KotOR Mafia - game thread

[Verarde]

Particularly thinking of Verarde

Thanks mate. I appreciate that.

I did enjoy the game, particularly playing as Zaalbar.


Rhauanouaa hauuioo rooouaahoaoaa huaaurouaa raaauowouuw roaao rriauaaawoioiau.

 

[topsecret]

The point was that Bounty hunters were meant to gang up on people, and/or act defensively as well.

See, not many of the other bounty hunters attacked regularly, but even though I failed my VC, I got my PG.

Still, awesome game!

 

[spaceman98]

By the way, I dissagree with the claim that the town was overreliant on cops. The town was like that at first, but they quickly gave up on the idea. I was actually trying to get the town to stop trusting cops, since I knew the cops would scan right eventually. Thus my bounty hunter rights campaign. It also helped my roleclaim, but that did not save me in the end.

By the way: my private communication with Pizzaguy

Hello

The word may or may not be out, but I'm actually neutral and I'm looking for other neutrals.

I note that you're on the chopping block for today. Do you want my vote support?

I'd be willing to vote whichever way. The price is simply a claim, no charge this time.

I have already roleclaimed in thread and yes, support would be nice. What other info would you like about me?

My actions? I have been placing some bounties, on lurkers mostly, however you guys killed off all the bounty hunters, so my money, ability and goal are pretty much going down the drain.

Actually I know of several still alive.

All I really want to know is whether or not you'd be willing to support a pro-neutral stance.

It sounds like you would. We're just looking to make certain no claimed neutrals die by the lynch unless it can be proven that they're mafia. Simple simple, logical, reasonable, and shouldn't offend you regardless of your alignment, be it town, neutral, or scum.

The time may come when I ask you for a similar voting favor to save one of us. After that favor is repaid, you're free to vote whoever.

Fair deal? If so, I vote in your favor today.

Yes. I am quite surprised that the town decided to lynch me. A survivor neutral wants the town to win since many more people survive from that than a scum win, right? I agree that neutrals sould probably make an effort to work together and will vote in support if required.

I think you're dead and proven scum. That's a shame; was looking forward to working with you.

 

[NinjaCow64]

You know what's hilarious? Before the second time I died, I revealed that I had a minor protection role to ATPG. He didn't kill me, so I figured that he was my ticket to the townie network and that he wasn't Mafia, so I told him my character name. Then he said something along the lines of "Dude! Don't reveal that you are such a major character to everyone! What would happen if I was scum?" then he killed me.

 

[choxorn]

Looking at it again, I now realize I don't need to worry about the stats.

I'm not completely sure, because a couple roles like BL and Mat I can't tell if they're townies or neutrals, but I count 20 townies, 10 neutrals, and 10 mafia.

Perhaps I should re-think my "more than half the players must be townie" rule, if a game that the town won as easily this doesn't count under it.

I suppose I could go "More than half must be townie, or at least neutrals that can't kill people" or place an upper limit on the allowed number of mafia/SK type roles or something.

 

[edse]

Looking at it again, I now realize I don't need to worry about the stats.

I'm not completely sure, because a couple roles like BL and Mat I can't tell if they're townies or neutrals, but I count 20 townies, 10 neutrals, and 10 mafia.

Perhaps I should re-think my "more than half the players must be townie" rule, if a game that the town won as easily this doesn't count under it.

I suppose I could go "More than half must be townie, or at least neutrals that can't kill people" or place an upper limit on the allowed number of mafia/SK type roles or something.

There is a large difference when there are multiple teams though, are you regarding that?

10 players in the game

5 townies, 1 neutral, 4 mafia
5 townies, 1 neutral, 2x2 mafia

 

[Arakhor]

We had 10 Jedi, 9 Republic, the Exile, 5 Revanchists, 5 Triumvirate, 7 bounty hunters and 3 neutrals. The Triumvirate cover roles should have been better and maybe Juhani should have flipped Mafia as well as Belaya, but hey.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I have to ask, during the actual stealing portion did you suspect it was me, or did you only figure it out once the game ended?

