kill an enemy or make peace the war weariness for that one disappears. If you restart on that civ you get it back again less some decay. To minimise WW you have to ensure that the enemy doesn't capture or retake your cities; you should try to have no units in enemy territory, or enemy units in your territory, at the end of turn; and you should avoid deaths of your own units.

All our UUs have bombard, they are all fast, but Bagatur Hordes are the ace units. I found the Korchin OK for specialist operations - winkling out spears or pikes in mountains, for example. Ordu Archers seemed a bit weak and feeble - I seem to recall I lost a lot of them. If you can't play the treat game I linked to in one of our early posts, scan the spoilers for GOTM 25. People like SirPleb worked out how to use the UUs very effectively.

[EDIT] Crossposted with M-B. We agree on WW. C'mon, then! Which version of Republic are we playing with?

 

[mad-bax]

Republic:
Cost per unit 2gpt
Free unit support 1t, 2C, 4M

 

[AlanH]

Thanks, M-B. That makes a big difference. I think we should go for Republic and fast wars

 

[Mistfit]

I think that Alan will have to waste a few of his early turns re-setting back up units to make getting the last few Han cities. The last couple of attacks that I made on the Northern Cities did not go in my favor. There are quite a few injured units up there.

Side note: The Baekje have a unit that looks a lot like a leader or an Army. This gave me a bit of a suprise when he would pop up out of the fog in the Korean lands. For about 3 turns he went back into the fog in the IBT before I could click him.

Also: Be careful with that Korean Footman. It may have just been bad RNG but those things were kicking my butt for a while. I think you can expect 3 per city plus an archer. Soeul even had a Cat in it! I rarely see AI building those. Have fun and don't cuss me out to badly when playing

 

[AlanH]

Not me. It's karasu's problem now.

Footmen are just spears with fashion sense. And AI spears and footmen all seem to enjoy a particularly charmed life in the care of the RNG. Don't forget that when they are fortified on a hill they are 50% stronger than a horse.

 

[Mistfit]

Morning Alan...and yes you are correct Karasu will have to deal with those units.

 

[Mistfit]

3. Just for a confirmation: Xinjian and Shantung get relocated at distance 8, right?

I think no on Shantung - but it might autoraze by itself

I thought yes on Xinjian but Alan says not(I think ).

Well, we're not short of settlers Since there's a perfectly good 8 ring location on a river, and planting a city on it turns a tundra into a 2fpt tile, I'd say there's a strong case for using one of our settlers there. Razing it leaves a roaded grass tile, I think. [EDIT] Checked the save, and no, it doesn't It's on tundra now. Moving it puts very little food in its 9-tile radius. We'd need extended culture or near neighbours to get any food there.

Edited on IPO third post in a row.

Edit: And I think Chengdu should come south one, not north. We lose the gold hill otherwise, and while minor, it IS 3 gpt in our treasury.

OOPs I missed that one. I settled it to the north. Do we get the additional gold if we settle on top of the gold? I did not think that was the case, but sorry if I messed that up. Also have you ever tried breaking frozen bambo? Just seeing if this was from personal experiance.

 

[DJMGator13]

Do we get the additional gold if we settle on top of the gold?

Yes we do.

 

[Mistfit]

again, oops

 

[Karasu]

Pre-turn: 50 AD
We have 30ish Gospodar and little else. In view of the future upgrade, I start putting a few more Mangudai Bowmen and Anda Swordsmen in production.

Turn 1 - 70 AD
Production in Ta-Tu switched to Temple to allow border expansion and future grow (whale)
Can't remember what the settler in Tosontsengel was meant to do. I'll leave him there for another Mongol city in this island.

Our troops amass at the gates of Xinjian and Cheju. Cheju is also seeing several Baekje Bushis...

IT
Baekje capture Cheju without losses. Just one turn ahead of us... well, it will be ours soon anyway...

