Libya: Seriously, where is this going?

[Winner]

Do we want these places to be like us or not?

If that's to be achieved by us becoming more like them, then no, thank you.

Either Turkey and Central Asia is inside the EU orbit - politically, economically, socially - or it's outside it. Plenty useful as an insider, not as an outsider.

I prefer to keep Turkey in EU's orbit, not to let it crash into the surface (to stick with your metaphor). There are plenty of ways to maintain friendly and constructive relations with Turkey and other neighbouring countries, without taking them in as members.

 

[Verbose]

If that's to be achieved by us becoming more like them, then no, thank you.

That's not the gambit, and you know it. You don't really think Turkey strong enough to pull the EU in that direction, do you?

It's by FAR better to have Turkey in pissing out, than out pissing in. It provides all kinds on potentially interesting leverage in Central Asia and the Mid East, where if the EU somehow abstains from trying to make its influence felt, is going to be filled by Russia, China, Iran etc.

 

[innonimatu]

That's not the gambit, and you know it. You don't really think Turkey strong enough to pull the EU in that direction, do you?

It's by FAR better to have Turkey in pissing out, than out pissing in. It provides all kinds on potentially interesting leverage in Central Asia and the Mid East, where if the EU somehow abstains from trying to make its influence felt, is going to be filled by Russia, China, Iran etc.

If Turkey, with its 80 million inhabitants and growing, ever gets it, it'll be pissing in, over franco-german control of the EU. The other recent new entrants to the EU were all small, and, let's be frank, powerless within the institution. Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia even helpfully dismantled themselves into smaller stateless. Turkey can't be dismantled. That is why it's not in, and not likely to be.

Oh, and about Libya, I'm getting rather tired of hearing about the imminent victory of the rebels. One would expect that all the journalists constantly writing that might put their time to some better use, like actually finding out who the rebels are presently. But I guess that it's easier to just repeat the same thing day in and day out. It almost looks like the present NATO strategy is to keep up the civil war there and wait for Qaddafi to die... of old age.
Anyway, I'm sure that the capital will eventually be starved into submission, followed by a countrywide collapse into generalized civil war. Someone is following the Afghan script...

 

[pob]

Isn't Gaddafi still in control of the country's mass irrigation system? If the rebels try and starve the capital, he'll just turn the water off. (I'm surprised that such an evil guy hasn't already thought of it )

 

[r16]

milking success , now that people who don't like me at all have described me as a wannabe con-artist . Speak softly , speak unintellegibly and you will never fail ; coincidences happen . Someday you will have enough credibility to claim there is a Nostradamus four-liner about you . ( No, actually there is not , but it falls on your opposition to prove/disprove it )

and this is related to the tragedy in Libya by the way of ? You must see this Arabian Spring is a masterpiece of hokus-pokus ( as illusionists here in Turkey use the term in their trade ) . And it takes either an idiot or a con-guy to see the thing early .

west likes to have options on its way to glory . Ahmedinejad isolated Iran PR-wise and religious authorities got wind of his underreported dealings with pro-Zionist West and of course Ahmedinejad had people "probed" in the jails - let's use euphemisms to avoid too harsh a statement - to drive the youth away from the revolution . He now says fission weapons are a waste .You betcha . Doesn't turn back the time ; nor makes the Iranian lolling of the eye-opener example of the nuclear Pakistan go away . Centrifuges working still are , are they not ?

on the other hand those enemies of the Western Way of Life , the supporters and solicitors of the El Kaide , namely the Gulf oil states are reaping the benefits of their truer than Iran friendship of the West . Their heads were offered around yet they are still here sowing democracy where it is most needed . Iraq was broken by the Bushes , Eygpt will get an Islamic Brotherhood goverment when the elections finally happen and American bloodied (even kinda trained ) Salafists will show their prowess in Syria . The big three , the belt around the Peninsula are soon to be no more .

meanwhile in Libya , yeah in the tiny thread relevance , things are getting faster. Only because Syria needs the Western overmatching in weapons and image of the miniskirted girls which democracy is supposed to bring to the streets of the oppressed masses of the Orient . There are a few reasons why the West has to babysit the Arabic reconquista . One or two months ago the situation of Damascus was not ripe for the plucking and Kaddafi surprised the world with his resiliency . Told ya , coincidences happen . There has been a discussion of how long he would have survived in this very thread . Had Syria been ready at the time , not more than a week . He was more of an annoyance than a threat despite his unmatched funding of Africa . The use of the axuliary verb does not indicate any change in position , this is a straight pseudo-historic discourse part .

