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Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by WastinTime, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Chieftain

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    Yes, I forgot about all that, but actually, I find it rather difficult to follow any of those details. Hm, so it sounds like instant farm is the best and otherwise build roads. But that's one reason to make the yellow road at Cuzco-W-NW.
     
  2. Mitchum

    Mitchum Chieftain

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    I normally don't play Diety and I never play Huge maps or Marathon speed so I wanted to play the first 50 turns of a few games to get a feel for how this game would play out.

    I let Map Finder run for several hours and played about a dozen double gold starts and I found that it takes a lot of effort (and luck) to find a keeper (I'm sure that all of you HoF players already know this). It's fairly easy to find double gold with food but to also a) get a good tech from a hut, b) get an early worker steal and c) have a ripe AI nearby for conquest is a lot harder.

    Even though neither of these starts is perfect (i.e. no PH capital, Fishing isn't an ideal free tech, Mansa is a close neighbor in one save, etc.), they both have a lot going for them. I'm anxious to see how they play out!
     
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Are you going to beat me to BC space?
     
  4. Mitchum

    Mitchum Chieftain

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    I know that you're not serious for many reasons, the least of which is my lack of time commitment to anything Civ related. :lol:

    Although, if I had more time I'm sure I could beat you!! :mischief:

    My reason for playing was just to get a feel for the flow of a Deity Marathon game on a huge map as HC (a leader I haven't played since probably 2008 in Vanilla). If I'm going to be amazed by your game, I have to know first hand how amazing it really is! I should add that I'm already amazed at the progress in your game and you're just getting started!!

    Note: things on Marathon are very slow for people who are used to playing at Normal speed. Worker improvements take eons (in turns, not years).
     
  5. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Yea, you have to double and triple team a lot of stuff.
    :mischief: or, let the AI do it. They get 100% worker speed bonus.

    I'm playing a lot rt now. I'll have a big update soon on my progress and any strategy that got me where I'm at. Possibly past Turn80.
     
  6. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Overview of where everyone is (T39)



    Color Code:


    Missing AI: Peter and Elizabeth

    So the plan is to get Hamburg, then SW-Joao, then W-Washingon, N-DeGaulle. Clean up Fred on the way back East. Then, from Cuzco: N-Justinian or NE-Willy.

    :devil: Hot Tip: Knowing the plan is to clean out the SW, road aggressively towards NE before Writing (for trade route income as well as an attack route)
    (Future Sight: I've played past Writing and although I tried to road NE, I should have done better. I guess I was hoping Willy would have settled more in my direction. This huge gap NE is going to cost me in TR income. This is the first thing I'd like to do over.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  7. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    MarbleStart Turnset T40-90

    I feel like posting every. sinlgle. turn. is a bit tedious for you and me, so I'm going a little higher level. I'll cover what happened and any interesting tactics.

    (update in progress...check back)

    Hamburg: pretty uneventful. I took 5 Q's there around T51. I only needed 3, but I would never go without at least 4.

    Random Event (first time ever!)
    My 4xp Q got a free Leadership promo! :banana: How fun. (That's double experience from now on)
    On the same turn, Berlin got a free road+cows pasture.


    :devil: Hot tip: Now that all Q's were used to secure 1st capture. As painful as it is, you need to send one Q to the post-Joao AI targets to look for horses and copper. So that means Washington and DeGaulle (it's time to steal from DeGaulle again anyway).

    BronzeWorking.
    Willy has Copper, but no BW yet.
    Vicky (far East) has it too.
    One NE of Fred, and Joao's capital has one :eek:

    T58 Joao -> Slavery :eek:
    Yikes. Now I need extra Q's for Joao in case he whips archers. :mad:
    Adapt Plans:
    Joao's 2nd, Oporto, will be easier and require fewer Q's. Also the Washington Q (see above) can join in at Oporto, so it's next.

    Meanwhile, denying DG's horse...


    :devil: Hot Tip:
    See the pasture? You can spot those horses even before the pasture. When DG learned AnimalHusbandry, that grass tile gets a suspicious hammer (same with copper or iron). Since he didn't take Slavery (BW), it's horses. And, of course, now that it's pastured, it's obviously horses.

