Let's Read the Bible Once

Satan was created as God's CEO. If one takes satan as a literal being, he still is the most "powerful" created entity. There is nothing in the Bible that seems to contradict that point. Satan chose to be in opposition to God and God has allowed that.

Trust is not obedience. Trust is just acknowledging God. One can acknowledge there is a God and be sarcastic, bitter, and even evil to a length. Even satan has to acknowledge God, but he does not have to do anything else. He can only oppose God to the point God allows

MAking Satan God's practical joke on the rest of its creation.

Evil because of free will, but Satan can only be evil, therefore no free will. :crazyeye: Not even the original sin thing can hide that one. But it was a smart move, putting that story at the beginning.
 
MAking Satan God's practical joke on the rest of its creation.

Evil because of free will, but Satan can only be evil, therefore no free will. :crazyeye: Not even the original sin thing can hide that one. But it was a smart move, putting that story at the beginning.

Are we saying that we have no choice but to rebel? Does satan have no choice but to do evil?

No one is forced to do evil and no one is forced to do good. Evil and good just happen to be the result of how one chooses to act. Not every choice is black or white either. There are a whole range of choices that one can make in varying degrees between the two.

Satan is not bound to only do evil things. Satan is capable of doing a host of things that are a benefit to all involved, thus they would be considered good things to do.
 
Are we saying that we have no choice but to rebel? Does satan have no choice but to do evil?

No one is forced to do evil and no one is forced to do good. Evil and good just happen to be the result of how one chooses to act. Not every choice is black or white either. There are a whole range of choices that one can make in varying degrees between the two.

Satan is not bound to only do evil things. Satan is capable of doing a host of things that are a benefit to all involved, thus they would be considered good things to do.

Can Satan and God make up and be good pals forever again the end?

If I am are permitted here to discuss Genesis, which you were talking about: let's look at it and the crucial part it plays in christian (but, interestingly, not jewish?) religion. Specifically, the very first portion. You are aware of the difficulties posed to christian theology when some people ventured that native americans might not be descendants of Adam and Eve and were therefore exempt from the original sin? No way, the original sin was too important a tooldogma, was the conclusion of that fight. I guess it was to the credit of late medieval/early modern (pre-reformation/protestantism) catholic theology that they discussed it at all.

There is free will but mankind is tainted anyway and must atone for that taint in any case. There is free will but Satan must oppose God anyway because if he doesn't there is no handy excuse for evil. This religion could use some overhauling, if you ask me. Like, dumping the whole genesis thing once and for all. Everyone already knows that there was no God going around making animals from mud and pulling ribs, might as well drop the original sin thing which is, quite frankly, an offense to the whole of mankind. There's one good reason it hasn't been dropped, and it's an organizational one, not a theological one.
 
Are we saying that we have no choice but to rebel? Does satan have no choice but to do evil?

No one is forced to do evil and no one is forced to do good. Evil and good just happen to be the result of how one chooses to act. Not every choice is black or white either. There are a whole range of choices that one can make in varying degrees between the two.

Satan is not bound to only do evil things. Satan is capable of doing a host of things that are a benefit to all involved, thus they would be considered good things to do.

I've always considered evil to be tied to an amount of intelligence.

Hurricanes aren't evil.
Humankind wasn't capable of it until biting that apple that gave them knowledge.

Not sure what choices Satan has.
 
I'm not knowledgeable enough to contribute to the conversation. :crazyeye:

If I remember my Greeks right, the ancient Greeks would have been horrified at Sodom's behavior. Trying to murder guests just wasn't done. One of them might be Zeus in disguise!

Whatever brimstone is and fire would have been fully justified for such repeat offenders.


Time for the next part :o
 
That is the sticking point though. Genesis existed before Christianity was "invented". That it was used as a reason for anything was not a religious injunction at all. It was the logical conclusion of the inability to live by unchangeable laws. What would humans be if they could actually brake all the laws of the universe? There is no need to excuse evil. The act that Adam did gave us the knowledge between good and evil. God and satan had such knowledge, and what happened between them was irrelevant to humans. Of course satan has the ability to accept God as God and become God's pal again. That satan was allowed to interfere with humanity while being a rebel is open to interpretation. That God put the choice for Adam to rebel just like satan is open for interpretation. I have no answer and there is no logical reason that justifies God allowing either events to happen. If there was no free will, then it would not be logical for God to give Adam the choice that sent humans down the wrong path. To say that humans have a choice and that gives evil an excuse does not follow, IMO. The knowledge of evil was the result of Adam's choice. We will never know what would have happened if Adam never introduced that knowledge into the world.