the chief determinant of the speed of the Arabian Awakening is the rate of humiliation of the Turkish Armed Forces . Yes , this is the most stupidiest thing you read today . Sig it if you feel like it .

take the tiny map above [previous page actually] . It apparently originates from Netherlands as far as Turkish online sources say , those that commented on the Le Figaro article which is supposed to have printed it . The neo-Ottomanism , the glory of the resurgent Turkey is all there , but why no Algeria , where people were supposed to be proud to have Turkish ancestry ? Maybe because it is in the French Africa ? And why no Afganistan , where our troops are proudly reported to have no need to carry guns on patrol ? Maybe because England thinks it will remain there post October ? Anyhow the oil country needs a buffer zone with the Yellow hordes of China .( Hope this is not something banned ) . Which similarly explains the belt around the Caspian , and the rest of the Kazakhs can serve as a buffer with the Russians who would probably be sorta angry with losing the Caucaus . Which has historically been the source of slaves , the men as ferocious fighters and the ladies as ... Well , they can look seriously good . And naturally no Iran , as there needs to be a center of Shia to keep the oil empire friendly with the interests of Wall Street . But why Greece ? Really , why are our TV channels are claiming there are Greek MPs who press Papandreau to like us more , to act like our PM ?

Is it because there was this timid declaration that nobody buys islands on our invasion path ? Frankly the early Gulf Capital's spree of buying things in Turkey after the 911 was hampered , somewhat , by some Russian girl/girls ? If one can believe the tall tales . This megayatch picked 44 stunning pieces from a coastal resort and came back hours later dumping one or two . They are supposed to be for talkin' and which law says one can not talk to those having a period ? The people handling the logistics could surely have 5 or so as spares , right ? It doesn't become the oil rich to be penny pinching . The newspapers were all full of it and naturally it wasn't closet Jews that were actually blamed for it . ( Yes , all the sentences are relevant within the paragraph . Though it would have been so in any case )

being more Western they , too , push the map though . This is indeed the map , or rather one of the maps , for Turkey is averaging one killed security personnel per day . And there is no contradiction in what ı say , the French want us to accept the inevitable and enjoy the joyride . Much like the good old US of A . This is why the coup plotters are dragging the reputation of the armed forces down with them . Every loss is a great loss , especially to those in the family , but it is for this map or its equivalents that a fallen private's funeral in Istanbul is attented by the president of the republic , while the captain who died next to him ends up in a casket placed on a chair in the remote village he hailed from and no stellar presence can be seen in the prayers . Because you know it is the fault of the secular officer caste to throw the poor conscripts to fire , because they want to topple the goverment , to derail the democratization of the country . By large numbers of casualties that will result . The killed officers are mentioned in the news only as ranks so that they can be another statistic for the glory of the seperatists .

how stupidier can ı be ? How can Libya or any other place be some sort of a bait , if all 'em ze enemies want a piece of us ? It is all monkey's luck . There have been similar things in the past and our to be conquerors have an issue with self-confidence when it comes to the real deal . And the West does not want a full blown thing as it would be blatantly obvious that the democratised Islam , the TAMED Islam would be a product of their own , hence unacceptable in the eyes of the brainless .

though do not believe in any single thing ı say . When the Young American finds the thread mentioned below , he will see ı don't know anything about colloquial English . And naturally it is just the beginning of the things ı don't know .

monkey's luck it is . There were far better people in the past and even luckier . They weren't single at the age of 40 , for starters .

only squating on their successes that one can dare checking online for the test and see there is no discussion of the failure in a famous spot . Probably because the posters can not blame Barack Hussein Obama for the result and they discuss it in private forums . One then seeks alternative sites , those famous as the undrying fountains of merryment for the aviation professionals and sees the intel types are all over the place . One asks about the cause , some other responds in the hollow world realms the Americans are 1500 years ahead . No clue , so the dictum that military tech goes back 44.5 years for every complete rotation of the planet around the sun is reminded . Now it becomes platform of the cause and the Young American reads them all . He probably even posted there , joking about the quality of the service on the 12 minutes across Continental US airliner . And he will be dividing 1500 with 40 something and finding 1978 . Now if only ı could remember where ı read about that MiG-78 . See , ı am really unworthy . The tech can't be that old , as explaining why then the US has existed for the past forty years is a load of garbage that would tax even the undoubted r16 idiocy .

whenever in doubt , the world history section of CFC has a proven explanation that fits all . Zheng He did it .