You and Buddhafish were my prime suspects, with Beefy and Xenoneb being lesser possibilities. (Hence my putting higher bounties on you lot, along with what I thought were the remaining scum - johnhughthom and Double A. Not that I really expected to see any further bounty killing at that stage).

You tactic to bury the money in the noticeboard was quite brilliant, though I wasn't entirely certain if that meant you no longer 'owned' the money. I assumed that it meant that you didn't, and since I had access to the board whenever you pulled the money back I'd just rescan and re-steal from you.

It kept the money protected during the daytime, but I'd have needed to take it out during the night before the final day, or I would have ended up with no credits at all. That aside, the scam was pretty much watertight, as far as I could tell. I'm kicking myself for not figuring it out earlier.

By that point I think I was aware that Buddhafish also had a good chunk of change laying around but given the environment I was in at the time didn't want to risk him finding out about me doing the stealing, so I figured I'd only steal from him if I absolutely had to.

Aye, Buddhafish showed a lot of game here. His increasingly close relationship with pizza was one reason why betrayal seemed so attractive, especially since he knew more about me than I did about him (it was a mistake on pizza's part to show off his other neutral friends to me - the value of his assistance was severely diminished if it was to be shared with my rivals).

 

[Mergle]

By the way, I dissagree with the claim that the town was overreliant on cops. The town was like that at first, but they quickly gave up on the idea.

Yeah, the only person we primarily lynched because of a scan was SamSniped, who was scanned by Earthling as a "blind female". We thought there could only be one such person in the game. We were wrong, but he was still mafia! Incidentally, I scanned Sam as lightside... and we still went for him. The scans were just part of the info we put in the mix. The only real use of the scans - which was a risk - was that I did on nights 1 and 2 on bringing choxorn/zack and then Earthling in. But I was going for "either my ability is useless and I might as well get killed early or I have a chance to win this for the town". And with choxorn, the mason connection via Zack basically confirmed the lightside straight off (so yes, that would have been bad if zack had switched although ironically Earthling never trusted him!) Setting up the town network was my big contribution. Bsmith was definitely town MVP. I am astonished noone tried to kill him all game.

Basically, we'd identfied all the mafia at the point pizza was lynched - we only got one wrong (we thought it was double A, not dreadnaught who was the last). From then on, we just had to keep lynching them one by one, knocking off one team at a time to reduce nightkills, before they could kill the town. Only one bit of confusion when Gong 4 teh cello looked scummy - from behaviour rather than a scan.

As BSmith says, what turned the game around was his saving of Earthling. Up till then, we hadn't got any sort of bead on the mafia, and I was concentrating on just getting the network up. That day I'd basically panicked, having seen jht (original) and jarrema buy it, and earthling heading for the lynch, while I was out of town for the weekend, which is why I went public (whilst knowing I could only be killed by some special effect like the one that did for JHT). Bsmith saved the fledgling town network, and the crusade on Earthling gave us the names for who we should go for.

We got lucky on atheotes (we'd deduced him on the other team - we noticed that immediately he was lynched - it was before our QT was created so its all in PMs) but apart from that our targets came from deductions from behaviour. (and I think ateotes-type luck was inevitable when there was a 1/4 chance of hitting mafia with a random choice). Even with ATPG, the tracking results just gave aid and comfort to our deductions, and Earthling pressurising winston confirmed it.

We kept up the appearance of an all-powerful scanning machine because that made it easier to get town-but-not-network onbaord with our votes - and of course, our repeated successes increased the credibilty. Incidentally, I'm glad to see my effort to indirectly make it look as though I was the roleblocker (to draw fire onto my bulletproofness) worked. Thought I might be being too subtle.

