KA01 - A Simple Deity Space Race

[DJMGator13]

Good Turns.

Should we do a little lux trading and earn some extra gpt?

Who should be next: we are Average to England and Strong against India. Although a quick scan does not show any additional luxes available in eithers territory.

 

[Mistfit]

Food looking turns there! Way to fill out our new core.

Notes to self:
1.) Learn latin
2.) don't follow Tomoyo in a SG

My vote is for England

 

[AlanH]

England makes a neat fit with our current territory. India is now partly separated by those two ex-Keltoi cities with Zulu impis in residence. Of course we could recover them as well .

 

[AlanH]

Good Turns.

Should we do a little lux trading and earn some extra gpt?

Could do, but we need to be careful who we trade with in case the trade route is disrupted by a war.

 

[DJMGator13]

Food looking turns there!

I wonder if Mistfit was hungry when he posted this??

@Alan - yes we need to watch the trade routes. We've already lost 1 deal with the Kelts because of that in this game. I wonder who did that ....um .... oh yeah, I was distracted by the thought of French dyes & wines.

 

[Tomoyo]

Food looking turns there! Way to fill out our new core.

Notes to self:
1.) Learn latin
2.) don't follow Tomoyo in a SG

My vote is for England

Food? And most of my latin really meant nothing (so don't worry about my notes for the next player), or something like "Lugdunum captured", which you could probably figure out anyway. (I have Latin as my last period class, and I played right after school...)

 

[Karasu]

Sorry, triple post. I don't know where did this come from. It wasn't here when I last checked

 

[Karasu]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Karasu]

Llatine loquere bonum est -now and then, at least. Right now, I'd need my dictionary...

I would take the English next (without forgetting that we are not playing for domination... ), but I would take a short break from wars and:
- try to develop our Entremont core a little bit
- give some peace to these lands
- wait for conquistadores to come and for the MA to end, so that we can trigger the GA right at the beginning of Industrial
- gift some luxuries in order to strenghten our research partners.

The last point is probably a good discussion topic: we are likely to need some gold from the other AI to be able to sustain 4-turns research.
But if we drain all their wealth, we are likely to (1) slow down their research and (2) be exposed to sneak-attacks as soon as they cannot keep on paying us gpt.
Not an easy balance to find.

Additionally, I would like to check if Ottos have already had their Golden Age. It may be interesting to get an alliance with them against England...

Ehm, where is the save?

And, what does "Tooi yozora ni, hikaru chiisana hoshi" mean?
Maybe "hikaru" = "bright, resplendent"?
I also have another question, but I am saving it for later times...

 

[nikof]

"Terre" from Tallinn, capital of Estonia. Wow, we've got a big civ now! Looking forward to reading through the pages at leisure when I get back.

Cheers,
nikof
p.s. the Estonians built some really great castle walls. Didn't seem to keep them from being occupied by other countires for most of their history... so the Civ3 engine is accurate!

 

[Mistfit]

Wow. I guess it's not a good idea to be posting with a 102 deg temp, bronchitis, and sinusitus. I think you guys new what it was iI was trying to say GOOD turns

 

[AlanH]

Ehm, where is the save?

And The Save

Hint: Look under any smilie

 

[Karasu]

:blink: :blink: I knew I was missing something... ...like a hyperlink...
but you are making it a little too obvious now, Alan

Ergo, nunc "habeo"! Et paratus sum turnos (ehm...) meos incipere Or should we try with spanish...

 

[Tomoyo]

Llatine loquere bonum est -now and then, at least. Right now, I'd need my dictionary...

Did you mean to say "To speak with Latin is a good [thing]? Because that's what it says.

And, what does "Tooi yozora ni, hikaru chiisana hoshi" mean?
Maybe "hikaru" = "bright, resplendent"?
I also have another question, but I am saving it for later times...

Those words are the opening words of the theme song of the anime show "Angelic Layer", and it means "In the far night sky, a star shines brightly", refering to "aspera nostrum est ad astra".

Ergo, nunc "habeo"! Et paratus sum turnos (ehm...) meos incipere

I would guess that it is something like "vertes".

