Learning philosophy.

[Mouthwash]

Is it worth it to study philosophy in college? I'm not talking about the potential employment or financial opportunities, I'm asking as if my goal was simply to become an expert in it. Is it possible to become as fluent in philosophy as someone who had (say) a Ph.D simply by reading the stuff and debating actual philosophers? I never needed instruction to learn the things I'm knowledgeable about in history or politics. I just read a lot and discussed them with other people who knew more than me. I want to be a philosopher when I'm older, but I don't want to waste time with an actual class if it isn't absolutely necessary (and how much truth is there to the things they say about continental philosophy?).

I am very interested in philosophy, and when I was younger I always speculated about the nature of time, consciousness, perception, etc. That's what got me into philosophy in the first place, and a lot of the stuff I came up with had a lot in common with what ancient philosophers were thinking. How much does that help me?

Also, how many professional or influential philosophers today never through formal education?

 

[Birdjaguar]

College is the place to study what interests you without regard for its actual application.

 

[snarzberry]

I was very similar to you coming out of high school. I've always been fascinated and engrossed in thinking about abstract concepts and have a deep desire to understand. I'll sit for hours on end deep in thought about the nature of beauty, questioning the idea of moral relativism or imagining some outlandish physics experiment. I actually did take the path of studying philosophy at university, but dropped out half way through when I realised that I could actually learn all this stuff without racking up a large student debt. I was poor and I went and got a job and then enrolled in a finance/economics degree. That led to happiness for me. I still think and read about philosophy all the time, but the material things in life provide a degree of extra happiness.

My advice to you is to think about why you like philosophy. If the answer is complex systems and trying to understand them and extract truth from them, then you can exercise that part of your nature in a field where you can actually earn a good living. Economics, engineering, science. It's not like you have to abandon your love of reading about plato or considering and learning about longstanding philosophical challenges.

 

[Mouthwash]

College is the place to study what interests you without regard for its actual application.

Ah, and if I don't happen to think that studying Popper's epistemology in a formal environment is worth forking out 20,000 dollars, especially given that I'll be contemplating it over the smell of frying burgers for the rest of my young life?

I was very similar to you coming out of high school. I've always been fascinated and engrossed in thinking about abstract concepts and have a deep desire to understand. I'll sit for hours on end deep in thought about the nature of beauty, questioning the idea of moral relativism or imagining some outlandish physics experiment. I actually did take the path of studying philosophy at university, but dropped out half way through when I realised that I could actually learn all this stuff without racking up a large student debt. I was poor and I went and got a job and then enrolled in a finance/economics degree. That led to happiness for me. I still think and read about philosophy all the time, but the material things in life provide a degree of extra happiness.

My advice to you is to think about why you like philosophy. If the answer is complex systems and trying to understand them and extract truth from them, then you can exercise that part of your nature in a field where you can actually earn a good living. Economics, engineering, science. It's not like you have to abandon your love of reading about plato or considering and learning about longstanding philosophical challenges.

No, I definitely want to know real "philosophy," but I just want to know if taking a course is worth it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

If you are talking about a major in Philosophy, you might be right, but if you take a course of two the costs are much lower. One of my son's class mates at Swarthmore majored in Philosophy; he now has a Phd in one of its variants and is off to a career in academia.

 

[Mouthwash]

If you are talking about a major in Philosophy, you might be right, but if you take a course of two the costs are much lower. One of my son's class mates at Swarthmore majored in Philosophy; he now has a Phd in one of its variants and is off to a career in academia.

I actually would like to major in Economics or Poli/Sci, which happen to be useful for making a living and are things that I can probably exceed at. I would only take philosophy as a major if I thought that learning it in college gave me a systematic, in-depth examination of the subject which I couldn't find anywhere else.

When I phrase it like that, I wonder why I'm asking in the first place.

What does "academia" mean? Writing books? Contemplating the epistemology of art and getting paid for it by some department of philosophy?

 

[_random_]

Working as a professor and doing research. Probably some book-writing too.