The law of Moses was not even a religion. It was expanded and Judaism evolved from it. Even Christianity was not intended to be a religion, but it expanded and evolved into one. Islam evolved out of a few people's interpretations of the same writings. So it really does not matter what people have believed or taught over the years since the Bible was written. Every person has their own freedom to read and see for themselves what was written.

Moses's law was a choice to avoid what we consider things that come naturally to us, not because we are forced to do them, but we have no compulsion to avoid doing them. It showed us that we cannot eradicate the knowledge of evil, but we are enslaved to such evil. Jesus was the answer to the law, in that humans no longer had to keep the law. If humans had no knowledge of evil, there would be no consequences to braking moral laws. Not that we would get away with evil, but there would be no ability to harm ourselves or others. It is the harm that is considered evil. We could draw the conclusion God allowed the knowledge of evil because what he created would eventially come to an end any way, and he would just keep creating and recreating universes over and over again. That is a possibility that would be hard to argue against.

Physics has opened our minds to a host of laws that we have discovered that govern the universe. We know that if these laws were broken or changed in any way life as we know it would not exist as we know it. We can only guess as to what would happen if such laws never existed. We can only guess what life would be like if we had no knowledge of evil. If we can eradicate the knowledge of evil, then we can eventually forget how we got such knowledge.
 
Day 5 - Genesis Chapter 21 to 25

Looks like Abraham and his sons Ishmael and Isaac:


Spoiler :
Chapter 21 - God fixed Sarah's inability to have children as promised and she bore Abraham a son while he was 100 years old. :)

Abraham named him Isaac. He had his foreskin circumcised when he was 8 days old to keep The Covenant with God.

When Isaac was able to be weaned off his mother's milk and eat regular food, Abraham threw him a huge feast!

One day Sarah saw Ishmael (14 years old?) mocking (2 brothers are rivals? try 2 wives!). She demanded to Abraham that he cast out both Hagar and Ishmael so that Isaac would be his lone heir.

Abraham was troubled by this. (no kidding)

God reassured Abraham that this would be ok. So he gave Hagar and son bread and water and sent them away.


Hagar and Ishmael wandered the wilderness of Beersheba. (The fountain was Beerlahairoi, so no idea where this is. Probably south towards Egypt again, her old home)

When she ran out of water, she had him stay under a bush and wandered a bowshot away.

She hoped that she wouldn't have to watch him die, then went over to hold him and cry.

God heard her cry, and an angel of the lord told told her not to worry, that from him would come a great nation. (God only talks directly to prophets now maybe? Lot of angels lately :mischief:)

A well full of water appeared, and they drank from it. As the years went by and Ishmael grew, God was with him and he became an archer in the wilderness of Paran. His mother brought a wife for him from Egypt.


Now one day Abimelech, the king who Abraham nearly got killed, arrived with his troop leader Phichol. He tells Abraham that he wants him to swear to God that he will deal with him and his truthfully and that any kindness shown will be reciprocated in turn.

Abraham agrees. The issue of a disputed well comes up that Abraham thinks Abimelech's people took unfairly. He gives Abimelech some sheep, oxen, and 7 ewes and gets the well back.

They name the place Beersheba and Abimelech departed back to the land of the Philistines. (I guess that's where Gerar is?)

Abraham sojourned many days in the Philistines (uh oh, you know what that usually means :lol:)


Chapter 22 - And it came to pass that God tempted Abraham.

God tells him to take his only son Isaac to Moriah and offer him as a burnt sacrifice on one of the mountains specified. :eek:

So Abraham takes his son Isaac, and 2 young men, and the wood and journeys there on a donkey.

He tells the 2 men to stay with the donkey while he goes up a mountain to worship God with his son.

Isaac asks his dad where the animal offering is and Abraham tells him that God will provide the offering. :sad:

Abraham ties Isaac up and is about to slay him with a dagger when he is interrupted by an Angel of the Lord telling him to stop for it is evident that he fears God. (phew!)

