KhaNESII: S.P.Q.R

OOC: Time for explanations has gone, no? I also said nay to any law saying "raise new legions" because those laws do not seem to understand the reality of the republic - there isn't enough money to just "raise legions" around. Same to the law about paychecks.

Some are nay because I have been clearly saying it a lot - no one will receive two offices unless the situation is extremely dire, in which case the second office will be taken away as soon as possible.

Everything about illegal wars is useless as the consuls already agreed on a law for that.

I opposed everything in Gaul as I am opposed to the war and anything else done there.

And I opposed all senate requests for military movement. We have 5 legions. We can't just send legions around freely. The senate seems to be unaware of that.
 
Vibius Plotius Agatopus Votes on Proposed Laws

Law | Vote
1.3.1: | Aye
1.3.2: | Aye
1.3.3: | Aye
1.3.4: | Abstain
1.3.5: | Abstain
1.3.7: | Aye
1.3.8: | Nay
1.3.9: | Aye
1.3.10: | Aye
1.3.11: | Aye
1.3.12: | Abstain
1.3.13: | Nay
1.3.14: | Abstain
1.3.15: | Aye
1.3.16: | Aye
1.3.17: | Aye
1.3.20: | Abstain
1.3.21: | Aye
1.3.22: | Nay

OOC: That law is supposed to make your civil service-salaried government positions law stronger. ;)
 
OOC: It doesn't. Paychecks get very expensive and the republic can't take it every turn, for now it is an annual paycheck, we shall see if that may even have to stretch longer.

And I guess it all isn't really OOC. It is also the IC reasons for my voting.
 
OOC: It doesn't say the Republic has to pay it every turn. Infact, it merely guarantees that it is at a minimum a stable annual payment. And you're the one who started the whole Salaried Officers thing. But you voted and I voted. I'll wait until the vote is over. Wanna chat elsewhere?
 
"1.3.15: Amendment to Law 1.1.6. The Consuls cannot skip payment of salaries two times in a row, even during in Crisis. A chosen Dictator may choose to skip payment of salaries for the entirety of his term if he desires, on the condition that it the base rate is paid upon reinstatement of the Consuls." = means we have to pay it every 2 turns. That may not always be possible, and so, bad as a restricting law.

Anyway. Can't chat right now.
 
Perhaps. But then you can always appoint a Dictator when things really get Hairy. I get your point, but all I am trying to do is "hey, this gotta be paid or it is meaningless."

If this fails, I will try to pass a "cannot be skipped twice in a row" law.
 
It's why the position of dictator exists anyways.
 
Perhaps. But then you can always appoint a Dictator when things really get Hairy. I get your point, but all I am trying to do is "hey, this gotta be paid or it is meaningless."

If this fails, I will try to pass a "cannot be skipped twice in a row" law.
I doubt the possibility of a dictator while the Senate is obviously split.
 
Consul Bruscius to the Senate

I agree with Pachomius with regards to the Senate passing laws relating to troop recruitment and movements, our resources are always extremely stretched as it is, and as such need to be used in the most efficient way possible. Although we very much appreciate the Senate's input, sometimes their military proposals seem quite arbitrary and sometimes even contradictory, and they are often made with an incomplete understanding of the military reality both on the ground and on a grand scale. It is very difficult to create an effective strategy each season while also taking into account all such demands made on us by the Senators.

I strongly advise the Senate to focus mainly on civil and foreign policy in the future and leave military operations to the Consuls and Generals to decide between themselves. This will allow for a much better co-ordinated and effective strategy.
 
1.3.1 NAY
1.3.2 abstain
1.3.3 abstain
1.3.4 abstain - While I support the creation of an additional Legion, giving it orders is not, I think, our bailiwick.
1.3.5 abstain
1.3.7 NAY
1.3.8 abstain
1.3.9 AYE
1.3.10 AYE
1.3.11 AYE
1.3.12 abstain - I'm not sure I like the 'drop everything' implicit in the law
1.3.13 NAY
1.3.14 AYE
1.3.15 NAY
1.3.16 AYE
1.3.17 NAY
1.3.20 abstain
1.3.21 AYE
1.3.22 NAY - Let the man himself decide
 
OOC:

/continues to sit around in Greece watching the bureaucratic disaster of Rome in both horror and humor
 
1.3.1: Nay

1.3.2: Aye

1.3.3: Aye

1.3.4: Abstain

1.3.5: Aye

1.3.7: Abstain

1.3.8: Abstain

1.3.9: Aye

1.3.10: Abstain

1.3.11: Aye

1.3.12: Aye

1.3.13: Abstain

1.3.14: Nay

1.3.15: Abstain

1.3.16: Aye

1.3.17: Abstain

1.3.20: Abstain

1.3.21: Abstain

1.3.22: Abstain
 
The Votes of Albinus Quintus Cato
1.3.1: Initiate the office of the Praetor Parricidii (with choice of who to fill that office to be made by consuls in agreement after the bill passes if it does)- voting 'aye' does not signify that i would automatically fill that that office- the choice would be the consuls.