I think even if the triumvirate had been more active, we'd still have won. We wouldn't have lynched gone 3 (we were fooled by no kill on the night we blocked him, after his behaviour had seemed scummy), so that would have been a day saved, and with a bit more tension, we wouldn't have had all the town WOGs towards the end, so would have had more to die. And if the network had been depleted, we would have brought Verade etc. in. (We didn't really bother because the network was never seriously threatened until very late on when the win seemed locked in). Would have got m,ore bloody if Bsmith had gone down, but because we didn't really lynch many townies (2 all game, and one of those - dumanios - was the only time the network failed to control the lynch. Incidentally, I can see upthread that Double A was trying to play both sides, even if his role didn't turn out to work that way, which explains why he looked so scummy)

 

[Zack]

although ironically Earthling never trusted him

Why not? Because of Night of the Mindworms or something?

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Just want to point out that if the opposing mafia hadn't been inactive and the folks that were neutral stayed on side, the mafia would have owned the vote, and the end result would have been the same as certain other games the mafia gained control of the vote in.

Therefore not a "bad" performance by "the mafia", simply fell short with a strategy that was about to win, which failed largely due to non-coordination.

Town was about to become a helpless minority in a very big way.

Game became boring because the other mafia had no teeth/went inactive and the neutrals became uninteresting and helpless after the stronger mafia went.

Edit: Of course it was easy to pick out the mafia after my lynch. Had they all showed up and stood together, that would have been all she wrote for the town. Simply taking attendance would have won, but since they didn't all show, didn't all stand together, they were outed. Push failed, that was the risk. Wasn't in any way dumb, has been proven to win in situations where it's actually employed.

 

[Mergle]

Just want to point out that if the opposing mafia hadn't been inactive and the folks that were neutral stayed on side, the mafia would have owned the vote, and the end result would have been the same as certain other games the mafia gained control of the vote in.

Therefore not a "bad" performance by "the mafia", simply fell short with a strategy that was about to win, which failed largely due to non-coordination.

Town was about to become a helpless minority in a very big way.

Game became boring because the other mafia had no teeth/went inactive and the neutrals became uninteresting and helpless after the stronger mafia went.

Edit: Of course it was easy to pick out the mafia after my lynch. Had they all showed up and stood together, that would have been all she wrote for the town. Simply taking attendance would have won, but since they didn't all show, didn't all stand together, they were outed. Push failed, that was the risk. Wasn't in any way dumb, has been proven to win in situations where it's actually employed.

Agreed. It was well worth trying, and it almost came off (I got seriously worried that day). And we had most of your cards marked even before that day - it just gave us confirmation, so you really had no other workable strategy. In the end, you just didn't have enough margin for error - the town and mafia having both killed off a number of the neutrals. In particular, the town (via bounties) could still threaten the neutrals, even as it died, and I think that influenced some, particularly winston, who knew they would not survive mafia dominance. In the end, the town held together better than the badguys did in that crucial vote, and from then on it was a bit of a routine stomp - just as it would have been the other way if the mafia had pulled it off.

But ultimately, the mafia are always at a disadvantage in pulling off this trick in this sort of situation. The two mafia teams are competing with each other, and the triumvirate probably knew they'd end up stomped by the revanchists if they'd gone along with the "kill town" strategy. And I don't think either mafia realised just how much we'd worked out about each of them. Contrariwise, the town would all win together by voting together, and did so. You had to hold together an alliance of competing people who could not all win if they followed you. We just had to hold together an alliance that could win together.

 

[BSmith1068]

This is my suspect list (from our QT) as of Day Nine, before the Pizza lynch. Notice how many of the scum we had already identified at this time.

