GinandTonic
Saphire w/ Schweps + Lime
- Joined
- May 25, 2005
- Messages
- 8,898
Didnt work as everyone said it was nutty.
Let's expel Poland from the EU!
- Thread starter Enkidu Warrior
- Start date
Didnt work as everyone said it was nutty.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Poland has to go!
They're just so annoying! The UK was never this obstructive.
Yes, it was. Expel them too. And France, for their farmers are the biggest pain in the ass one can imagine. And Italy, because their economy sucks. Denmarks/Sweden, because they don't want Euro. And Czechs, because they can't even form a stable government.
Hell, why don't we dissolve the entire club right away and start fighting with each other again? It used to be fun! Europe is overpopulated anyway...
Their crackpot government is history. They're gonna have early elections this October and it's the liberals who will win this time.
Let's see what the new government will do, because frankly, almost every EU state had a period when it sabotaged the whole club - France during De Gaulle's rule, Britain under Thatcher etc.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Good job, Poland.
Good job? Just see the opinions in this thread alone. They've never been more hated in Europe. I guess the new government will have a tough job returning things to normal, because Kaczyński brothers have done a lot of damage.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Sure, the world would be better
You know, you should set an example - disappear and you'll do us all a favour.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
...is clearly not welcomed in the EU.
Jesus Christ, you Yanks can't miss an opportunity to peck at us, can you?
There are many opinions and none is ostracized (except those overtly fascist) in the EU. The problem with the current polish government is that it obviously came to conclusion, that Poland should be the leader of the whole bloc and the rest of us should submit to all their ridiculous demands (they crossed the line when they said they should have the same number of votes as Germany, because they'd have a lot bigger population if it wasn't for the WW2). And when the rest of Europe tactfully declined, they started acting like touched spoiled brats.
Kaczynski and his minions can go to hell, I'll rejoice when they're gone.
silver 2039
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Messages
- 16,208
Poland is annoying, I've had to suffer through too many Polish natianalistic threads in Civ 4 and World history about how great, noble, and glorious Poland is.
Expel them dammit. And let Russia and Germany take them again.
Expel them dammit. And let Russia and Germany take them again.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Shut up, it's none of your business, thank heavens.
I agree Poles are often extremelly annoying with all their nationalistic ramblings, but that's common among nations who suffer from the illusion of national greatness. All big nations except those recently pacified (Germany and Japan) do the same.
They'll grow up, I hope.
Moderator Action: No one here gets to tell anyone to shut up on any particular topic. Warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
I agree Poles are often extremelly annoying with all their nationalistic ramblings, but that's common among nations who suffer from the illusion of national greatness. All big nations except those recently pacified (Germany and Japan) do the same.
They'll grow up, I hope.
Moderator Action: No one here gets to tell anyone to shut up on any particular topic. Warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
bathsheba666
Fast 'n Bulbous
Sounds like the British strategy is working.
Blair, and predecessors, drove the cause of enlargement, specifically so the organisation would be more unwieldy with the resulting derailment of the ever-closer and federalist tendencies.
Britain wanted allies for this slow down, and didn't particularly care who.
Blair, and predecessors, drove the cause of enlargement, specifically so the organisation would be more unwieldy with the resulting derailment of the ever-closer and federalist tendencies.
Britain wanted allies for this slow down, and didn't particularly care who.
silver 2039
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Messages
- 16,208
Yeh if we're lucky the entire EU will fall apart.
aaglo
Furioso!
Those poles really are that conservative...?
I think that kicking them out of EU would be too costly task to EU - let's just give them a big round fine for their VETOiness - and let's tell them that "EU is not the same as Poland".
I think that kicking them out of EU would be too costly task to EU - let's just give them a big round fine for their VETOiness - and let's tell them that "EU is not the same as Poland".
