Kosovo Mafia State, supported by the west!

[TheLastOne36]

I have it from reliable sources (The Croatians I stayed with and others I talked to) that Croatia was, in its earliest post-split days, a 'Mafia state'. And that such organized crime still wields great influence. That tends to happen in alot of fledgling states when they first start out. A bit of a power vacuum, corruption is rife, and opportunists will take advantage.

Doesn't mean that it will be a permanent state of affairs. And hopefully a legitimate government will take full control and assert proper, uncorrupted (as much as reasonably possible) authority. Considering they declared their independence weeks ago...I'd say they deserve a bit more time to right a rather battered ship.

So why didn't Montenegro become a Mafia State?

 

[plarq]

No more KLA for a start.

 

[Rik Meleet]

OK lets say you were wright!

Thank you.

But Cavic wore that t-shirt on semifinals too, why wasn't he warned that he can be banned because of the t-shirt (like the regulations say) why?
Why were they waiting for Cavic to go to the finals and then from the blue sky's they banned him?

I don't know - I wasn't there.
And it doesn't matter if he wore it earlier or not and if we was warned or not. He broke a rule and was denied further participation.
To name it "from the blue sky's" is just a tad incorrect. Cavic took a risk and the risk backfired. Can't really call it "from the blue sky" if you knowingly do something against the rules.

Stupid Kosovaran Maffia controlling the European Swimming Championships ...

 

[EnlightenmentHK]

So why didn't Montenegro become a Mafia State?

In general? Because fledgling state + power vacuum doesn't always end up a mafia state. It simply increases the likelihood. As for Montenegro specifically, I don't know enough about the place to tell you for sure.

Though I'd say that not having to fight a war for independence and having most of the infrastructure in place before the split probably helped a great deal.

 

[plarq]

Montenegro was smoothed out, while KLA is a suckass regime of militancy.

 

[Partizanac]

Thank you.
I don't know - I wasn't there.
And it doesn't matter if he wore it earlier or not and if we was warned or not. He broke a rule and was denied further participation.
To name it "from the blue sky's" is just a tad incorrect. Cavic took a risk and the risk backfired. Can't really call it "from the blue sky" if you knowingly do something against the rules.

Stupid Kosovaran Maffia controlling the European Swimming Championships ...

You always get a warning then if you don't listen you get banned! and it does matter if he wore it earlier, why didn't nobody mentioned anything?

 

[Partizanac]

So why didn't Montenegro become a Mafia State?

Who said it didn't! Italy put up charges against Montenegrin President for smuggling! and his kids are caught in all sorts of crimes, and got away with id cause their daddy is the prime minister! and Montenegro wouldn't get independence if it wasn't for the next door Albanians who came even from Albania to vote on their referendum!

Albanian Mafia is the main Mafia in Europe, if you'd do a bit of a research on NET you would agree with me

 

[plarq]

Generally yes--remembering Hoxza!

 

[innonimatu]

The "No politics" rule on this sport-event was clear. Cavic broke that rule and you seem to have a hard time seperating "sports" and "politics" as well.

It must be the pinnacle of hypocrisy, to forbid "political statements" in sports competitions where athletes allegedly represent nations and are given their awards accompanied by music from their national anthems... the whole "international sports competitions" crap is one big legacy from the age of nationalism. Which certainly has not ended, actually... nationalism is far too useful to dump into the dustbin of history.

Anyway, I know it's of no use to point out the truth of how things are to people. If it's too unpleasant to contemplate, if it conflicts with what they've been fed for years, they'll simply refuse to see it.

 

[emzie]

At my core, I consider myself a very proud American. Your nationalism scares the crap out of me.

 

[Gelion]

... and Gelion brings up a good point, despite being Russian and everything.

Yeah, I suck like that

Since you have decided that Serbs and Albanians can't live together why so adamant about denying the Serb-majority parts of Kosovo to stay with Serbia? I read a statement that said that we can absolutely not divide Kosovo but must ensure it remains a whole and multicultural entity, I mean WTH, the whole reasoning for this amputation is because the two peoples can't get along, right?

It's been many weeks now since they declared independance, and I still have no idea why this happend and who the hell benefits from this. It really makes no sense at all.

You won't get an answer to that question, because if you take away the media picture, propaganda and ideologicla rubbish you will end up with completely different set of goals as to why Kosovo was set up.
innonimatu put it best here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6631858&postcount=9

 

[JerichoHill]

And I'm beginning to think I'm talking to an Albanian

And that right there is the problem with your attitude

 

[Gelion]

And that right there is the problem with your attitude

Oh really? Let me get you a fan of American forein policy.... lets see how you get along. These people were in a war you know. Does that word mean anything to you?

 

[Elrohir]

I think it would be better for all concerned if we just ignored Kosovo.

I haven't really left Sweden, excelp when I visited Legoland in Denmark when I was a kid. And I went to Finland once. But that's it. Still, I care about stuff happening around the world. Not visiting other countries is a quite lame argument for not caring.

So much for caring.

 

[JerichoHill]

Oh really? Let me get you a fan of American forein policy.... lets see how you get along. These people were in a war you know. Does that word mean anything to you?

Was I responding to you?

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

Yeah, I suck like that

I was not entirely serious, but I think you understood that .

You won't get an answer to that question, because if you take away the media picture, propaganda and ideologicla rubbish you will end up with completely different set of goals as to why Kosovo was set up.
innonimatu put it best here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...58&postcount=9

This is actually exactly what I'm starting to suspect and was hinting at in the original Kosovo thread. Americans wanting unstability in Europe. But the Kosovo security force is all-European as I understand it and the timing doesn't make much sense. Our cousins to the East are falling over themselves to queue up to gain American bases in exchange for a couple of $ or possibly a few military toys so the need for more prescence in Europe can't be it either.