Turn 2 - 90 AD
Attack on Xinjian
Vet Gospodar redlined agains vet Spearman, retreats
Vet Gospodar kills reg Spearman, loosing 2 hp. No promotion
Elite Gospodar kills reg Speaman, loosing 1 hp
Elite Gospodar killed 2/4 Spearman
Elite Mangudai kills 1/4 Spearman, capturing city with a Settler.

I take peace from Han for their two remaining cities (Shantung would have auto-razed if captured). Their capital has moved to Macao at the north.

Our troops near Cheju move south. Baekje are now marching towards the other Korean cities, and we will need some units to attack them as soon as we wipe the Koreans.

IT
Korea and Baekje make peace

Turn 3 - 110 AD
Ops. I realize now I should have moved Shantung -so autorazing was ok. Sorry, mates, we will have to move it now (the temptation of acquiring another city made me forget our RCP plans). No big deal, actually, until we manage to move the Palace to Beijing.

Attack on Hyangsan
Vet Gospodar redlines reg Footman and dies
Vet Gospodar redlines reg Footman and dies
Vet Gospodar redlines promoted Footman and dies
Elite Gospodar kills redlined Footman
Vet Gospodar kills redlined Footman and takes Hyangsan. Now onto Pyongyang.

IT
Nothing happens

Turn 4 - 130 AD
outbreak of unhappiness in our main cities. Well, I have moved a few units that might have acted as military police in one or two, but this looks really like overreacting from our people... Maybe they didn't like the peace deal with Han.
Well, whatever. I hire a few taxmen, and we are hooking Korea's dyes in a few turns.

IT
Baekje and Tokugawa sign peace.
Order is restored in most cities.

Turn 5 - 150 AD
Rush Harbour in Tosontsengel
Troops approach Pyongyang
I decide to set the lux slider to 30% for a while to calm our unhappy fellows. As soon as dyes are connected, we can move it down a bit

IT
Nothing

Turn 6 - 170 AD
Karakorum completes Marketplace and gets back to building Settlers.

Attack on Pyongyang
All catapults miss their target
Vet Gospodar kills reg Footman, is redlined
Elite Gospodar kills reg Footman, Pyongyang is captured with a habour. Good news for our luxuries. Lux slider goes immediately back to 20%

Contact Korea. They are left with their capital only -which must be the blue border to the east, indeed- and they will offer Republic for peace. Make the deal, but do not revolt.

I start preparation for war against Baekje.

IT
Nothing

Turn 7 - 190 AD
Monarchy and Fedualism are around, both are offered at 1000 gp. I would like to see if we can make another contact before trading for them (got a suicide run going next turn...)

IT
Nothing

Turn 8 - 210 AD
Troops movement

IT
Korea allies with Tokugawa against Rajaputana

Turn 9 - 230 AD
More troops movement.
Found Tumentsogt near Seoul. Start barracks, but can be changed to anything.
Misclick and leave the Galley in japanese waters off the coast. That's two suicide runs this turn, then...

IT
Nothing

Turn 10 - 250 AD
Yet more unit movements.

Notes
There is a settler going towards the Chinese area, to fill in the spaces. The old Chinan site is an idea, or any other place.

There is one horseman on a galley near Ch'ongju, with the idea of cutting off their Iron if possible (although it won't be easy if we want to declare war honourably...).
Some troops are already on Galleys off Atlay; other ones are amassed in Wonsan and Seoul.

Our army is now composed of 31 Gospodar Horsemen, 21 Anda Swordsmen, 6 Mangudai Bowmen and is rated strong compared to Baekje.
We also have 8 Galleys.

The Japanese galley sunk, but the real suicide one made it to the other continent, and spotted a red border. No cities in sight, though. Whatever happens with new contacts, we can already buy Monarchy and Feudalism, switch government and start upgrading. Discussions...

Overall, wars with Han and Korea went well and there is already some preparation for Baekje.
I overlooked a bit city management, out of tiredness mainly (of course )

Sorry -no screenshots as I am at home now with my rusty 33.6 Kpbs modem... In fact, I am connecting in a hurry after a weekend out. I'll check back the thread tomorrow. Bye

The save, of course!