    :devil: Hot Tip:
    My Q arrived earlier than shown in the screenshot. I could have DoW'd and scared the worker away before ever getting the pasture. But since he doesn't have slavery (can't whip a chariot), I wait because:
    a) I get to capture the worker for my purposes
    b) loss of worker prevents DG from re-pasturing soon
    c) I get pillage gold for the pasture
    d) Instead of leaving a pasture that only needs a couple turns to complete. It has to be re-done from start (only 6 turns for the AI--12 turns for me)


    T64: Oporto captured
    (screenshot showing Lisbon plan)



    This shows some typical war planning for me. I don't want to pay for Q's that trickle out, waiting for a stack large enough for Lisbon, so I plan carefully to chop 60h in Cuzco. The chop must come after a Q is built so you get a 2nd and 3rd consecutively. Those all wait in Cuzco (so they don't pay supply costs) until the time to hit Lisbon. This can easily be foreseen as T70 DoW, T71 capture.
    So all 3 Q's move out T65 for Oporto.

    The Hamburg Q also joins the attack. Note, the green path swings down south to scare off any workers chopping Lisbon's east side.

    The DeGaulle Q (after pillaging the Horses) has a tricky move. He appears to be 2 turns late for the Lisbon action. Or is he? He can move 1S, then a CF will teleport him SE--allowing him to catch up to the army, as long as he also uses the road being built now.
    The Oporto survivors heal and join for an overwhelming attack at Lisbon.

    The good thing about Joao getting slavery is that he built granaries and both survived! Yes, I have 2 Terraces with borders popping in only 15 turns.

    Washington

    Not much to tell. I pillaged his horse before taking Oporto. See the extra hammer on the tile at NewYork-N-NE?
    He didn't have slavery, so I could just pile up my Q's and attack when ready. No need to worry about threatening him.
    NewYork and Chicago fall. I have like 7-8 Q's and lose one per city.
    Wash is left alive in a far SW city he recently settled. Fine, I'll ignore it. I'll put him to good use later :mischief:

    DeGaulle
    From Chicago it was North to Paris.
    Once again, I let him finish the Horses.
    I watch as Paris trys to build a settler while Orleans is doing an archer at 1 hammer/turn :lol:
    Since I can monitor this, I wait a couple extra turns with my 8 units (a couple of well timed reinforcements) for the worker to also complete the Cow Pasture. I can work that without knowing AnimalH. I cannot, however, work the horses even tho the pasture remains.

    T89: Paris Captured, now Size 3
    1st ring has: cows, horses, farmedFP, Clam, and gold! I need to mine the gold. DG doesn't even have mining.


    Meanwhile:
    Sule (T79) and Darius (T84?) got Writing and OB with me. they have all the gold in the NE. These are both popular alphabet techers in the past for me.
    T87: I get Writing and OB with all


    Planning ahead:
    With Alpha possibly coming sooner than normal, I need Cuzco to pop borders for marble. I try to work in a Terrace among the needed Q's primarily for the culture. I've decided to chop another pre-math 60h and whip it too. Normally there'd be no point whipping until the granary is have full (is that a :devil: Hot Tip? everyone knows that.)

    Everyone else in the SW is trying to get a nicely timed Terrace using chop and/or whip.

    War Plans
    Allow DG to pasture Pig and take DG's last city. I have to because in 15 turns it will pop borders now that it is the capital. Otherwise, I'd probably leave it with him and worker farm him. I have major cashflow problems, so Washington will probably get this city for a while.
    Another reason I need that city is because of the ~100 capture :gold:

    Same with Berlin. I'll have to do that city, but keep it for myself.

    then it's off to Willy...or his direction anyway. I planned well to have the roads for the army, but like I said earlier, I didn't get the roads in time for OB/trade route income :sad:

    Speaking of money. I'm losing -50 gpt :eek:! and I only have enough for 2 turns.
    That's a problem since I have about 17 turns to go on Math--if I could stay at 100% (which is not going to happen)

    I only got about 200 or so failgold from StoneHenge when Roos built it early :mad: T84. :devil: Hot Tip: cut IND Roosevelt...and while you're at it, add some more like DeGaulle and Peter. The other AI can be hard to manage when I'm DoWing Fred 3 times and Joao twice. That's why I kept the Washington war going--so there'd only be 1 DoW there. Fortunately, no one else is annoyed yet. I was able to OB them. Keeping them Cautious means they might trade gems, fur, silver, or Ivory, etc.