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Brits are very wrong if they think that the new members will help them stop the integration process. The new members are usually very pro-free market and very liberal in the economic sense. They'll push for further liberalization, because it benefits their economies. On the other hand, they're also continental nations, they don't have the dubious luxury of being on a soon-to-be-submerged island. Their destiny lies with the rest of Europe and they know it, more or less.
Mirc
Not mIRC!!!
Kick them out from the EU? No way. Try to convince them to cooperate more? Sure...
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Princeps
More bombs than God
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2004
- Messages
- 5,265
Sure, the world would be better
I don't want to give my country's soverignity to Brussels and neoliberal demagogues like SarkozZY. And another level of government is the last thing I'd like to see.
Yes, well, in the society you'd prefer, I would dissappear for my dissent alone.
I hate Kaczynskis, but what they are doing outside Poland is nothing compared to what they are doing inside of it.
Now for the details.
You say Poland attacks Russia. Au contraire. Russia was using lately oil and gas pipelines to exert pressure on nations such as Georgia, Ukraine and Belarus. It's closed pipeline to Belarus for some time, cutting Poland from oil as well. No earlier warning. Milions lost.
Poles, not Russians, bought a rafinery in Lithuania - "accidentally" just after it a fire destroyed it, and - what a coincidence - Russians closed the pipeline to it "for maintenance" - only to say quite frankly later on that since Poles bought it, they are not interested in fixing the pipeline. Please compare it to closing "for maintenance" pipelines and railways to Estonia as well.
Russia, to punish Poland for support towards independance of Ukraine, has decided to build a pipeline through Baltic Sea, to by-pass both. It was planned through polish economical zone of it - they forgot to ask for permission.
While Gorbaczew and Yeltzin admitted Katyn massacre was commited by Moscow, now Putin tries to back out of it. Russia promessed help in the investigation, but it has closed its own, and - despite promesses - denied documents concerning this matter.
Also after polish involvement in Ukraine, Russia introduced boycott of polish foodstuff, mostly meat. Also according to EU - without any basis for it.
AND IT WAS ONLY AFTER POLAND VETOED AN ECONOMICAL DEAL THAT WAS IMPORTANT FOR WESTERN EUROPE THAT IT BECAME INTERESTED IN THIS MATTER.
Not that it would do much, of course. It wants Poland to resign of veto for a mere promess of support in the future
Russia changed its national holiday to a day commemorating anti-polish uprising, as well. I wouldn't mind, really, if it wasn't accompanied by a serie of moves directed against Poland - and other eastern european nations that try to break free from it.
It's not Poland that has problems with Russia.
It's Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia. Even Armenia is not fully content with them.
The one who created this thread asks like a guy who, when hears "help, help, he wants to kill me" from his neighbour, next day goes to police to inform them that his neighbour is shouting at nights and he can't sleep.
Germany. Now PiS is anti-german, that's true. But Germans are giving it lots of reasons to complain. The baltic pipeline. Denying return of polish works of art robbed during ww2, while at the same time demanding return of artworks that were present in modern-day Poland when the war was finished, and were thus given to Poland by the Potchdam treaty. The problem of Erika Steinbach and the likes of her is bloated, but it exists. For those that don't know: after the end of ww2, Poland losts its eastern half, while got the eastern edges of pre-ww2 Germany. Poles were banned from the pre-ww2 eastern half of Poland, while Germans were banned from what became Poland as well (it wasn't polish decision, but of the Allies). In Poland, obviously, there was no possibility of creating organisations of Poles banned from USSR.
But analogical organisations flourished in western Germany, demanding revision of borders, return of Germans etc. It was only in 1990 that Germany finally accepted post-ww2 borders. Erika Steinbach, the current leader of the expelled organisation in Germany, voted against it. The organisation was, and still is, influential in german politics. Also, new organisation appeared, including Prussian Trust, which demands return of former german property.
Kaczynskis demand guarantees of that Poland will not be bothered with such stuff. I don't think it's really needed, it's a populistic demand, but I don't know why couldn't Poland be given it just to rest this case rest in peace.