 

[Traitorfish]

No university course is going to give you a "systematic, in-depth examination" of "philosophy", because that's not really how it works. There are different fields and different schools, and the focus varies from department to department. Philosophy professors aren't just interested in imparting a great mass of trivia, any more than history or physics professors are, they're trying to introduce you to a philosophical way of thinking, which they do by exposing you to thinkers, ideas and texts, and forcing you to consider and discuss them. Philosophy is ultimately something you practice, not just something you know, so formal training is about more than just about sitting in a lecture theatre and having factoids poured in your ears.


To be quite frank, the declaration "I want to be a philosopher" reeks of vanity. You don't express an interest in any particular area of thought or in the work of any particular thinker or tradition, or show much of an awareness of the current debates in philosophy. You just seem to covet the status of "philosopher" and the intellectual authority that attends it. Before you do anything else, you should consider what it is that interests you about philosophy, and what areas of philosophy you'd actually like to work in, because if you can't do that then the whole exercise is bankrupt from the start.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Worth it on a personal level? Possibly. Worth it on a financial level? No. You're not going to find work with a degree in philosophy. My undergrad degree was in history, and while I'm happy making my student loan payments because of the ways my life changed while in uni, if I'd known I'd be graduating into a recession with a somewhat useless degree, I would've become a plumber.

 

[downtown]

If you're willing to work part time jobs while you're in college, network, or get a graduate degree, it doesn't matter what liberal arts degree you major in at all. It's not like a Political Science degree gives you particular practical skills that a Philosophy major doesn't (I have a Political Science degree).

Study what you like. If you're willing to do the extra hustle, you'll be able to find rewarding work.

 

[Tahuti]

Worth it on a personal level? Possibly. Worth it on a financial level? No. You're not going to find work with a degree in philosophy. My undergrad degree was in history, and while I'm happy making my student loan payments because of the ways my life changed while in uni, if I'd known I'd be graduating into a recession with a somewhat useless degree, I would've become a plumber.

If judged from a "job-perspective", most university majors are useless, including many STEM degrees. University education is better judged from both a personal and societal level, than an economic level. Frankly, education shouldn't be about finding jobs at all.

 

[warpus]

As with every discipline, the first year of philosophy is a lot of introductory stuff that might not interest you at all. I took Philosophy 101 as an elective one year, and found it just.. not my cup of tea. There was a lot of memorization of who said what when and which philosopher thinks what, rather than any in-depth analysis of any philosophical topics that interested me.

I guess what I'm saying is that to get to the meat, you'll have to sit through a lot of introductory crap. Are you willing to do that?

Frankly, education shouldn't be about finding jobs at all.

Shouldn't be, but in the U.S. students routinely end up with $50k or more in debt, after finishing school. With that in mind, post-secondary education has to be viewed as an investment.. one that better starts paying off relatively quickly after you graduate so you can start paying off that debt.

 

[Mouthwash]

No university course is going to give you a "systematic, in-depth examination" of "philosophy", because that's not really how it works. There are different fields and different schools, and the focus varies from department to department. Philosophy professors aren't just interested in imparting a great mass of trivia, any more than history or physics professors are, they're trying to introduce you to a philosophical way of thinking, which they do by exposing you to thinkers, ideas and texts, and forcing you to consider and discuss them. Philosophy is ultimately something you practice, not just something you know, so formal training is about more than just about sitting in a lecture theatre and having factoids poured in your ears.


To be quite frank, the declaration "I want to be a philosopher" reeks of vanity. You don't express an interest in any particular area of thought or in the work of any particular thinker or tradition, or show much of an awareness of the current debates in philosophy. You just seem to covet the status of "philosopher" and the intellectual authority that attends it. Before you do anything else, you should consider what it is that interests you about philosophy, and what areas of philosophy you'd actually like to work in, because if you can't do that then the whole exercise is bankrupt from the start.

Well... I think you're taking what I said too literally. I understand what philosophical thinking is and how to be rational without making "common sense" assumptions. And I do have a particular interest in the subject- epistemology. I will obsess over the question of what knowledge is and how I can understand what sort of beliefs or assumptions can be justified. I also actively investigate topical philosophical issues (Newcomb's Problem, Teletransporter, etc). I'm not just saying the word "philosopher" for the intellectual credo, I know what being one would entail.