Aye. We live and die by our traditions and values and what greater tradition is there than roman law. As we undergo the transition from Sulla’s dictatorship to the Republic and its laws, we must strengthen our judiciary.

1.3.2: Initiate legal proceedings to capture and try the mob who killed the rebel patricians under the direction of the local governor Consul Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius.

Aye. The law must determine the fate of these murderers, not the mob and not the capricious and often contradictory will of the powerful.

1.3.3: Initiate legal proceedings to try the defecting legionaires. They should not just be offered early retirement for their trechery. I consider myself an EXTREMELY devoted supporter of our soldiers and am PROUD to have served in Rome's military but we cannot allow this sort of defection to be ignored. I don't call for their heads- merely for our laws and traditions to serve the function they are meant to.

The law must decide the fate of these men, not one senator.

1.3.4: Raise new legions to capture and try the rebel senator Gaius Caesar (to be commanded by a senator appointed by the Consuls)

Aye. While I understand that the budget is limited, I believe we must prioritize and the capture of this rebel must be high on our list.

1.3.5: Raise new legions to be placed under the command of a general appointed by the consuls to pacify Transalpine Gaul. The commander would have the specific duty to establish a position of strength and establish a peace treaty if possible- but only from a position of strength so that our international reputation does not make us look weak.

Aye. Placidius Aurelius Cassidorus said it best and I will echo his argument,

Like it or not, a Roman made the deal and we must honour it. In fact, I believe we are committed to any agreement that any of us make with another power, for the simple reason that the differences between us are far more obvious to a Roman than to, say, a German. Thus we are bound in the eyes of the world by the deals of a rebel.

We cannot seem divided and we cannot seem weak.

1.3.7: Accept Marcus Titus Scipio's offer to return to Rome so as to make it very clear that he is loyal to the senate. Appoint a new commander to assist in the battle with the central Gaillic confederation and command of the 1st. I recommend reappointing Marcus Titus Scipio in another theater - he has proven himself an able commander and we have need of them in the field. The final decision would be that of the consuls.

Aye. A new commander will be appointed and morale will not suffer greatly if the new commander be as competent as Scipio. In the meantime, we can confirm Scipio’s dedication to the laws and traditions that provide the Senate and Consuls with power over foreign military matters by accepting his return. If the Gods will it and if he can be of service, the Consuls will no doubt provide him a new appointment worthy of his martial skills.

1.3.8: Invest the governor of HIspania with the formal powers of an Envoy of Rome and have him meet with the Celtiben and Vascones to engender local diplomatic support and to prevent opportunism from these tribes while we deal with Transalpine Gaul and Gaius Caesar. (point edited in light of fellow senators wise arguments)

Aye.

1.3.9: Any war started without the prior express permission of the Senate/Consuls will be deemed illegal.

Abstain. This is already part of our laws and voting on confirming it or not is a waste of the Senate’s time.

1.3.10: The one responsible for beginning an illegal war will fund the replacement of lost legionnaires, and the costs (if any) of peace. Naturally, if peace is secured with a payment to us, the payment goes to the coffers of Rome, not to the private treasury of the warmonger.

Nay. For reasons outlined by Consul Bruscius

There is no need to legislate regarding the subject of legal and illegal wars. The Consuls have discussed the matter at great length and it the issue will be clarified in the coming Bill, including punishments for offenders. To make things clear, I am also completely against legislating for what the General must do/not do ''in the case of an illegal war'', making provisions for such an event gives it a sense of respectability, an idea that it is illegal, but basically fine so long as I pay the financial cost myself. Illegal wars will not be tolerated in the future for so long as I am a Consul.

1.3.11: Illegal wars may be retroactively legalized if the Senate so desires.

Nay.

1.3.12: Self-declared rebels are outlaws who have renounced the Senate and People of Rome, and all citizens of Rome have the responsibility to bring them to justice by whatever means necessary or that they are capable of providing, until the rebels are disarmed, incapacitated, captured, or dead.

Nay. This could easily lead to misinterpretation or abuse. I envision situations similar to that of the mob murders in Italia arising as a consequence of such a law. Let the proper authorities bring justice to the rebels, not a mob of angry plebians.

1.3.13: The Allied Gaul seeking settlement within Roman territory will be allowed to settle as well as receive a fund, size determined by the Consuls, to aid in said settlement.