 

[Winner]

That's not the gambit, and you know it. You don't really think Turkey strong enough to pull the EU in that direction, do you?

Turkey is big and strong enough to totally disrupt whatever balance there is in the EU between big and small countries and between the big countries themselves. Turkey is fiercely nationalist, increasingly more assertive, anti-European (recent polls show that majority of Turks now don't want to join the EU), largely backwards (don't let Istanbul and the Aegean coast fool you), and increasingly Asia-oriented.

By taking Turkey in, we'd only ruin any and all chances of a closer political union, because the Turks would never accept that (it would be like Britain, just 10 times worse), spend a lot of money trying to modernize the Turkish countryside, and totally p*** off voters in most of Western Europe (because the public opinion is overwhelmingly against Turkey's membership - in fact it's one of the main reasons why many people are anti-EU, they believe EU means Turkey on their doorstep).

It's by FAR better to have Turkey in pissing out, than out pissing in. It provides all kinds on potentially interesting leverage in Central Asia and the Mid East, where if the EU somehow abstains from trying to make its influence felt, is going to be filled by Russia, China, Iran etc.

Sorry, but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. What leverage? How does it compare with all the negatives I've just mentioned? This isn't some computer game where you take in countries to your alliance to score points. With your kind of logic, why don't we let Argentina to join, I am sure it would give us a lot of "leverage" in South America. Or South Africa - we'd get a lot of "influence" in Africa. Or Vietnam, because hell, why not?

The last time I checked this was European Union, not Eurasian Union, Eurafrican Union, or Euramerican Union.

 

[Verbose]

Winner, sure, let Turkey in as it currently is, and it's a mess. That isn't the proposition though.

The only real danger here is that the EU is a much weaker project than assumed, not attractive enough to be able to generate significant change in prospective members. If so, it's doomed anyway.

Otherwise we assume it is able to do that. In which case a Turkey in compliance with specified EU standards for democracy and human rights is an asset.

And it is an asset because, provided it works, all these dinky Central Asian republics will be more likely to look to Ankara to work out what they want to be like. If Ankara is firmly in the EU orbit, that's the direction they will be likely to want to head. Turkey is potentially the vehicle for the EU political and social ideals into the region. No EU Turkey, and they might as well look to Moscow...

And of course I have to argument against your specific notions about geography and Europeanness. Except that they're just arbitrary. Their only really stable aspect is that they deny universality. Which otoh tends to be the central to the principles on which the EU assumes to foot it's political and social ideals, meaning geography has no bearing on them.

 

[Winner]

The only real danger here is that the EU is a much weaker project than assumed, not attractive enough to be able to generate significant change in prospective members. If so, it's doomed anyway.

Otherwise we assume it is able to do that. In which case a Turkey in compliance with specified EU standards for democracy and human rights is an asset.

EU has only been able to stimulate and sustain positive change in European countries. Please accept that as a fact. The reason why countries like mine were so eager to accept pretty much everything the EU had requested was the notion that we were "returning to Europe" - "návrat do Evropy" as it was called. Whatever idiots like Klaus claim, Czechs (and Poles, and Estonians, and Slovenians, etc.) consider themselves as Europeans and they've always seen the EU membership as a proof of that. A symbol that the long separation from the European mainstream that had been forced on them by outside powers was over, gone, never to return.

In short, the EU was so successful in helping to reform Central Europe because the Central Europeans themselves were willing, even eager to reform. That sort of sentiment is largely or entirely missing in countries that lie outside the European cultural sphere.

The EU has now reached almost its final territorial extent. There aren't many countries left that share this ethos, this will to be a part of the great European project. There is the Balkans, sure - Croatia will join soon, followed perhaps by Serbia, Montenegro, and in the long run Macedonia, Bosnia and Albania. All these countries and their people see EU membership as their great aspiration. Who else is there? Well, Eastern Europe and the Caucasus, and the leftovers in Western Europe. The latter can join whenever they finally decide that it is what they want. Eastern Europeans have to settle the long-standing dispute between pro-Western and pro-Russian/Asian tendencies. In the Caucasus, Georgia made it clear it sees its future in Europe, rather than in Asia or Russia. Armenia is complicated, Azerbaijan is even more complicated. Israel is an outside possibility.