    Research
    I'd have to call Fishing a required tech. It's needed as much as Mining or wheel. Especially with no cottages, so I did that before pottery. So getting that in a Hut makes the game a 'keeper'.
    I got to Writing (87) 7 turns faster than I did in my Score game (but that was on Huge with higher tech costs)
    I was not able to maintain 100% research on the way to Writing.
    Math is going to be a struggle. With Henge gone, the only way to make money this early in the game is Quechua whip/chop overflow. I'll revisit that strategy next turnset.

    G.General born. Probably a super-medic. Another advantage of Quechua. They start with Combat I. So you can make a 2-movement medic with the extra promo.

    :devil: Hot Tip: Just like before, when I sent Q's ahead to harass Wash and DG, now is the time to explore thru Just and Willy and de-fog all of the AI. You can spot possible late targets, and allow viewing of the city production (looking for wonder builders). One Q can completely deny horse/metal if he gets there in time. It's too late for most, but worth a shot. Don't forget to defog a complete coastal trade route path.

    Mansa :trouble: did pottery, Writing, masonry, and now sailing. He's going to be a threat for the GreatLighthouse.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  8. Mitchum

    Mitchum Chieftain

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    Nice progress, WT! Things seem to be going well. Is Mansa teching Alphabet for you yet? How is your own teching going?
     
  9. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Chieftain

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    How many workers during the above turnset and are they primarily roading?

    How and where did you generate the 200h in SH while still building needed Qs?
     
  10. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    I just captured #11 worker for my 7 cities.
    I've done ~4 farms, 5-6 chops and then roads. The major resources were all improved for me after I did the first Rice.

    Oporto and Hamburg each chopped 60h (90h with IND) into Henge. That's 180
    Cuzco got a few turns...40h. So 220 and change.

    All my cities were size 1 or not in a good place to whip-overflow anything into Henge this early.
     
  11. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Chieftain

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    And how many bpt at -50gpt?
     
  12. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    About 60 raw
     
  13. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    You should use the Worker at Hamburg for luring and work the PHF for more Quechuas from size 2 onwards.
     
  14. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Did some testing: your worker-lure doesn't seem to work if it's only archer city defenders. They won't move. I think you know that and probably wrote that already, but that's the situation I'm in rt now with DG (Orleans) and Fred (Berlin/Munich). Same goes if you're talking about earlier in the game when I was trying to capture Hamburg. It only had 2 archers.
    Maybe later when the AI has a small SoD.

    I can't afford to work a crappy tile like PHF. We may be talking about different cities here, but in Hamburg (now that I own it.) I've been working the farmedWine. I have a Terrace and I can whip that city, so I'd rather work the riverGrassFarm or Floodplains.

    Very soon, once I get to Alphabet, I'll explain my new Economy and how it has affected the game pre-Alphabet. Then it will be easier to justify some of my early game decisions.
     
  15. Imploding

    Imploding Chieftain

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    Well that is one thing I'm exited to hear more about! Wonder if its something that me as a humble immortal player could apply to my gamplay.. or if I have to go insane diety blackbelt to even comprehend how its "new economy" could work. :crazyeye:

    I'm still scratching my head on how that Strike/quetcha thing worked. :lol:

    Either way.. this is starting to be a really cool thread! I usually start my day with reading up on the latest activities! :goodjob:
     
  16. Imploding

    Imploding Chieftain

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    Alphabet... hm.. spy steal economy?
     
  17. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Stealing only gets you so far. This is gonna be something capable of generating alot of BPT.
     
  18. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Fueling Research in the Early Game.
    I've been saying pre-alpha, but it's really pre-Currency. That really opens up the cashflow. But at least once you have Alpha, you can still get new tech even at 0% research. The only way to research this early is to have money. You can't run Scientists for example. And you can't steal.

    Steady conquest gold is nice way to handle this problem, but in my case, I'm virtually out of targets that I can reach and some are getting horses/metal.

    In the MarbleStart Turnset, at T89, I have a serious cashflow problem.

    -50 gpt. (And in just a few turns -60 gpt, then more)
    I only have enough cash (125) for 2 turns of research. (remember: keep ~20 gold for events)

    I have 17 turns to go on Math. And I can't let my research die there. I'll need to get Poly + Priesthood before I can rest.
    That's another 9 turns. 26 turns at -50gpt is ~1300 gold to get to a happy place on research.
    Note: as my research rate goes up, so does my gpt costs. So it comes out to ~1300 no matter how things fluctuate.