A ram appears, and Abraham sacrifices it instead. He names the place Jehova-Jireh.

The Angel of the Lord tells him that he will be rewarded with blessings.

His descendants will be even more numerous and through them will all the nations of Earth be blessed. :dance:

Abraham and Isaac go back to Beersheba.

Then there's a list of 8 descendants from Abraham's brother Nahor and his wife/niece Milcah. (Still back in Ur I assume)


Chapter 23 - Sarah dies at 128 years old in Kirjatharba/Hebron in the land of Canaan.

Abraham asks the locals to give him a place to bury his wife.

They confer, and eventually Abraham offers money to Ephron of Zophar to buy the cave named Machpelah in Ephron's field to bury his wife in.

Ephron offers to just give it to him, but Abraham insists on paying fair value, so he ends up paying 400 shekels of silver and buries his wife there.


Chapter 24 - Now when Abraham was old and stricken with age (has to be older than 129 now), he summoned his eldest servant.

Abraham made him swear that he'd find his son Isaac a wife from his homeland and kindred instead of a local wife from Canaan. (Guess someone is going back to Ur)

His servant asked if he should take Isaac along in case the woman refused to travel to Canaan, but Abraham said if that happened then the oath was released.

Abraham also said that an angel would go before him.

So the servant took 10 camels and set off towards Mesopotamia. He arrived at the city Nahor. (I guess Abraham's brother was prosperous enough to get his own city?)

The servant prayed to God for kindness, that the first young woman to come outside the city to draw water would offer him and his camels some would be the wife for Isaac.

And a young woman named Rebekah did exactly that.

The servant wondered if his prayer was indeed answered and his journey over, so he gave her a gift of golden jewelry and asked who her family was.

She replied that she was the granddaughter of Milcah and Nahor.

The servant was overjoyed that she was kindred to Abraham, and asked to stay the night.

Rebekah's brother Laban invites him in after Rebekah tells her mother's house what happened.

The servant tells them his story, and that an angel would prepare the way.

The father and the brother say that the thing is from God, and they can say neither good or bad, and to take Rebekah to be Isaac's wife.

Gifts are given to Rebekah and her family.

Her family asks that she stay for 10 days, but the servant wants to go immediately, and Rebekah agrees.

They meet Isaac as he is coming back from the well Lahairoi in the south. (Hagar's well I think)

Rebekah veiled herself before the servant explained all that had happened to Isaac. Then Isaac took Rebekah to his mother's tent and married her. ;)


Chapter 25 - Abraham took another wife Katurah (Dang, feisty old man!)

She bore him 6 more children: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.

Isaac got everything that Abraham owned, and the sons of the concubines were given gifts and sent east.

Abraham died when he was 175 years old and was buried next to his wife Sarah in the cave Machpelah. :cry:


Ishmael has 12 sons who became princes.

They were Nebajoth, Kedar, Abbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Haddar, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah.

Ishmael lived to be 137 years old, and died in the presence of his family.


Now Rebekah Isaac's wife was barren just like his mother Sarah had been. So Rebekah prayed to God and she was able to conceive.

Only, it was twins! So she asked God about them.

He said there are 2 nations in her womb. One will be stronger than the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.

And when the first baby was born, it was named Esau. The other was born holding onto his heel and was named Jacob.

Esau grew into a hunter and Jacob grew into an ordinary man, a tent dweller.

Isaac loved Esau and Rebekah loved Jacob.

And one day when Jacob was boiling stew, Esau appeared faint with hunger and asked for some.

Jacob said he'd agree, but only if Esau sold him his birthright first (what?)

Esau agreed and ate the food. (not sure what just happened)

 
Satan was created as God's CEO. If one takes satan as a literal being, he still is the most "powerful" created entity. There is nothing in the Bible that seems to contradict that point. Satan chose to be in opposition to God and God has allowed that.

That's the common Christian belief, passed down - it often seems - directly from Millton.