Inner Circle
2. choxorn Mason Zack's Partner
10. BSmith1068 jedi roleblocker
13. Beefy town tracker
24. Mergle Jedi Scanner
36. Earthling Jedi Race Scanner
19. Jarrema Mical, the Disciple killed Night Three, revivied

Town/Likely Town
11. Verarde wookie
16. dcmort93 Jarema vouching for him
28. The Black Knigh Revivied Jarrema

Neutral - Safeish
6. Buddhafish Dark side Neutral Criminal
39. Winston Hughes Hutt Neutral Criminal

Neutral - Unknown
31. JoanK blocked N3 Claimed Bounty Hunter
15. topsecret darkside

Most Likely Scum
17. askthepizzaguy light saber scanner
14. classical_hero blocked N7 darkside
23. Optical DaveShack bis Blocked N8 voting against ATPG
38. robbiecon SamSniped bis Darth Traya?

Unknown
18. Double A
29. Gone 3 the Celt
32. Xenoneb Droid
4. mechaerik voting against ATPG
7. Backwards Logic scanned Grey
8. JHT
9. Dreadnought Droid voting against ATPG

 

[choxorn]

We had 10 Jedi, 9 Republic, the Exile, 5 Revanchists, 5 Triumvirate, 7 bounty hunters and 3 neutrals. The Triumvirate cover roles should have been better and maybe Juhani should have flipped Mafia as well as Belaya, but hey.

So, the Jedi/Republic/Exile are Town (except BL, who had the Wealth victory), Revanchists and Triumvirate are Mafia, and Bounty Hunters and Neutrals (except Mat, who had the Innocent victory), are Neutral?

 

[Earthling]

Why not?

Inexplicably lied to us or misled us on what you discussed with johnhughthom, after johnhughthom died. Particularly the couple of posts that I quoted from jht about a quicktopic discussion (that choxorn said he didn't know about either); I can look up again. I also noticed that you had claimed you had been scanned in public when it was choxorn who Mergle scanned.

Mostly, though, it's that I would give you credit for taking advantage of a strong cover role and playing well as scum. Given you had no real night ability to use as an alibi, jht's scan of you as darkside, and if you were given a cover role and choxorn was given false information by the host you would have been in a strong spot.

If the hosts post the night action logs, I did scan you the night you died just to check what I'd get on the role; I'd only let like Mergle know that was my action for that night at the time.

That all said, we all knew you were like the first person accusing askthepizzaguy because of Kennigit's death, so I don't think your role converting to the scum team by later in the game would have easily gotten away if you suddenly reversed your opinions for no reason and decided you were friends with them. Now if choxorn had been murdered like at the start of the game who knows how that would have ended up. As it was you did help the town a lot and bit the bullet for it in the end.

One last thing, on SamSniped - I didn't get that he was "blind" in my night result, just that he was a human female. He actually wasn't human, that's one of a couple of my scans that were wrong I guess. I had only said that in the sense that "Sam's so obviously scum" and process of elimination for him being Triumvirate and died before you guys all really noticed and questioned that, and I couldn't clarify. I was rather surprised he was the other person he was, but then when I died I hadn't known the scum teams would have 5 and not 4 people either. It is true that the whole game a bunch of people didn't figure out the reason for SamSniped I's lynch, including himself, though that should have been clear from the thread by later in the game (also saved Zack, a plus for the town). Overall it was a good job by several other townies to use information effectively and on a lot of things never leaking to the scum a single clue - both scum teams really had no clue who or what many of the town power roles were.


Oh, and for the hosts - it seemed like multiple different people on their ends scanned me as lightside when my Role PM said I would scan Grey? Through me off just a little with Mergle, in that I was worried he wouldn't trust me - I obviously didn't know scum had scanned me, but was that just an oversight.

I have to agree the turning point was around Day 4 and the town had a solid lead by the spaceman lynch (both Red_Spy and spaceman lynched entirely by post analysis and in thread reveals) After then the mafia and neutrals altogether never had the votes to win anything at any point despite whatever they though or some neutral bounty hunters thoughts of importance (it was only because of townies like Dumanios not voting, and Nedim and Double A that one lynched slipped by)

 

[Zack]

Inexplicably lied to us or misled us on what you discussed with johnhughthom, after johnhughthom died. Particularly the couple of posts that I quoted from jht about a quicktopic discussion (that choxorn said he didn't know about either); I can look up again.

