[LP] Leader Pass: Great Builders - 3/14 Developer Livestream Discussion w/ Potato McWhiskey

[Xandinho]

I don't think Sejong's ability is that bad. Korea is going to have a high generation of science anyway, as their design revolves around more and more science, at least now its high generation of science gives us a new yeld. Seowon giving 50% of its adjacency bonus to faith, and the other 50% to culture would be more interesting in my opinion, but still, the current one isn't too bad.

 

[kryat]

I really like the look of Sejong and Ludwig.

Sejong gets lots of mini Apollo missions, turning Korea’s leader bonus from an entirely flat, passive bonus to something that’s an engaging puzzle to solve. Bigger risks, bigger rewards. Korea remains top of the science tier list, but is now interesting to play.

Ludwig’s is hilariously thematic, where the dream of a wonder is all you really need. I’m a little sad they didn’t lean into the asymmetric play of going broke while you do it, but getting tourism for half-finished things is on point and should be a fun twist on gameplay. I’m most excited for this because I never use Frederick’s ability.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I don't think Sejong's ability is that bad. Korea is going to have a high generation of science anyway, as their design revolves around more and more science, at least now its high generation of science gives us a new yeld. Seowon giving 50% of its adjacency bonus to faith, and the other 50% to culture would be more interesting in my opinion, but still, the current one isn't too bad.

I don't think people say it's bad because it's weak, they are saying it is uninspiring. This is an ability that gives you something you want to do anyway, kinda like Ramses. Normally, a fun civ/leader is one who forces you to play in a different direction, makes you do something you not normally do, asks you to juggle more decisions than normal. Like I sympathize why the Koreans are pissed, Firaxis has 2 chances to make something decent and they fail both times.

Like how many of you like micromanaging when to research a tech of a new era and run projects at the exact same time you finish that tech to maximize the culture gained?

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I visited Korean civ community and their overall thoughts are... Fraxis shouldn't have bothered making him. They raised expectations... only to disappoint Korean community.
And yes they all say Sejong has weakest LA of all Leaders in this pack and has potential to be weakest of all LA in this pass.
I guess their only saving grace is model of Sejong and voices turned up ok?
So Sejong fans like me can enjoy pretty feels of playing top king of Joseon Dynasty... I guess...

Moderator Action: Ok you've made your point, that's enough --NZ
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[canadamufc]

An interesting ability I had for Sejong was that putting a district beside a Seowon gives +2 culture, making it so that you can essentially trade away science for culture by putting districts next to seowons. Maybe also give his libraries 2 works of writing and +1 GW point and that’s a solid ability in my opinion.

 

[Cooleatack]

I visited Korean civ community and their overall thoughts are... Fraxis shouldn't have bothered making him. They raised expectations... only to disappoint Korean community.
And yes they all say Sejong has weakest LA of all Leaders in this pack and has potential to be weakest of all LA in this pass.

I think the ability is boring too, but you have made your point clear enough.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I visited Korean civ community and their overall thoughts are... Fraxis shouldn't have bothered making him. They raised expectations... only to disappoint Korean community.
And yes they all say Sejong has weakest LA of all Leaders in this pack and has potential to be weakest of all LA in this pass.
I guess their only saving grace is model of Sejong and voices turned up ok?
So Sejong fans like me can enjoy pretty feels of playing top king of Joseon Dynasty... I guess...

Yeah we heard.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I hope rework is coming soon for Sejong on Workshop...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

No. I'm sure people enjoy playing Korea cuz they just want to chill and the abilities will play the game for them instead of any actual planning. If Seowon placement can qualify as a "puzzle" I really wonder what isn't one.

I'm not saying that it's the best puzzle, but it definitely set the stage for more unique districts puzzles afterward.

I don't think Sejong's ability is that bad. Korea is going to have a high generation of science anyway, as their design revolves around more and more science, at least now its high generation of science gives us a new yeld. Seowon giving 50% of its adjacency bonus to faith, and the other 50% to culture would be more interesting in my opinion, but still, the current one isn't too bad.

I don't think anyone is saying it's bad, just boring. Korea was already bland to a lot of people and the expectations that Sejong could get didn't happen.

I don't think people say it's bad because it's weak, they are saying it is uninspiring. This is an ability that gives you something you want to do anyway, kinda like Ramses.

Yeah, it is like Ramses but even more limited.