On the other hand, there was the voting issue. When Poland entered EU, it didn't receive warm welcome. The economical conditions weren't generous at all, but we were told that at least we're getting quite some votes in european parliament. Now it was changed, reducing polish strenght drasticly, while making Germany much stronger. I don't see anything wrong with not being pleased with that. Kaczynskis actually didn't want Poland to have relatively more (or more precisely "less less") votes, but not to let a couple of the biggest states to have all the power in the EU.
Our FM, miss Fotyga, is an idiot. But Poland is not responsible for conflict with Russia, and not clearly for the conflict with Germany.
Kaczynskis are horrible, and in Poland, they are doing unimaginable stuff, but in relations with others... Sure, their politics are clumsy. They are unable to convince others to their point of view. But they are not wrong.
That You want to kick out Poland just for not agreeing with (most of) EU is very strange and un-democratic. there are other, smaller, states that are often not content with the attitude of France, Germany etc, but they are afraid to protest. because if someone wants to do something that public opinion in a couple of the biggest EU nations finds wrong, he's being attacked furiously, as Poland was in some cases.
France and Germany are not afraid at all to lead separate and egoistic politics in the EU. But heaven forbid if someone else has his own opinion. Such country 'misses an opportunity to shut up", as nicely said ex-president of France.
Now for the details.
You say Poland attacks Russia. Au contraire. Russia was using lately oil and gas pipelines to exert pressure on nations such as Georgia, Ukraine and Belarus. It's closed pipeline to Belarus for some time, cutting Poland from oil as well. No earlier warning. Milions lost.
Poles, not Russians, bought a rafinery in Lithuania - "accidentally" just after it a fire destroyed it, and - what a coincidence - Russians closed the pipeline to it "for maintenance" - only to say quite frankly later on that since Poles bought it, they are not interested in fixing the pipeline. Please compare it to closing "for maintenance" pipelines and railways to Estonia as well.
Russia, to punish Poland for support towards independance of Ukraine, has decided to build a pipeline through Baltic Sea, to by-pass both. It was planned through polish economical zone of it - they forgot to ask for permission.
While Gorbaczew and Yeltzin admitted Katyn massacre was commited by Moscow, now Putin tries to back out of it. Russia promessed help in the investigation, but it has closed its own, and - despite promesses - denied documents concerning this matter.
Also after polish involvement in Ukraine, Russia introduced boycott of polish foodstuff, mostly meat. Also according to EU - without any basis for it.
AND IT WAS ONLY AFTER POLAND VETOED AN ECONOMICAL DEAL THAT WAS IMPORTANT FOR WESTERN EUROPE THAT IT BECAME INTERESTED IN THIS MATTER.
Not that it would do much, of course. It wants Poland to resign of veto for a mere promess of support in the future
Russia changed its national holiday to a day commemorating anti-polish uprising, as well. I wouldn't mind, really, if it wasn't accompanied by a serie of moves directed against Poland - and other eastern european nations that try to break free from it.
It's not Poland that has problems with Russia.
It's Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia. Even Armenia is not fully content with them.
The one who created this thread asks like a guy who, when hears "help, help, he wants to kill me" from his neighbour, next day goes to police to inform them that his neighbour is shouting at nights and he can't sleep.
Germany. Now PiS is anti-german, that's true. But Germans are giving it lots of reasons to complain. The baltic pipeline. Denying return of polish works of art robbed during ww2, while at the same time demanding return of artworks that were present in modern-day Poland when the war was finished, and were thus given to Poland by the Potchdam treaty. The problem of Erika Steinbach and the likes of her is bloated, but it exists. For those that don't know: after the end of ww2, Poland losts its eastern half, while got the eastern edges of pre-ww2 Germany. Poles were banned from the pre-ww2 eastern half of Poland, while Germans were banned from what became Poland as well (it wasn't polish decision, but of the Allies). In Poland, obviously, there was no possibility of creating organisations of Poles banned from USSR.