And that's it. Turkey has never felt the same about Europe. It applied for membership during the Cold War not because of any great love for Europe, but because it wanted to associate more closely with the West in order to increase its security. That motivation is now gone. EU membership is now strongly supported there only by a minority of pro-Western elites, while the rest simply doesn't feel European and if they want to join, it's purely for the economic benefits and free travel opportunities. In this Turkey is not different from Morocco, Tunisia or other countries along the Mediterranean, the only difference is that Turkey is for some reason treated differently, probably due to the Cold War inertia.

The EU cannot remake countries, to think otherwise would be even more arrogant than the American belief they could bring liberal democracy to Baghdad in their army trucks and helicopters. We cannot reshape Turkey into a Western, European nation by offering economic and political incentives. It is not in our power, so why don't we finally face that fact? Why don't you?

And it is an asset because, provided it works, all these dinky Central Asian republics will be more likely to look to Ankara to work out what they want to be like. If Ankara is firmly in the EU orbit, that's the direction they will be likely to want to head. Turkey is potentially the vehicle for the EU political and social ideals into the region. No EU Turkey, and they might as well look to Moscow...

So, you think the EU should take Turkey in to... get itself involved in the Central Asian mess? Wait, was that supposed to convince me it was a good idea?

And of course I have to argument against your specific notions about geography and Europeanness. Except that they're just arbitrary. Their only really stable aspect is that they deny universality. Which otoh tends to be the central to the principles on which the EU assumes to foot it's political and social ideals, meaning geography has no bearing on them.

It's not geography, it's culture and mentality, and you cannot handwave these away. EU is not and has never been a universalist project. Its purpose remains to be to unite Europe, not the whole world.

 

[RedRalph]

The Caucasian countries will never get into the EU.

 

[Tahuti]

Never is too big a word. But it would be complicated, and it'll take at least half a century. Also, Armenia and Azerbaijan must resolve the Nagarno Karabakh conflict and get rid of its corrupt leaders. Georgia might be improving, but I for one do not trust Sakaashvili wholeheartedly.

 

[innonimatu]

Never is too big a word. But it would be complicated, and it'll take at least half a century. Also, Armenia and Azerbaijan must resolve the Nagarno Karabakh conflict and get rid of its corrupt leaders. Georgia might be improving, but I for one do not trust Sakaashvili wholeheartedly.

You better not, he likes chewing red neck adornments.

 

[r16]

and it is only because he woved to kick some serious Russian backbottom in July 2008 , after having the guarantees of American assistance in his surprise assault or he would eat his tie on TV .

 

[Winner]

The Caucasian countries will never get into the EU.

I think Georgia will join, eventually (it will take a long, long time), and Armenia might follow (what else is there for them? Turkey? Riiiight, let's let them finish the job, huh? Iran? No, thanks. Azerbaijan? When hell freezes over. Russia? Well, if Georgia is in the EU, then it won't be of much help.) Azerbaijan is probably too Muslim and too Turkic to be even a hypothetical candidate.

Never is too big a word. But it would be complicated, and it'll take at least half a century. Also, Armenia and Azerbaijan must resolve the Nagarno Karabakh conflict and get rid of its corrupt leaders. Georgia might be improving, but I for one do not trust Sakaashvili wholeheartedly.

Georgia has made a stunning progress that was sadly interrupted by the Russian invasion. But it's getting better again. Saakashvilli will just have to recognize one day that even though the early modernization phase may have required a strong-handed leader (really, it's much simpler to do reforms in an enlightened semi-authoritarian system), he can't become a president for life. If he plans to suppress the democratic opposition forever, he'll undermining the key thing a modern country requires to prosper and develop into a true liberal democracy.

 

[Snorrius]

I think Georgia will join, eventually (it will take a long, long time), and Armenia might follow

Is there any significant benefits for Armenia to join EU?

 

[Winner]

Is there any significant benefits for Armenia to join EU?

For whom? The EU can surely do without any of the Caucasian states. For Armenia, not being isolated in case Georgia joins.