If you look and the original language and context - like a historian would - Satan comes off a lot more like a member of God's court. The role seems to shift from the OT to the NT. As if different people writing about different things had a very different POV and didn't use the same words in the same ways, or were even influenced by the ideas of their times. (Zoroastrianism, for example.). Not at all surprising for a historical human document, and that also resolves some seeming contradictions in a relatively straight-forward manner - no need to violate Occam's Razor with some complicated pseudo-theological twisting.
 
Some parts of the Old Testament even hint of an old dualism (presumably inspired by Zoroastrianism) that has been covered up by the time they were written down (some time after the exile in Babylon).

Not to ape C.S. Lewis' trilemma here, but as he's popular with Evangelicals, I think I'm safe. If we're going to talk in absolutes, we do have an obvious third choice other than 'God is lying' or 'The Bible is correct' - 'The Bible (or that part at least) is wrong'. Obviously, creationists will always plump for the second one.
 
And one day when Jacob was boiling stew, Esau appeared faint with hunger and asked for some.

Jacob said he'd agree, but only if Esau sold him his birthright first (what?)

Esau agreed and ate the food. (not sure what just happened)

Birthright is his inheritance. As the first-born, Esau was to get all of Isaac's wealth and land and waht Jacob got was at the will of his older brother. Esau forfeited that right in exchange for a bowl of stew. Now, Jacob becomes the one who will gain all the wealth and land.
 
Finally in chapter 22 we have Abraham trusting God. Beforehand he didn't trust God regarding his promise to be the father of many nations and went and did it his way and it cause strife in his family. Now when God came up with a very strange request, it was test of his faith. I like his response to Isaac that he says that God will provide a sacrifice for them. Also since Isaac now is a grown man takes faith from him also when his father put him on the altar.

This is a marvellous picture of what Christ did for us, since Abraham offered his only son, God did the same. God provided substitute for Isaac and in Christ he is our substitute on the cross.

MAking Satan God's practical joke on the rest of its creation.

Evil because of free will, but Satan can only be evil, therefore no free will. :crazyeye: Not even the original sin thing can hide that one. But it was a smart move, putting that story at the beginning.

Satan made his choice and he is set for life with what he choose. Whereas we are yet to make the choice ourselves and thus once we eventually do or do not and the decision becomes final when we die, we have the ability to choose between the two, but because we are sinners from the beginning we a biased towards sin.
 
Birthright is his inheritance. As the first-born, Esau was to get all of Isaac's wealth and land and waht Jacob got was at the will of his older brother. Esau forfeited that right in exchange for a bowl of stew. Now, Jacob becomes the one who will gain all the wealth and land.

That must have been some stew! :yumyum:

Clearly Esau is crazy to give up such a thing for a bowl of food. :crazyeye:
 
Finally in chapter 22 we have Abraham trusting God. Beforehand he didn't trust God regarding his promise to be the father of many nations and went and did it his way and it cause strife in his family. Now when God came up with a very strange request, it was test of his faith. I like his response to Isaac that he says that God will provide a sacrifice for them. Also since Isaac now is a grown man takes faith from him also when his father put him on the altar.

This is a marvellous picture of what Christ did for us, since Abraham offered his only son, God did the same. God provided substitute for Isaac and in Christ he is our substitute on the cross.



Satan made his choice and he is set for life with what he choose. Whereas we are yet to make the choice ourselves and thus once we eventually do or do not and the decision becomes final when we die, we have the ability to choose between the two, but because we are sinners from the beginning we a biased towards sin.

Very nice :goodjob:
 
This is a marvellous picture of what Christ did for us, since Abraham offered his only son, God did the same. God provided substitute for Isaac and in Christ he is our substitute on the cross.
Actually, God, the Bible and you are incorrect on this. Didn't he just kick another son out of his house?

And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.

10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.


Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
 
Disinheriting someone tends to not make them your child any more legally?
 
Twist, twist, twist. Abraham is God, Isaac is Jesus, my plain reading of two consecutive chapters is influenced by Satan.
 
I'm not the one lawyering away the inconsistency, though from a legal perspective, reading it your way is fair, I see.
 
I probably would have stated it another way. Abraham answered, "God would provide himself."


The line you quoted does not say only biological son, and it could also say the only son you loved depending on how fast one was reading and comprehending what was read or the translation being used.

A good lawer would also bring up two unrelated things and join them together to create inconsistancy with the testimony.
 
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