An interesting ability I had for Sejong was that putting a district beside a Seowon gives +2 culture, making it so that you can essentially trade away science for culture by putting districts next to seowons. Maybe also give his libraries 2 works of writing and +1 GW point and that’s a solid ability in my opinion.

I think just giving Seowon culture and faith based on science yields, plus the Great writing slots and points would work. Placing districts adjacent to them would conflict with the civ ability.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I'm not saying that it's the best puzzle, but it definitely set the stage for more unique districts puzzles afterward.

I don't think anyone is saying it's bad, just boring. Korea was already bland to a lot of people and the expectations that Sejong could get didn't happen.

Yeah, it is like Ramses but even more limited.

I think just giving Seowon culture and faith based on science yields, plus the Great writing slots and points would work. Placing districts adjacent to them would conflict with the civ ability.

I hope this could be a mod in steam workshop...

 

[Josephias]

Indeed, the problem with Korea is, as it was pointed out earlier and before this infi, that it is Seowon: the civ and this strong design on the UB gives little room for inventive leader abilities. Yes, it may seem even weak, but as it was pointed out, any strong LUA for Korea would make Sejong broken (althoug I think there are who won’t mind that)
Sejong will play differently from Seondepk has he is not forced to play pocket civ to maximize his bonus, having other strategies to do so, and as the trigger is the first era civ you research, there is still some puzzle and compromise potential in doing so: ¿do you beeline losing culture rewards, or explore some leaf techs while waiting for these two extra seowons being online?

 

[Cooleatack]

Seems this pack is directed at the min-maxers, which is nice for those that really enjoy it. This is a core part of the game, so it is good of them to cater to those who love getting every last drip of a yield.

I personally like min-maxing until I have too many cities when it becomes a chore, and turns take half an hour to complete. Unfortunately that point hits quickly in civ. So, I probably will avoid Sejong and Ludwig.

Theodora is my favorite of these for the synergy with the rest of the civ. Apart from the plain dress, I think the model also does look pretty good in the end.

 

[tedhebert]

What are those statues in the backround of FXS crew?

For example they zoomed into a warrior carrying a flag.

Civ VII concept art statues? Or some Civ VI stuff? Or neither?

I couldn’t make it to the end of the stream, but could there possible have been SEVEN zoom ins ???

 

[Josephias]

I couldn’t make it to the end of the stream, but could there possible have been SEVEN zoom ins ???

How many of these statues are there? (Not seeing the video right now). If there are around 16-20, ¿can we start playing civ7 civ-bingo?

 

[Xandinho]

I don't think people say it's bad because it's weak, they are saying it is uninspiring. This is an ability that gives you something you want to do anyway, kinda like Ramses. Normally, a fun civ/leader is one who forces you to play in a different direction, makes you do something you not normally do, asks you to juggle more decisions than normal. Like I sympathize why the Koreans are pissed, Firaxis has 2 chances to make something decent and they fail both times.

Like how many of you like micromanaging when to research a tech of a new era and run projects at the exact same time you finish that tech to maximize the culture gained?

I know, but since civ's design is all about science, it would be hard for them to take civ to totally different gameplay since Korea would still be a science industry. I'd make Sejong a cultural/religious leader, it would bring Korean civ closer to cultural victory, but still the science bonuses would be screaming - Seowon already gives you a lot of science without you having to plan too much. I think this is more of a general civ design issue than anything.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

What are those statues in the backround of FXS crew?

For example they zoomed into a warrior carrying a flag.

Civ VII concept art statues? Or some Civ VI stuff? Or neither?

I missed it. Was it a statue of a red herring?

 

[canadamufc]

I think just giving Seowon culture and faith based on science yields, plus the Great writing slots and points would work. Placing districts adjacent to them would conflict with the civ ability.

That’s true, but I think Korea needs another layer of thinking and depth and I think the idea that one could sacrifice their science for some culture instead would make the player think about how they value their yields and if the trade is worth it.

 

[Haig]

There was a roman(?) helmet,
an european knight with flag,
eastern looking monk
some weird character with a cow
chariot rider
etc.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I missed it. Was it a statue of a red herring?

Ha ha ha! It would be funny if they got a little red fish for their backdrop and kept zooming in on it

 

[ombak]

With Carl wearing his Civ 6 dev team gear, I was imagining someone would pop in with a Civ 7 dev team hoodie at the end. I need to think much more subtle evidently.