 

[Karasu]

Yes, to speak latin is good
Although I never really spoke it, I must say, and I haven't studied it for a long time now...
>> Karasu nostalgically remembers them good old days

I'll take your guess for 'turns' -it does sound right.

I have the game running now, but I probably won't be able to play until tonight.

 

[Karasu]

Pre-turn
Sell Chemistry to Zulus, Americans and Iroquois.
The Zulus would offer 2 gpt, I just take all their cash. 24 gold from Lincoln, and Hiawatha is so poor that I just give it for free.
Hurry University in Barcelona, Library in Zaragoza and Ciudad de la Luna, aqueduct in Casa del Nikofa (all were at 2 turns to completion).
Rush Settler in Tours for 24 gold

I also disband a few warriors (well, almost all of them actually).

Ottomans haven't got the Great Libaray, so their Golden Age has not arrived yet. Now that I think about it, having their Sipahi across our continent is not nice in general. Maybe if we can help them with Newton...

Ottos and England have Democracy (the English are now in Anarchy).
Talking about which, both their Iron and their saltpeter are within reach of a Conquistador raid from within our Celtic borders.

I have just said that I didn't want to take gpt from the AI -and here I come, selling Ottos our Dyes for 6 gpt. Strangely, they would never accept a straight cash payment of 120 gp...
I give a look around, and I realize that we haven't got too many spare luxes.

Press Enter

Barcelona: University - Knight (a few more won't hurt)
Tours: Settler - Settler (it also needs aqueduct)
Toledo: Bank - Knight
Tomoyoton: Marketplace - University
Zaragoza: Library - Aqueduct
Casa del Nikofa: Aqueduct - Marketplace
Cataractonium: Temple - Aqueduct
Vitoria: Courthouse - Library

Ciudad de la Luna riots. Ehm...

Turn 1 - 460 AD
Hire a taxman in Ciudad. Mohacs is resisting too much, I'll starve them a little bit (just a little bit ).

Move workers around, Settler from Tours to found a city next to the Dyes (in the middle of the forest, but...)
Complete disbanding warriors.

Spend 25 gold this turn to get to Physics one turn earlier.

IT
Ciudad stops rioting and builds Library. Marketplace
Aldea de Ribannah: Library - Knight (then Marketplace)
Resistance ends in Mohacs. See?

Turn 2 - 470 AD
Found Logrono: Worker

Rush Temple in Mohacs, Rouen and Charthres, Harbour in Santander (misclicked, really)

IT
Elizabeth complains for our units being in her territory (where? Ah, ok, two workers when Liverpool's border expanded...) and promptly sends a nice stack of units next to Mohacs.
So much for my desire to postpone the war with England...

Turn 3 - 480 AD
Set French cities to marketplace (fully vetoable)

Not many trading opportunities with England. I give her our newly-acquired spare Dye for a few gpt. No way to get Democracy.
Ops. Our forces are a bit thin on the English border... Try to rearrange them somehow, sending our med inf towards the ottoman border and calling a few knights north (it will take a while, though).


IT
Elizabeth knocks at our door with a smile on her face and politely asks to trade World Maps. Of course, darling... anything else?
Oh, yes, a war declaration. How sweet of you...

Three English knights attack Verulamium. One dies, the other two kill two of our knights (both are redlined!). 2-1 England this round.
Their forces split around Mohacs into three Musket+Axeman pairs.

Turn 4 - 490 AD
We discover Physics, start on Magnetism at 70% (due in 6 at +22 gpt). I was thinking of Navigation too, for our UU and GA. But it has been accessible for a while, and I hope that someone is researching it for us.
Change a two or three builds from Marketplace / library to Knights.

Physics to Ottomans for alliance vs England (no way to get even 1 gp along with it)
Physics to Zulus for 35 gpt and alliance vs England
Physcs to Japan for 60 gp and 40 gpt
The other civs have no money, and they will want gold for a trade with Democracy, so I give Physics to India for their alliance vs England, then gift it to everyone else.

Bombard first English pair outside Mohacs. All catapults miss their target.

