Just how common is the 'hipster' look?

[Borachio]

That's a recipe for getting me to trip over my own feet. For safety's sake, I need the occasional "left" in the mix.

 

[Traitorfish]

But when I say my boots may not be fashionable but they are functional, am I just talking nonsense?

I don't think we do attach meaning to absolutely everything, no. I think some people do try. I think they're doomed to fail.

"What's the meaning of a tree?" is the typical question that people ask in this situation.

Or are you going to maintain that the meaninglessness of a tree is the meaning which I'm arbitrarily assigning to it?

Seems to be verging on gibberish now.

I'm afraid you've lost me at some crucial step along the way. What is that you're actually taking issue with here?

 

[Borachio]

Well, you're the one claiming that all clothing is a matter of fashion, including clothing which is purely functional.

And that people assign meaning to absolutely everything.

Humans attach meanings to everything, it's how we operate, there's no escaping it.

I'm saying I think this is a bridge too far, and leads to gibberish. QED.

Some things simply don't have any meaning. Indeed, perhaps nothing really does.

 

[warpus]

Fair enough, but it's worth pointing out, nobody has denied the significance of function, so there's no pretence to puncture on that count.

Besides, it's not as if function and semantics are separate spheres. Both the functionality and the limits of functionality carry meanings: the functional principles underlying the design of skate shoes has gained subcultural connotations, for example, while the inappropriateness of formal wear to manual labour is a way of expressing authority. Humans attach meanings to everything, it's how we operate, there's no escaping it.

It's similar with the type of winter clothing I wear. I layer up - first layer is a merino wool base layer, the outer shell is a very thin jacket.. Anyway, these are all clothes designed for hiking, so function and performance are a lot more important here than what things look like.. BUT.. because they end up a bit more expensive due to the special fabrics required, and so forth, they also end up looking.. well, slick. They look good on me and I would even maybe call them "stylish".

I didn't mean to imply that you can escape fashion when buying clothing. I just meant that the function is usually more important to me than the look, so I think about function first and foremost.. unless I'm buying something like a suit or dress shoes, or work clothes, in which case priorities shift.

For example I wear my Peruvian hat in the winter, because it covers my ears. It looks a bit weird and people give me looks every once in a while, but it's an awesome hat because it does what it was designed to do very well. I have no idea if it works with my other clothes, but on a very high level I just don't care. It keeps me warm. I'm sure on some level I like that it's different and so on, and yeah, I guess in the end I'm probably a goddamn hipster...

 

[Traitorfish]

Well, you're the one claiming that all clothing is a matter of fashion, including clothing which is purely functional.

I claimed that all clothing has meaning, not that it's a "matter of fashion". "Fashion" is just the primary shared reference point we're working with, in Western society.

that people assign meaning to absolutely everything.

Humans attach meanings to everything, it's how we operate, there's no escaping it.

I'm saying I think this is a bridge too far, and leads to gibberish. QED.

Some things simply don't have any meaning. Indeed, perhaps nothing really does.

I wasn't actually speaking literally, when I said that. I was just trying to emphasise the idea that this something constant and expansive. That humans operate in a world of non-utilitarian meanings, and it's not possible to opt out of that.

It's similar with the type of winter clothing I wear. I layer up - first layer is a merino wool base layer, the outer shell is a very thin jacket.. Anyway, these are all clothes designed for hiking, so function and performance are a lot more important here than what things look like.. BUT.. because they end up a bit more expensive due to the special fabrics required, and so forth, they also end up looking.. well, slick. They look good on me and I would even maybe call them "stylish".

I didn't mean to imply that you can escape fashion when buying clothing. I just meant that the function is usually more important to me than the look, so I think about function first and foremost..

As I said, though, it's not about "fashion", in the narrow sense, it's about appearance. Even if you don't make an effort to follow fashion, you're still going to be picking your clothes based on how they appear to others, at least on some level. The clothes will at least be meaningful to other people, and in picking them, you're either navigating these meanings or you're just pulling things randomly from the shelf.