Huh?

I also noticed that you had claimed you had been scanned in public when it was choxorn who Mergle scanned.

Yeah, that was just a brain fart on my part, and it would have looked really bad to retract that statement.

Mostly, though, it's that I would give you credit for taking advantage of a strong cover role and playing well as scum.

Thanks!

If the hosts post the night action logs, I did scan you the night you died just to check what I'd get on the role; I'd only let like Mergle know that was my action for that night at the time.

That all said, we all knew you were like the first person accusing askthepizzaguy because of Kennigit's death, so I don't think your role converting to the scum team by later in the game would have easily gotten away if you suddenly reversed your opinions for no reason and decided you were friends with them. Now if choxorn had been murdered like at the start of the game who knows how that would have ended up. As it was you did help the town a lot and bit the bullet for it in the end.

I've bussed countless teammates; I don't see why I would have treated ATPG any differently. Although I think you're giving me too much credit for my suspicions of ATPG after Kennigit's death, that wasn't a very strong indicator of guilt IMO. I thought it was pretty clear that Pizza was a scumbag the round before he was lynched, although that was a while after I died.

 

[Mergle]

Yes, looking at those alive at the time of pizza's lynch, the town had a majority, so it wasn't a case that the badguys could have won by showing up. And if dumanois had shown up the day before, pizza would have quite possibly already been dead. So I don't think it was inactivity killed the mafia. It was just on days 4-7 the town basically figured it out and got in a winning position. ATPG then tried a hail mary which failed, and all the rest was (protracted) wrap up.

I really enjoyed myself. Many thanks to the town network which really pulled together, and to the townies who stuck with it to the end despite living in the dark most of the time. Really sorry to verarde that we didn't get round to bringing you into the network. Thanks to the hosts for managing to keep it going over such a long time with prompt updates and responses.

 

[Earthling]

Yeah, had to find the posts from the PM:

I can scan for alignment, or roleblock and protect the same target. Night one I scanned NinjaCow, due to Visor's claim, and got the message he was killed before I could scan. I hinted at this, in an unrelated QT, before the write up and Zack seemed unsurprised. Now this was in no way conclusive evidence of scummitude, but coupled with his odd behaviour seemed enough for pressure and scanning.

I didn't say sooner, because it only struck me now. It was Zack's post describing my character as a 'paranoid bastard' that made me think. My role struck me as odd the moment I got it, when I read I can also scan it surprised me, came across as an afterthought.




My reasoning behind that has already been explained, when I hinted at NinjaCow's death in a QT, you didn't act surprised. It was a pressure vote more than anything, I expected to take it off when a better target came along. In the end there was no need to unvote.

I know I asked you multiple times what this was about (one reason being that I was curious if there was a general Jedi QT for some others, my character having explicitly left the Jedi order/become an outcast.) Choxorn said he was confused as well as you hadn't discussed it as masons, and you seemed to deny knowledge of it. Again I easily could have given you credit for killing jht if you had been like the mafia godfather, and tried to cover up minor inconsistencies.

Until the end of the game with you two both dead I had just decided that it must have been for some reason jht's scan gave wrong results. Turns out (with the possibility of your character changing sides) jht's scan was just somewhat right all along, though you were town.

It all worked out though, and Jarrema and I did get to push the SamSniped bandwagon which prevented the failwagon on you from succeeding.

 

[Zack]

He was referring to a QT some people, myself and JHT included, use like a chatroom. I think that was clarified at least partially at some point.

And for the record, I was a light-side Jedi when JHT scanned me.

 

[Dreadnought]

For the record, I wasn't inactive as the final scum. I was intentionally NKing.