Kill the two redlined english knights outside Verulamium. One more can attack us next turn.
Elite* Knight of the New Palace kills Musketman in the open, and veteran knight finishes off the Axeman.
Another musket/axeman pair is killed in the open, costing us one knight.
Vet knight kills an english knight in the open. 8-3 for us now

IT
We loose two knights to english attacks, they loose another two.
Zulu forces appear on our southern borders.

Turn 5 - 500 AD
Kill a few more english units for two promotions and no losses (one knight is redlined). 15-5 for us right now.
Rush a couple of knights in our core; the English are coming with spears, longbows and axemen.

IT
Loose two more knights for three axemen. 18-7
A lot of (obsolete) Zulu units are coming north to join this war. I think I will sign a RoP with them.

Barcelona, Toledo: Knight - Knight
Casa del Nikofa: Knight - Marketplace (can be changed back to knight)

Turn 6 - 510 AD
RoP with Zulu.
Kill three english units to make the score 21-7
Rush Knight in Verulamium
In the meantime, workers keep on clearing the French forests.

IT
English longbow dies agains knight and promotes it. 22-7
Verulamium: Knight - Library (or knight, of course)

Turn 7 - 520 AD
Ottomans have Metallurgy. Guess what they are aiming at...
We are getting Magnetism in two

Elite knight kills musketman. 23-7
No more fights this round.
Our reinforcements reach Richborough. I send a scouting Knight on the mountain outside Liverpool, and it reveals the city to be defended by musketman. I think that we should wait for MT before we launch our counterattack: in the meantime, we can just pick at the offending English units and let the Zulu keep them busy in their territory.

IT
Madrid: University - Knight
Villalanh: Libary - Marketplace (but it could be Barracks and Knight as well)
Rheims: Temple - Settler
Grenoble: Worker - Aqueduct
Casa del Bamrapido: Library - Aqueduct

Turn 8 - 530 AD
Kill two english longbows and spearman: 26-7
The Zulus have Metallurgy too now.

IT
War weariness again. Hire a few taxmen/entertainers as appropriate
We discover Magnetism
Mistfitza: Library - Aqueduct
Logrono: Worker - Aqueduct

Turn 9 - 540 AD
Trading time again. I check the various nations for gpt. They are currently earning -or at least, they can give us no more than:
Ottomans - 82 gpt
America - 22
Japan - 21
Aztecs - 14
Iroquois - 0
India - 30

I trade Magnetism to Ottomans for Metallurgy and 40 gpt (about 50% of their income, trusting their GA to come by in a short time)
Magnetism and Metallurgy to Japan for Silks, Democracy, all his cash and 5 gpt
Magnetism and Metallurgy to Aztecs for Spices and all his cash
Magnetism and Metallurgy to India for all his cash and 27 gpt (just leave him a little margin to reduce the chance of a sneak attack if he can no longer pay his debt)
M and M to America for all his cash and 7 gpt
M and M to Iroquois for Gems

Hoping to help them spend more money on research, I gift some luxuries around:
Dyes to Zulu (now Gracious, never seen him this way!)
Furs to Japan
Incense to America
Wines to Aztecs
Furs to Ottomans (already have a lux deal with them)
Dyes to Iroqouis
These deals will expire together with the gpt-for-tech payments, so we can renegotiate them to get back luxuries and/or money 20 turns from now.

Set research to Theory of Gravity at 90%, due in 4 at +45 gpt. I still hope that someone else will research Navigation for us.
I hesitated a lot over Navigation, but I thought that we can afford to wait four more turns and hopefully get Conquistadores and Cavalries more or less at the same time.

IT
First skirmishes between Zulus and English. A longbow kills an Impi.
An english musket appears on the mountains bordering Richborough.
The moorish architect is replaced by a japanese designer who builds a nice wing for our stylish palace in Entremont

Turn 10 - 550 AD
One knight is following an english galley that moves south along our coast. We also have a med inf in Besançon to greet them.

Notes
Sorry I left some workers on auto-move towards the jungle.
A couple of ideas:

1) War: while it is true that the Zulus are coming with swordsmen and archers, they are quite a few. We should try to follow them with two-three knights, in case we manage to steal one or two English cities. I also started a settler there in case they take and raze english cities. Maybe a few more are in order.
From this point of view, researching ToG and waiting for Cavalries might have been overcautious... but this is not a domination game

2) From another point of view, with ToG we can rush Newton in case we get a leader, or give it to the Ottomans to trigger their GA. And England is going to be still alive when we need them for our Conquistadores.
I am afraid that we will probably have to research Navigation on our own at this point, since the AI is likely to be researching anything from Free Artistry to Economics, but not what we would like them to...