But analogical organisations flourished in western Germany, demanding revision of borders, return of Germans etc. It was only in 1990 that Germany finally accepted post-ww2 borders. Erika Steinbach, the current leader of the expelled organisation in Germany, voted against it. The organisation was, and still is, influential in german politics. Also, new organisation appeared, including Prussian Trust, which demands return of former german property.
Kaczynskis demand guarantees of that Poland will not be bothered with such stuff. I don't think it's really needed, it's a populistic demand, but I don't know why couldn't Poland be given it just to rest this case rest in peace.
On the other hand, there was the voting issue. When Poland entered EU, it didn't receive warm welcome. The economical conditions weren't generous at all, but we were told that at least we're getting quite some votes in european parliament. Now it was changed, reducing polish strenght drasticly, while making Germany much stronger. I don't see anything wrong with not being pleased with that. Kaczynskis actually didn't want Poland to have relatively more (or more precisely "less less") votes, but not to let a couple of the biggest states to have all the power in the EU.
Our FM, miss Fotyga, is an idiot. But Poland is not responsible for conflict with Russia, and not clearly for the conflict with Germany.
Kaczynskis are horrible, and in Poland, they are doing unimaginable stuff, but in relations with others... Sure, their politics are clumsy. They are unable to convince others to their point of view. But they are not wrong.
That You want to kick out Poland just for not agreeing with (most of) EU is very strange and un-democratic. there are other, smaller, states that are often not content with the attitude of France, Germany etc, but they are afraid to protest. because if someone wants to do something that public opinion in a couple of the biggest EU nations finds wrong, he's being attacked furiously, as Poland was in some cases.
France and Germany are not afraid at all to lead separate and egoistic politics in the EU. But heaven forbid if someone else has his own opinion. Such country 'misses an opportunity to shut up", as nicely said ex-president of France.
The problem, or part of it, is that single countries seem to have too much power as some *cough* countries can abuse it. EU should be able to overrule Po... single countries.
E: this sounds somewhat stupid... I don't mean that EU could rule single countries, but that these big EU-wide projects couldn't be stopped by single countries (if Poland disagrees, they can ignore the project)
E: this sounds somewhat stupid... I don't mean that EU could rule single countries, but that these big EU-wide projects couldn't be stopped by single countries (if Poland disagrees, they can ignore the project)
what's about this holiday? I am against death penalty, but why not wanting to spend our money, money of all people, including the ones who are in favour of it, to campaign against it,
is such a crime? Why should polish president or prime minister change their opinion in such matter, when it is not essential for the benefit of anyone?
You're acting like french revolutionaries at a certain point, when they gave some constitutional powers to the king to veto the new laws, but were enraged at him when he did exert his powers towards some of their ideas, and during his trial, it was one of the accusations, that he dared to use his constitutional powers.
is such a crime? Why should polish president or prime minister change their opinion in such matter, when it is not essential for the benefit of anyone?
You're acting like french revolutionaries at a certain point, when they gave some constitutional powers to the king to veto the new laws, but were enraged at him when he did exert his powers towards some of their ideas, and during his trial, it was one of the accusations, that he dared to use his constitutional powers.
Why? it would only cause tensions. The way it is if You want to gain something, You should give something in return.
Luckily, You'd need Poland to agree to limit the veto power, so...
Winner
Diverse in Unity
On the other hand, you should finally realize what your position in Europe is like. You have slightly less than a half the population of Germany, but the German economy is 8 times bigger. You're one of the largest recipient of the EU structural aid. Your agriculture is 50 years behind the rest of Europe and your infrastructure sucks.
Don't take it as an offence, but Western Europeans have a reason to feel like they feel when you make demands and offer nothing in return.
Don't take it as an offence, but Western Europeans have a reason to feel like they feel when you make demands and offer nothing in return.