As with every discipline, the first year of philosophy is a lot of introductory stuff that might not interest you at all. I took Philosophy 101 as an elective one year, and found it just.. not my cup of tea. There was a lot of memorization of who said what when and which philosopher thinks what, rather than any in-depth analysis of any philosophical topics that interested me.

I guess what I'm saying is that to get to the meat, you'll have to sit through a lot of introductory crap. Are you willing to do that?

I stumbled upon this a while back and it kind of turned me off learning philosophy in college... maybe you could take a look at some of the critique, if you're interested. But no, I don't enjoy the idea of reciting old monologues about Socrate's great revelation that accusing someone of being an atheist and therefore in cahoots with demons to be self-refuting. I want to skip straight to the "logic" stuff, applied to genuine issues.

 

[lovett]

Perhaps a good philosophy course might teach you some intellectual humility. That would be valuable, in the light of your signature.

 

[Atticus]

I think it's better to have something else as a major. All the best philosophy students I knew had very strong interest in other areas too. Many of the major students I knew begun to do philosophy instead of thinking. It's more easy to explain by an example: You talk with a physics student on what is knowledge. He says that it is a true justifiable belief, you say that what counts as justification is not so clear, he redefines his point... Then you go and talk about it with philosophy major, and he says: "Wittgenstein this and that, but Searle blah blah, and then the positivist school said that...".

Now that is of course an over characterization, but I think a philosopher should have an nonphilosophical interest to be any good. There are such philosophy majors too, but having it as a major doesn't makes it easy to just engage in the "doing philosophy".

 

[Smellincoffee]

If judged from a "job-perspective", most university majors are useless, including many STEM degrees. University education is better judged from both a personal and societal level, than an economic level. Frankly, education shouldn't be about finding jobs at all.

Considering the cost of higher education in the United States, sinking so much of your time and money into obtaining a degree borders on foolishness if you don't expect to use it to find some productive means of employment. I consider my degree, and its cost, "worth it" on a personal basis -- the ideas I was exposed to, the patterns of thinking and writing -- but I wish now that I had more practical, marketable skills.

 

[sophie]

I actually would like to major in Economics or Poli/Sci, which happen to be useful for making a living and are things that I can probably exceed at. I would only take philosophy as a major if I thought that learning it in college gave me a systematic, in-depth examination of the subject which I couldn't find anywhere else.

When I phrase it like that, I wonder why I'm asking in the first place.

What does "academia" mean? Writing books? Contemplating the epistemology of art and getting paid for it by some department of philosophy?

What _Random_ said. If you're really interested in advancing your knowledge of Philosophy then majoring in it is your best bet. There's much more to academia than just sitting around thinking about junk; there's a reason the vast majority of serious publications in disciplines like philosophy, history, and literature come out of academic circles rather than freelance/amateurs. In addition to doing extensive research professors serious about doing work in their fields are spending A LOT of time attending conferences, reading the work of their peers and interacting with other experts in their field. This makes them privy to the latest in the metadiscussion of their fields and helps prevent them from falling in the pitfalls. The reason you should be interested in, and the true value of studying philosophy/history/et al at University is that you're going to find yourself among the best and most knowledgeable figures in their respective disciplines who can help direct your research and help you learn more about how to read/write/interact with the discipline at a higher level. Reading in a vacuum is only going to get you so far.

I'm approaching the end of my undergraduate degree in history and the value I got out of my 4 years was not really from the classes themselves - at the undergrad level you're going to find that the information conveyed in lectures are necessarily going to be simplified and easily attained elsewhere, but it's the office hours; the ability to interact with academia and learn about the historiography and metadiscussion for a period. You learn about the current players, latest books/research, and how to navigate the troubling sea of finding academic books/papers that aren't a complete waste of your time. Without that research in liberal arts can be quite the crapshoot and you can easily find yourself sent down a wrong path.

 

[Antilogic]

Is it worth it to study philosophy in college?

No.

5chars

 

[Traitorfish]

Trust the engineer.

 

[lovett]

You talk with a physics student on what is knowledge. He says that it is a true justifiable belief, you say that what counts as justification is not so clear, he redefines his point... Then you go and talk about it with philosophy major, and he says: "Wittgenstein this and that, but Searle blah blah, and then the positivist school said that...".

What an oddly unfortunate set of names to pick out of the hat...