I don't believe its just for a laugh or to piss Russia of. So why?

 

[Gelion]

Was I responding to you?

No, its me questioning your point of view

I was not entirely serious, but I think you understood that .

Made me laugh, made you score a point

This is actually exactly what I'm starting to suspect and was hinting at in the original Kosovo thread. Americans wanting unstability in Europe. But the Kosovo security force is all-European as I understand it and the timing doesn't make much sense. Our cousins to the East are falling over themselves to queue up to gain American bases in exchange for a couple of $ or possibly a few military toys so the need for more prescence in Europe can't be it either.

I don't believe its just for a laugh or to piss Russia of. So why?

You mentioned a few reasons, but mainly to have another string to pull if Europe desides to disobey or becomes too powerfull. Sadly, few people in Europe see that.

 

[Swedishguy]

So much for caring.

I do care! By ignoring the Kosovars! They'll be kneeling on their knees and ask Serbia to integrate them again.

 

[JerichoHill]

Oh, here's my unenlightened POV.

In many posts, there's latent hostility towards those people who now reside in Kosovo. There's obvious hostility towards the EU, which is seen as a US puppet. Which to me seems silly, as the EU in the diplomatic sense, hasn't been buddy buddy with the US.

Thirdly, as for hostility towards Americans, supposedly I'm a fan of our current foreign policy. Thank you for assuming such, but sorry, you're assumption is quite far from the truth.

Here is my point. Kosovo was an area that since 1989 had been under pressure by its overseeing government, the one led by Milo. It is quite obvious to anyone who looks at the history, and especially some of the comments in this thread, that there is some real racial/ethnic divides in this Serbia region. History tells us as much.

You just don't go and do ethnic cleansing unless a whole lot of people are tacitly okay with it, Milo or no Milo. Just because he's gone doesn't mean that the attitudes or potential is gone, as it takes a whole group of people to commit ethnic cleansing, and gang press rape that was done.

I would imagine that a person's feelings about such aren't going to disappear overnight.

After that War, Kosovo was put under UN admin, which, being a world body, is not a puppet of the EU or US (remember, many people in the US do not like the UN).

So thats what I know. Serbs hate the Albanians and vice versa, and theyve been killing themselves for a very, very long time.

 

[innonimatu]

There's obvious hostility towards the EU, which is seen as a US puppet. Which to me seems silly, as the EU in the diplomatic sense, hasn't been buddy buddy with the US.

Some EU states had their own agenda in the Balkans, that's true. France and Germany, in particular, wanted possible new EU member states to be as small as possible, and that goes a long way towards explaining why they hastened to support the demise of Yugoslavia, even knowing it would probably lead to small regional wars. And at that time the US wasn't even concerned with the Balkans, I believe...

Here is my point. Kosovo was an area that since 1989 had been under pressure by its overseeing government, the one led by Milo. It is quite obvious to anyone who looks at the history, and especially some of the comments in this thread, that there is some real racial/ethnic divides in this Serbia region. History tells us as much.

Ethnic divides have always been latent in Yugoslavia. It took most of the other republics to balance out the Serbians, and when France and Germany supported politicians in Croatia and Slovenia in their bid for independence they had to know what would follow...
Plenty of blame to throw around, if you want to look at history. And we could go even further back, to the Balkan Wars, to what happened during the german and italian occupation, etc. But those old events, I believe, were no more important by 1989 than WW2 had been for franco-german relations at the same time. No, Yugoslavia's unraveling and the wars that followed should be blamed on more recent actions. Milosevic was undoubtedly on of those responsible, but there were many other actors, both inside and outside former Yugoslavia.

You just don't go and do ethnic cleansing unless a whole lot of people are tacitly okay with it, Milo or no Milo.

Kind of what happened with Krajina? At least on that occasion the ethnic cleansing was allowed in order to make international borders coincide with ethnic borders. For better of for worse the matter was settled. On Kosovo, however, new borders were created, and and everyone can see those are not definitive.

After that War, Kosovo was put under UN admin, which, being a world body, is not a puppet of the EU or US (remember, many people in the US do not like the UN).

Was put under UN civil administration and NATO military occupation. Those were the terms imposed on Serbia through the 1999 bombing campaign. The terms dictated to Serbia for the UN "mandate" were also very clear about what nations would appoint the new ruling bodies for the captured territory. Finally it's also worth noting that the bombing was done in violation of the UN charter, and that says a lot about the practical power the UN holds...

So thats what I know. Serbs hate the Albanians and vice versa, and theyve been killing themselves for a very, very long time.

No, they haven't, that's just a convenient excuse to refuse to think about the problems there. All those petty states in the Balkans are 19th century inventions, they had no prior existence. Oh, they'll present lots of claims about their "ancient history and rights", but what outsiders would take those seriously? Even their national languages were made up in the 19th century, mostly by a handful of german-influenced intellectuals in Vienna, who picked features form one or a few local dialects and later (after managing to take power) suppressed others.

Ancient hatreds would not be about being "serbian", "albanian" or "croatian". They would be about being an inhabitant of this or that village, this or that region, or adhering to this or that religion. National identities are recent there. It was the forceful creation of those identities from the ancient mosaic of identities that led to the wars. Government propaganda (often coming from different governments and conflicting), both for the inclusion of certain groups, and against other groups, set the stage. Just as hatreds were fabricated, they can be dispelled. But the same parties that stroked hatred to create borders and start wars are still at play there, and are not at all interested in even considering that - instability suits them. Milosevic played the nationalism game and lost. But NATO also played it. And it's winning!