I mean, take hiking gear and other outdoor cothing. There's a whole coding to that stuff, and it begins with function, not only the manufacture, but even the colour. Pants are typically muted, usually grey, brown or green, recognition of the fact that they're going to get mucky. Upper half is usually a distinctly non-natural colour, which makes you easier to spot if a group gets separated, it gets dark, you need to be rescued, etc. And that palette, initially a matter of pure function, has developed into a distinct sartorial language, distinguishing outdoor-wear from work-wear or other, similarly utilitarian clothing. This allows such clothes to invoke the practicality-yet-sophistication people associate with outdoor activities, and communicates the very attitude towards clothing you're asserting here: "I'm mostly concerned with function and comfort, but, hey, I'm not a slob". That they don't care, but they don't not care. So this is actually a very good example of the point we're trying to get at, here, because the particularly way in which you choose to opt of mainstream fashions is itself laden with cultural significance, that even the ways you assert your distance from mainstream fashion is still part of a world of meanings of which fashion is the big shared reference point.

 

[Hygro]

That's a recipe for getting me to trip over my own feet. For safety's sake, I need the occasional "left" in the mix.

I just mean that you can use the word fashion or fashionable or any other derivative to mean different things. The English language uses a lot of words that each carry multiple meanings.

I know you know that, though.

 

[sophie]

Sure, I just mean that my main consideration is the functionality of the clothing, rather than what other people think of it.. which I admit plays a role, whether I want it to or not.

Kind of stretches the notion of fashion beyond breaking point though. To include functionality into the definition.

I rather thought fashion transcended such ideas. I thought it was all about self-expression and frivolity, and being in fashion refers specifically to the fashion of "now!", doesn't it?

Functionality is a huge part of fashion. This is what I meant when I said all that most people see of the "fashion world" is the avant-garde stuff, which, yes, is more concerned with pushing the bounds of possibility in design, form, and color than it is with producing something wearable. But in non-avant-garde fashion functionality plays a huge role in what gets put out. Ultimately fashion is a total blend of art and business. Sure self-expression is a huge part of things, but so is producing something that your patron can wear. Be that a red carpet gown for a celebrity or an a-line dress that will be retailed at H&Ms worldwide or a pair of hiking boots that you're picking up at your run-of-the-mill sporting goods store.

Functionality, obviously, is also a fashion statement. By wearing things that are functional you are saying (to me) that you are a no-nonsense kind of guy. You like to get things that work. You are probably outdoorsy and enjoy hiking and camping. Muted colors mean you probably don't have a particularly loud or flamboyant personality.

As Traitorfish has been noting. You can say "I pick things that look functional" but that is a fashion statement. Those products were designed by fashion designers. Your choices were dictated by your personal clothing and color tastes, which themselves are dictated by your cultural upbringing. And finally what you wear, whether you like it or not, is a fashion proclamation to the rest of the world about who you are and what you believe in. Every time someone looks at you they will be making a judgment about who you are based on what you're wearing.

 

[warpus]

As I said, though, it's not about "fashion", in the narrow sense, it's about appearance. Even if you don't make an effort to follow fashion, you're still going to be picking your clothes based on how they appear to others, at least on some level. The clothes will at least be meaningful to other people, and in picking them, you're either navigating these meanings or you're just pulling things randomly from the shelf.

I mean, take hiking gear and other outdoor cothing. There's a whole coding to that stuff, and it begins with function, not only the manufacture, but even the colour. Pants are typically muted, usually grey, brown or green, recognition of the fact that they're going to get mucky. Upper half is usually a distinctly non-natural colour, which makes you easier to spot if a group gets separated, it gets dark, you need to be rescued, etc. And that palette, initially a matter of pure functional, has developed into a distinct sartorial language, distinguishing outdoor-wear from work-wear or other, similarly utilitarian clothing. This allows such clothes to invoke the practicality-yet-sophistication people associate with outdoor activities, and communicates the very attitude towards clothing you're asserting here: "I'm mostly concerned with fashion and comfort, but, hey, I'm not a slob". That they don't care, but they don't not care. So this is actually a very good example of the point we're trying to get at, here, because the particularly way in which you choose to opt of mainstream fashions is itself laden with cultural significance, that even the ways you assert your distance from mainstream fashion is still part of a world of meanings of which fashion is the big shared reference point.