This is how it worked in Central Europe - countries were mortally afraid of being "left behind" (which forced Slovakia into a reform frenzy after the fall of the semi-authoritarian Meciar government).

 

[Snorrius]

For whom? The EU can surely do without any of the Caucasian states. For Armenia, not being isolated in case Georgia joins.

I do not really follow your thought. Which significant benefits Armenia will get from joining EU?

 

[Winner]

I do not really follow your thought. Which significant benefits Armenia will get from joining EU?

The usual. But we're talking about a very distant possibility, so try not to make a big deal out of it.

 

[kochman]

Which significant benefits Armenia will get from joining EU?

Protection from Russia and Turkey via alliance with EU, though NATO would do the same.

 

[r16]

it is all Mahir Kaynak's fault . A retiree from the intelligence service and a pretty decent guy to boot , he needs to be silenced and retire for good . As the imbeciles in the Turkish decision making process are much influenced by his good intentioned analysis that Turkey is indispensible to US . This ain't the 20th Century . The essence of the new millenium is the TAMED Islam and the neo-Umayyad remember how the good old Umayyad were kicked down to get trampled under hoofs leading to a thousand plus years of Turkish influence in their domain . #1 agreement indeed . This country is expected ,desired and demanded to fall . Previous experience with American foolery is not enough for the new era ; it is downright dangerous . To say seperatists will fall after a fake battle , we will become a democracy of sorts and will happily rule the Middle East / Middle Asia is a misdemenour against the country he took an oath to serve . Since the actual idea is a civil war that will make a picnic out of the breakup of Yugoslavia . And angels out of Serbs .

it is this operating under American contract that will take us there . Military couldn't raise a finger against the goverment being under American thumb , democrats were getting rections [sorry , ı forgot a single letter in the beginning but ı don't know which one] by announcing which general/admiral would be arrested next , starting a week before and the arrival of the guy in civilian clothes at the court to travel afield to jail would be on live coverage to be repeated 10 times an hour , every hour . So the unfailing process started something that seemed solid ; spinelessness in exhibits A led to an assumption of existence in exhibits B . Hence , as it appears now , state TV tried the same on the acting seperatist leader and declared him under lock . Funnily enough he didn't turn up . Yeah, not everybody is in the Turkish military . " Sabotage ! " cries the Goverment .

the more famous version of this attitude was when a right wing leader disappeared in winter in an helicopter crash and a governor declared he was on his way to hospital and not dead on a mountaintop . Do not laugh at Turkish Voodoo , after the 1999 quake the previous secular goverment raised 23000 from the dead to avoid declaration of a disaster-zone as it would have cut down tax revenue .

sure enough , no such misery can be attached to the democratic commentators , they are so above . On a closet Jew TV channel , the hostess and the pro-democracy guest were giggling incredibly as the smooth running American operation would tear Syria apart or something . Democratic guys have been implying the closet Jews in every failing of the Republic of Turkey since the day it was born and just as an example it was the Israelis who were responsible for the already mentioned earthquake when they were here in the naval base , where the closet guys had sold the operation as an attempt to ease the tectonic pressure and covered the aftermath as a calculation mistake . Clearly benefitting from the American preference for the moment , it was all glory for democracy when the chief anchor of the channel in discussion had to lick what he spat and pleaded for forgiveness for supporting military in the past . Anyhow the hostess and the guest were on TV again on Wednesday with nary a smile ; smooth running operations are so scary when they happen to you . She has a right to enjoy the good life as it lasts ; when the neo-Umayyad stick their banners into the walls of Konstantiniyye , she won' t be working anymore anyhow .

guest on the hand is a typical winner in the new Turkey that will lead a new Middle East where Kaddafis , Mübareks and Eseds will fall . OR he thinks .

democratic commentators looked neither proud nor proud by the little bombing THK carried out on the seperatist strongholds , the tiny little burp let out by the grace of majestical US . You know , we have to eat lots of things .

even our assistance to those who can't eat is forced by the circumstances . ı remember seeing BBC accounts of the drought in Kenya and don't so regarding Turkish channels . Sure enough as soon as the neo-Umayyad extension by the name of Al Shabab gets into some difficulties forcing into retreat , the whole lot of Islamic countries rush forward to fill the void lest some untoward thing happenz . PM lambasts the rich who don't help Somalis , certainly aiming those who fill megayachts with a piece for each , and not who fill for one . And the amount collected in the meeting of all those nations : not worth mentioning . Praise to Allah every Muslim will be questioned alone on the Judgement Day.