Nay. We must stay and defend them, not relocate them.

1.3.14: is mutually exclusive to 1.3.13 and dependent upon the passage of 1.3.5. New Roman military presence in Transalpine Gaul would be charged with protecting our allies in the region and protecting their homes within that province.

Aye. We must never appear weak to the foreign barbarians or they will predate upon us.

1.3.15: Amendment to Law 1.1.6. The Consuls cannot skip payment of salaries two times in a row, even during in Crisis. A chosen Dictator may choose to skip payment of salaries for the entirety of his term if he desires, on the condition that it the base rate is paid upon reinstatement of the Consuls.

Nay. It is the solemn responsibility and duty of the Consuls to deliver the Roman budget. Such a proposal goes against our laws and traditions and I cannot accept that.

1.3.16 :Status of the Helvetii. An Envoy shall be sent to Helvetii to negotiate an official relationship with the tribes in that region. Reasonable effort shall be made to ensure this relationship will be peaceable or friendly.

Aye. An excellent idea.

1.3.17: This law brings into existence the office of Overseer of Gaul. This would act as a superior agent to the Governor of Transalpine Gaul, and any other Senators and Generals in the area of Transalrpine Gaul (excluding Consuls), which is to be defined as both Roman and Barbarian lands north of the Pyrenees and beyond the Alpes. This office is to be appointed by the Consuls, and will receive strategic directions in the Bill each season. Its primary purpose is to co-ordinate all operations within this chaotic province and find bring the Gallic Wars to an end in a way that is favourable to Rome and does not compromise the integrity of the Republic. Further aims and objectives will be set by the Consuls, in consultation with the Senate, however precisely how these aims are best accomplished will be primarily up to the Overseer to decide. The Overseer will not be provided with a fixed budget due to the need for flexibility, but may request the Consuls for further resources of any kind should they be necessary. The office shall remain until deemed no longer neccessary by the Senate.

Aye. Importantly, though a potent office, the power of the office lies with the Consuls and not with the office itself. I was worried that such an office would destabilize the balance of Roman power but the limitations placed upon it make me amendable to its creation.

1.3.20: Nominate Aulus Mucia Laetonius for Envoy to the Western Gallic Confederation to secure an honorable peace with them.

Nay. This proposal is unlawful and ignores our tradition. Again, it is the responsibility, the duty and the burden of the Consuls to appoint envoys. I suggest that the senate suggest the appointment of an envoy.

1.3.21: The chieftains of the Covenae and Biteroges are offered Roman citizenship and the rights to the majority of their land. In return, the Lands of the Covenae and Biteroges become part of the Province of Hispania.

Nay.

1.3.22: Senator Gnaeus Oppius Marsicus join Praetor and Governor of Hispania Servius Aemilius Celsus Arrianus in Hispania to help safeguard the Province from numerous potential threats and to fight the Rebel Gaius Iulius Caesar.

Nay. This proposal is unlawful and ignores our tradition. Again, it is the responsibility, the duty and the burden of the Consuls to appoint generals. I suggest that the senate suggest the appointment of an general.
 
1.3.1: Aye
1.3.2: Aye
1.3.3: Aye
1.3.4: Abstain
1.3.5: Abstain
1.3.7: Abstain
1.3.8: Aye
1.3.9: Abstain
1.3.10: Nay
1.3.11: Nay
1.3.12: Nay
1.3.13: Abstain
1.3.14: Abstain
1.3.15: Aye
1.3.16: Aye
1.3.17: Aye
1.3.20: This clashes with the clause in 1.3.17 where the overseer of the Gaulic situation is given full authority over resolving the current situation in Gaul. Due to my support of this clause, I must abstain.
1.3.21: Nay. Citizenship should not be given out freely.
1.3.22: I do not see the point.
 
A military cannot be lead via democracy.

OR CAN IT
 
OOC: The Senate can have input on anything that it wants. Historically it was the Senate who chose the Governors and the Senate who did, well, almost everything. Consul = executive, general, and senator with a veto. Consul =/= vice-dictator. In the ruleset, we can advise anything we please, but the Consul gets to decide what is and isn't executed. Nominations and recommendations for military measures are merely to indicate the sway of the political climate. If you want more Legionnaires in Gaul, vote for more Legionnaires. Don't vote against it if you wish to see it happen.
 
Can we move deadlines up a bit (generally)? This pacing is killing me and its not like people are adding more input at this time.

If this game was twice as quick, it would be better because people would maintain higher interest. The updates don't need to be put out quicker- just the player diplo and voting and stuff.

EDIT: Who is left to vote still?
 
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