Yeah, I think I sort of know the exact image I might portray, after I have worn a particular item long enough and start thinking about it while I'm on the bus with nothing better to do. Sort of. I've noticed that students on campus wear certain brands that I wear, not because they are good functionally, but because they are perceived in some way to be fashionable. The whole campus here is a big fashion show, so that's why my hypothesis leans in that direction. So I imagine that when passersby look at me they might see a very fashionable individual who is moving through like in a very functional way as well, and that peruvian hat adds a bit of intrigue that likely leaves them in a very high opinion of myself and anything that might be associated with me. On bad days I of course assume that everyone thinks I look like a freak and should be cast out of society so that nobody has to look at my face.

Maybe I should start reading things about fashion. It would probably help me pick out clothing that will make me look even better in the eyes of others. I have learned over the years that your appearance makes a big difference. If you come across as well groomed, well mannered, and wear situationally appropriate attire, then you have a much higher chance of success in social interactions with other human beings.

But whenever I turn on the fashion channel, there's dudes walking around with christmas trees on their heads. Or some other weird thing that I would never wear. So I shrug and base my fashion sense on my own internal fashion compass - whatever the hell that's based on. Mostly function, I think, but I'm also willing to spend more for quality, so I end up getting brands that look better and might be popular and/or fashionable or whatever.

I don't even know what the hell I'm talking about. I'm just excited to finally be a season ticket holder for the team I've been supporting over the last 7 years. So that's all that's on my mind. It seems like we agree on some topics here, but disagree on others. It has been a pleasant exchange, but now I must continue celebrating, so I bid thee adieu. (okay, that's definitely something a hipster would say. I need to be more careful)

 

[Traitorfish]

For what it's worth, I'm not pretending to know anything about fashion. I mean, I dress like it's 1993, as I've done since I was 15. (And it wasn't 1993 then either.) I'm just saying, that choice still communicates certain things, so I may as well be aware of that. Trying to assert total autonomy in dress just leads you to the self-defeating claim that other people have total control over your appearance, so even from an individualistic perspective, it makes more sense to acknowledge that you're operating in a world not entirely of your own making, and trying to figure out what autonomy you have within that.

 

[Hygro]

For what it's worth, I'm not pretending to know anything about fashion. I mean, I dress like it's 1993, as I've done since I was 15. (And it wasn't 1993 then either.) I'm just saying, that choice still communicates certain things, so I may as well be aware of that. Trying to assert total autonomy in dress just leads you to the self-defeating claim that other people have total control over your appearance, so even from an individualistic perspective, it makes more sense to acknowledge that you're operating in a world not entirely of your own making, and trying to figure out what autonomy you have within that.

Dressing like it's 1993 is particularly fashionable right now....

 

[Borachio]

Functionality, obviously, is also a fashion statement. By wearing things that are functional you are saying (to me) that you are a no-nonsense kind of guy. You like to get things that work. You are probably outdoorsy and enjoy hiking and camping. Muted colors mean you probably don't have a particularly loud or flamboyant personality.

As Traitorfish has been noting. You can say "I pick things that look functional" but that is a fashion statement. Those products were designed by fashion designers. Your choices were dictated by your personal clothing and color tastes, which themselves are dictated by your cultural upbringing. And finally what you wear, whether you like it or not, is a fashion proclamation to the rest of the world about who you are and what you believe in. Every time someone looks at you they will be making a judgment about who you are based on what you're wearing.

As I say, this all makes perfect sense.

The way I dress though is, in effect, to pass unremarked. People seeing me in the street aren't probably even going to register that I'm there. And that suits me fine.

Interviewed by the police after I've committed my "crime" witnesses are most likely going to be saying "What guy?" In answer to the question "what was he wearing?" they'll be saying things like "some kind of blue or maybe black top type thing (could have been green or yellow), probably blue jeans but I'm not sure, maybe black or brown shoes (might have been white trainers)?"

 

[downtown]

I work for a digital media company. Virtually everybody at my office is either a beards + plaid shirt kind of guy, or a skinny jean, vest and skinny tie person. I might be the only person here who still shops at Target.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I work for a digital media company. Virtually everybody at my office is either a beards + plaid shirt kind of guy, or a skinny jean, vest and skinny tie person. I might be the only person here who still shops at Target.