call to religious brotherhood has been much in vogue and the democracy in my country is much about glory of a particular umbrella of organizations of people that invade everywhere invadeable . Their solution to the issue of seperatism has also been the Islamic brotherhood aspect , one thing the secular army had long worked on for the past 30 years . Indeed the very existance of the umbrella is the Army attempt to have a tamed Islam under the unfailing guidance of US . And yes , they have grown out of it.

not surprisingly the most important thing they have managed to do is waste yet another opportunity . The seperatists have been ground down to zero about 4 times , beaten militarily and the area ripe for the reforms that would allow Kurds to be individuals . Would surely mean the folks in the Western parts could also be more individuals . Which doesn't fit for ideal of one congregation across the whole nation . That's exactly why the secular military is accused of treason in not solving the troubles in the East , hounded and blamed for everything only because the political opposition in Turkey is spectacular only in fail , and the praying Kurds are supposed to fall under the spell by the fact that president once called the local name of a place in its Kurdish version . Barzanists have taken advantage to rule the countryside and even towns , because you know fighting with the seperatists produce casualties and decrease the rate of conversions to the umbrella .

you remember the winner guest a couple of paragraphs above . 13 soldiers die in ambush and his ilk accuse Army for getting out on patrol . Wednesday , roadside bombs killed 8 or 12 ( we don't even know that ) and he said lack of patrolling was the culprit , the terrorists were freely roaming the country side . The standart operating procedure of the democracy in my country is to arrest a couple of officers anytime things begin to go pearshaped . 8 killed in the field , 8 arrests .

though one day there will be no more generals to arrest , and not that they are all guilty . It is the sword of democracy that hangs over the head of military and the democrats are imposing some weird civil superiority that finds its symbol in the Police . Yet it won't last forever , West does not want that , and the day will be upon us when there will be demand for proof . Democracy will fail to do it , because West will no longer keep the leash on its friends or dogs in the opposition and democracy will lose the edge . Yesterday all the democrats had long faces for this very reason ... The wheel is surely turning and they too will go into the muck .

not that the democrats are not ready . There was this show where the ex-minister , the police instructor and the ex-attorney were around the table .The police instructor played the concerned liberal , never minding he being a kingpin , and appeared aghast at his pals' agressiveness asking what would happen to Liberty . Ex-minister said they had the police , ex-attorney said they had the courts . All of these taking place as if they had not briefed and worked their notes before the show . This is what we call the Eastern cunning , living proof to the Orientalist take on life and people of the East . Ex-minister went on to suggest toppling of democracy would only mean foreign intervention . Oh sure , they found it on their own and they are not aware it has been Berlin's earnest desire to have one since 1992 . Undoubted German courage stemmed from Bush the First's unbelievable gaze at the office guy who announced we the monkeys were ready to stop stealing of Kerkük , right at the moment the greatest military force on the planet had just decimated Saddam's unfortunate army . We are idiots , we think our bayonets match Stealth .

still nothing matches the guy who will ask for the no-fly zone over my country in the UN . Seeing stupidity is a virtue that seems to atrract attention he declared we were ready to go nuculear . Now , we don't have the bomb in reality and even asked for nuken raus , ı don't know where he will get the atomic bomb . On the other hand , in the context of the space duel , the pre-emptive strike will be all anti-matter and we don't stock fission weapons becuse of their environmental effects . Oh those who scorn us for spacethingies , we just had our first nationally designed satellite in space . Those nations without their own satellites , eat your heart out .[ Appropriate smiley here.] Now we are a space race in a space race .[ Appropriate smiley here.] Yes, ı am a bonafide idiot and have no idea whom he is threatening . And with whose bomb , too .

and trust me he would have no idea on what ı was saying .

though ı am obviously a minority , 'cause there was also this guy who offered on a prodemocracy channel that Turkey alone can and can alone solve the crisis in Libya . Gee, who are they arresting this time ?

 

[Thedrin]

I had to look up Georgia on Google maps to determine that it is where I thought it was. How is it feasible for Georgia to join the EU without Turkey joining first?