    :scan: Show me the money...
    Bank: 125:gold:

    5-6 turns will probably be at 0% and generate a measly 75:gold: (total now 200)

    Capture gold: I only have Orleans and Berlin/Munich for the next 18 turns or so to get me to Math.
    Then, I should be able to come down hard on Justin, my chosen NE target (more on that in the turnset report) which help me with Poly+Priest
    Roughly: 200:gold: in the near term and another 300:gold: from Just.
    Total gold now: 700

    I think I can find 50 pillage gold (Fred's cottage is hopefully a hamlet) it will be hard to find 50:gold:

    I still need 550 more. (from whip overflow)
    :devil: Ready to get some blood on your hands?
    If I needed a little gold, I could do a Quechua whip here and there. But I need a lot, and many cities have great tiles to work, so I'd rather not whip them. The exceptions being Oporto and Hamburg. They each have a 5:food: tile and 3:food: tiles.

    I'm on T94 a the moment--pausing the game and trying to make huge plans for this extra gold. Both cities have essentially 1 whip anger that won't wear off in my Math-Priesthood timeframe. Hamburg actually has 2, but one will wear off in 12 turns. Hamburg will also not get "yearn for motherland" anger even tho Fred is alive since it has no Fred culture. (Another reason not to play against Creative AI.)

    The point is: Both cities can whip 3 times and still be happy at size 1. That means they can grow and be whipped 4 times before becoming totally useless.


    :devil: Hot Tip: To erase whip anger, both cities need to be gifted away and re-captured.
    As long as you have at least 1 culture (thanks again Terrace :goodjob:)
    a) the city will not lose population
    b) the city will not lose buildings (except culture buildings like monument or library...again Terrace doesn't count as a culture building :cool:.)
    c) the city will instantly be out of revolt :thumbsup:
    You do lose any hammers you have in partial builds and you lose all the stored food. So near the end, we can stop working the food tiles.
    I will use Washington for this gift/recapture.

    update: Warnings: Some drawbacks erasing anger in captured city when AI is still alive and has culture.
    - if you have less than 75% culture then you will suffer turns of revolt, but the number is reduced based on your culture %.
    Spoiler :

    Code:
            if (iTeamCulturePercent < GC.getDefineINT("OCCUPATION_CULTURE_PERCENT_THRESHOLD"))
            {
                pNewCity->changeOccupationTimer(((GC.getDefineINT("BASE_OCCUPATION_TURNS") + ((pNewCity->getPopulation() * GC.getDefineINT("OCCUPATION_TURNS_POPULATION_PERCENT")) / 100)) * (100 - iTeamCulturePercent)) / 100);
            }
    

    - Population lost? Yes but No if you have the most city culture of anyone alive. So usually 51% or it could be less if there were more than 2 owners.

    - Are buildings destroyed? Yes randomly, but again, No...if you're the highest culture.

    What makes this even more advanced and requires planning is to time it so both cities are done at the same time. If I had DeGaulle around, this wouldn't matter. I could do them separately, but I don't want to get too many "-1 declared war on friend"

    :devil: tip: put close to 29:hammers: in the quechua, then whip it for 30:hammers: overflow and 60+:gold:

    Each of the 8 whips should produce over 60:gold: on average if you add normal city hammers.
    In the turnset report, I'll show another trick that boosts that to ~70:gold per whip.
    8 x 70 = 560:gold: :goodjob: we made it! 1310 total gold.

    It can't hurt to have some extra cash around. I might throw in a chop or two. When you add those to a whipped unit, you get the full 60...or 90:gold: post-Math.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  19. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Chieftain

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    I'm sure I'm braindead and this is obvious, but how does the 30h OF become 60g?

    Edit: Oh yeah, marathon. A whip is what, 90h?
     
  20. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    you answered your own question. Now you know why I sometimes have trouble switching my brain to normal speed for the SGotM.

    This is another marathon advantage. You can do it on normal speed, but if you put 14/15 into a warrior and whip it, you get around 15-20 gold.

    But of course, if your research needs 1200 gold on marathon, you only need 400 gold on normal speed, so it's not too far out of balance. For Normal speed, I'd recommend combining the whip with a chop, for example, so you get the full 30:gold: from the forest. No need to build a 2nd warrior. Or do what I'm planning in the upcoming MarbleStart Turnset.
     

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