Yeah, I hope any hipsters out there aren't still fooling yourselves into thinking you're some kind of nonconformist, I would just about sell my soul for a decent pair of pants that aren't "slim fit." I hate wearing tight-fitting clothing, and finding anything else lately is like striking gold.

 

[warpus]

For what it's worth, I'm not pretending to know anything about fashion. I mean, I dress like it's 1993, as I've done since I was 15. (And it wasn't 1993 then either.) I'm just saying, that choice still communicates certain things, so I may as well be aware of that.

Hey, whenever I've seen pictures of you, you seemed to come across as the opposite of a slob. I think. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

Trying to assert total autonomy in dress just leads you to the self-defeating claim that other people have total control over your appearance, so even from an individualistic perspective, it makes more sense to acknowledge that you're operating in a world not entirely of your own making, and trying to figure out what autonomy you have within that.

Fom my experience only the deluded try to have total autonomy over that sort of stuff. And many of those who try end up putting on the "uniform" of whatever anti-establishment group they're in. So they end up conforming to one look or another whether they admit it or not.

I have a friend who walked into a nice shirt store once and bought a shirt there. A very pricy one.. but it looked amazing on him. He noticed how it made him feel and what reactions he was getting from people, so he decided to spend more time thinking about what he wears. Anyway, long story short he ended up marrying the girl who works at that store. He would come back every once in a month and get her to help him pick out a new shirt for him. So now he has a pretty sweet collection of really nice shirts AND a wife. Completely different example from the one above - this one is about a guy who decided to "play the game".. which he's been pushing on me as well.. and I'm biting, but I'm just not a "super pricy shirt guy"... and I'm not on the hunt for a wife. But either way, if you dress nice, people will respond.

 

[Traitorfish]

Dressing like it's 1993 is particularly fashionable right now....

It is, which causes me no end of annoyance. It used to be that a plaid shirt, band tee and skate shoes marked me as a bona fide weirdo, but now I'm just some guy who doesn't know what to do with his hair. Anti-fashion to not-very-good-at-fashion almost overnight, and was I consulted? Was I buggery!

 

[warpus]

I actually haven't seen too many plaid shirts around here. All 20-30 year old girls don't wear pants here but rather skintight legging type things, ugg boots, weird looking scarves that aren't really scarves.. and the guys.. sort of seem to wear whatever. The look doesn't seem to have changed - some people wear this, some people wear that. Maybe fashion is behind the times here or I'm just not paying enough attention.

 

[luiz]

As Traitorfish has been noting. You can say "I pick things that look functional" but that is a fashion statement. Those products were designed by fashion designers. Your choices were dictated by your personal clothing and color tastes, which themselves are dictated by your cultural upbringing. And finally what you wear, whether you like it or not, is a fashion proclamation to the rest of the world about who you are and what you believe in. Every time someone looks at you they will be making a judgment about who you are based on what you're wearing.

Sure, but it's one thing to make a "conscious fashion statement" and quite another be interpreted by other people in a certain way due to your clothing choices.

I mean, some people will deliberately buy clothes in order to fit into a certain "fashion standard". They are deliberately trying to "look goth" or "look hipster" or whatever have you, while others are just picking up stuff they think will look good on them, and other still are only concerned with functionality. While you may read into all of those choices to draw conclusions about the personality of whoever is making them, the attitudes to fashion remain entirely different.

 

[Kyriakos]

I hate plaid shirts

 

[luiz]

I actually haven't seen too many plaid shirts around here. All 20-30 year old girls don't wear pants here but rather skintight legging type things, ugg boots, weird looking scarves that aren't really scarves.. and the guys.. sort of seem to wear whatever. The look doesn't seem to have changed - some people wear this, some people wear that. Maybe fashion is behind the times here or I'm just not paying enough attention.

No plaid shirts? In Canada?

Isn't this how all Canadians dress?

Spoiler :

 

[warpus]

Haha

They were popular in the 90s, because grunge music. I will never forget when my mom bought me my first red plaid shirt.. I proudly wore it to my friend's house. Turns out wherever I sat left RED MARKS. My plaid shirt was leaving red mayhem behind, and people hated me for it.

But no, I haven't noticed a plaid comeback here so far. I will be on the lookout.