3) I love a third point when I only announce two...
I am starting to think that, after England disappears, India and maybe Zululand will be stealing useful space to a potentially stronger and research and trading partner such as Suleyman.
Let us think of this scenario: we take England, then we regroup and declare war to Shaka and ally with the Ottomans. We take his northern cities (hey, they belonged to the Celts in the first place, that is to us ).
At that time, we will be in the Industrial Ages, and we will make sure that Suleyman conquers all of Zululand as quickly as possible.
We will have two big civs in Golden Age, and that should speed our our research.
The drawbacks I see to this are:
- what if it doesn't speed up the tech pace? I mean, is it a sensible approach or should we rather have more smaller civs in the game?
- well... we are going to feed someone who has Sipahi...

At that point we can leave India alive just to have one more civ to lower tech cost, I think.
In the meantime, we would be giving techs and luxuries to the other continent, hoping they can contribute somehow to our target. So I withhold lux trading with Zulus and India.

Another possibility to be discussed is to let the Zulus grow at the expense of India, more or less in the same way, and to share this continent with them and Ottos.

No map again -but there are no significant changes... yet

And the save

 

[Mistfit]

Hmm...wipe out a few more civ's. And I'm the one getting constantly reminded that we are no longer the Mongols? I, of course, like the idea of ridding our continent of a few more occupants. I have been playing COTM and I have found the extra cities are great for popping workers out of for Jungle chopping and soon to be railroading crews. With the extra cities our unit cost will be less as well. I think if we get rid of India or send them to an insignificant location of exile in one or two cities it will be sufficient. I vote for leaving the Zulu alive and well for a trading partner. Also I'd leave them around just incase the Otto's get to big for their breeches we can pay the Zulu to attack them with us.

Once we get the land grab in order are we planning to switch to Demo? Have we pilliaged the English sources of Salt and Iron & Horses? Do the English have anything they could buy Allies in this war with? Could we sign a MPP with the Otto's? If I remember correctly it is one of the biggest boosts in attitude that we could possibly get (-10 IIRC)

BTW - I hope this is a bit more coherent than it looks at my initial read through. I am feeling a bit better, my temp is back to normal but still have very little voice to talk with.

 

[AlanH]

Good stuff, Karasu. I guess with nikof still on his world tour I'm UP?

@Mistfit: No, we're not the Mongols, the Spanish do it with much more style. But we still do it .

I'll check out your questions, but I have one answer - I don't rate democracy, I'm afraid. It buys you faster workers but more war weariness. Does it offer anything else over Republic?

One option - if we take over the continent we can run a science park, with lots of scientists all over the corrupt areas. With the Pyramids, currently on loan to the Ottomans, we'd be able to grow the cities fast and ICS the whole place. The sipahi are the only problem, but they're only 3 defence if you can get near enough to attack them.

 

[Tomoyo]

Good turns... Lizzy was asking for it...

As long as we can run 4-turn science (which should be possible with England, infrastructure in Gaul, and rails) we shouldn't attack anyone, unless they attack us. Just keep the whole world happy and researching and all is good.

Regarding the gpt deals, I think we should take from those not contributing to research, and only them, unless we ourselves are in financial straits.

 

[DJMGator13]

I still haven't looked at the save file yet, been busy trying to finish up my COTM05 game.

But, if we are planning on claiming OTTO lands anytime prior to tanks then we should probably go ahead and start it now and try to weaken them as much as we can before they get Sipahis. They may already be too strong for this though.

If we are planning to use them as a trade & science partner then we just want to keep a strong presence on the border and concentrate on ENG. But we need to make sure we go not look weak in the eyes of the OTTO.

An MPP as Mistfit sugested may not be a bad thing but I usually do not use them this early in the game. MPPs are often asked for by the AI and if signed they immediately attack someone, bring us into a war we may not want.