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LK149 - WM, Indonesia

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by LKendter, May 21, 2013.

  1. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    Ok, I got it.

    I think I would go with the trades mentioned. If I do see something else, I will discuss before playing it.
     
  2. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    An important extra point: since the Persians still have those three units squatting on our lands, we can probably get them to declare war on us whenever we want with a boot order. So we can renew peace now to regain our gpt and still go to war against them according to our own timing--as long as you consider that to be within our standards, LK?

    We certainly want to start the Persian war soon, without giving them much longer to build infantry and form MPP's. As soon as we've razed the two Chinese cities in Korea, and Tientsin if the Mongols don't beat us to it, it'll be time. I don't think we can afford a long pause to get factories built.

    When we do go to war with Persia, we should be sure to set up three good shots with our elites against their three squatters.
     
  3. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    Getting a war with a boot order is fine. Declaring direct is a no-no with a deals going.

    The Persia infantry possibility does give us a quandary. I really don't want to keep fighting without better production. That is the big problem for Indonesia. I felt like was hanging on by a thread vs. China and I don't want that again. Factories is a big key there. Hopefully with all those new workers are getting our core at least optimized for production.
     
  4. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    The Persian war will begin on a short, fully railed front. We should be able to hold our positions and start wearing them down, at a minimum, even without much production.
     
  5. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    I think there are some kinds of deals where the AI will not declare war but move its units even though it would normally declare war. We may be locked into a deal. I will think about what I would like to do about it.

    Still, I will try by getting Electricity with Persia. The only other option is declaring war now.
     
  6. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    Getting the Persians to declare on us would be very useful for the war happiness, and I don't quite follow your argument as to why they wouldn't do it if we gave them a boot order. But from a strictly military standpoint, we shouldn't fear immediate war with Persia at all. The Chinese campaign is effectively over, in that they've got nothing left to send at us. I don't think holding off the Persians while we take the two Chinese cities in Korea, and then turning our full attention to the new war, would be difficult.

    To put that more directly, any choice that lets us start the Persian war now is better than one that makes us wait twenty turns, if you decide there's no middle ground.

    Of course, we may have to shift units around on our home island so that the Persian squatters don't actually take a city.
     
  7. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    Didn't have a lot of time to play yet so I haven't gotten very far. I am stopping for comments as this game is in trouble.....
    Preturn: I first get Egypt's gpt f renegotiate peace with Persia for electricity where we give 421 gold. Negotiate peace gives us Industrialization for Electricity from Australia. Finally we pick up 60 gpt, nationalism, and change for Electricity and Industrialization.
    Set research to Scientific Method as its a tech we don't need, so might be able to get after 50 turns.
    IBT: Alliance of Russia and Sioux vs China. Sioux is at war with China. Let Saltpeter deal expire, at 101 gpt, I want to see if there are other options.
    1415 AD: Trade Steam Power to Egypt for Saltpeter and small gpt + change. Might as well let them start railing our possibly future lands.
    ------------------------------
    Stop here to to look at the Culture situation and its grim. We basically have a worst case scenario going.
    Decide we need to do something. Punt Persia out - the remaining Chinese cities are junk and we are missing key techs. They do declare war giving us back our cash. I make peace with China and pick up Rep Parts for 330 gpt - a discount. We nearly don't have Rubber despite the large amounts of Jungle. One of our latest cities has Rubber 2 away. I rush the Temple and build a Colony. We can trade for Espionage, so I do so with Australia. I will start the Intelligence Agency. We are getting 220 gpt so may be able to steal a tech.
    Do the calculation on the Culture. Mongols are getting culture slower than Sioux, so 2x is a real danger. Make a random guess they might intersect at 160k culture (127k now). The Sioux got 1459 culture between 1415 and 1410 and will reach 160k in 23 turns. I count pixels and if the Mongols can get 4000 culture in those turns, they will have the 80k (approximately - the programs like civ assist don't work on this computer). They should be able to do this.
    I therefore think we have more than the 23 turns, but it could well be any time after that.
    There is only one way I think to win:
    1) Increase Mongol culture - we can take out Persian cities and either give the Mongols the cities to the north or simply raze them and let Mongols fill land with setters. We need to become stronger too, so we keep the southern areas.
    2) We must bring the attack to the Sioux and raze their cities. Step one is to get Transports and then we cross the ocean and lessen their city count. We need to capture/raze them to lower the culture per turn
    3) While we get to Transports, we need to generate Armies, get bigger ourselves, and have a place to launch an attack. East coast looks like it has more accessible cities, so getting to Africa wouldn't be bad if we can do it.
    I am going to go for the war with Persia and maybe give Mongols North Asia and Europe while I try to take Africa. If anyone has any other ideas on how we can hurt the Sioux before we have transports, then speak up. The single run away civ is the really the worst case game for this and I don't think we will win, but I think we should continue to try until the end.
    BTW, a super huge map really needs a higher culture limit than 100k. Since huge is 160k, this map really should have something like 180k?? You can see its too low in that even 160k is hit by 1500 AD, and 100k was hit in the 1300's.
    I am going to stop here for comments - see if there are any other ideas on how to win this or at least gain any kind of advantage for culture.
    ---------------
     
  8. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    I upped culture to 250K for future games.
    I've also given America a bonus settler to help with the Sioux. For some reason, they always seem to be a runaway.
    I've also fixed getting pikes and and a GA.
    I've also reduced min research to 40 turns that should mainly help the human player.
     
  9. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    On the current game we are screwed. Between 1275 AD and 1410 AD the Mongols gained 16,974 culture points. The Sioux gained 34,180. They are gaining at more than twice the Mongolia.
    Outside of gifting cities to Mongolia and hope they build culture I really don't know what to do. Trying to invade the Sioux will most likely be suicide. Our transport distant is too long, and we are too far from airfields to help.
    We desperately need time to get factories built, and I don't know how we will get there. The Sioux have multiple factories up based on all of the pollution. We will be grossly outnumbered...
    This game has been torture for me knowing we are playing crippled due to my screw ups with pikes and no GA. Add those both in, and we could have more to work with.
     
  10. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    The Sioux are in the Modern Age, and they have most of the gold in the universe with which to buy allies, so I agree with LK that trying to prevent their victory by fighting them now would be suicide. All we can do is to pursue our offensive against Persia while trying to help the Mongols culturally.

    The Sioux and the Mongols are both in fascism, so they'll only gain culture very slowly from conquered cities--after a majority of the population is native, of course. We can exploit this by razing Persian cities--first Hyderabad and Tyre, probably-- for the Mongols to replace, while no one will be doing the same for the Sioux. The downside, of course, is that gifting cities to the Mongols, or encouraging them to conquer more on their own with alliances, will have a badly delayed benefit. In some circumstances we might found cities in fertile, well-railed spots and immediately gift them to Mongolia, so that they would be able to gain culture after adding only two population.

    One glimmer of hope is that LK's math does show the Sioux more than doubling the Mongols' cultural output, but by very little. If those numbers hold, the Sioux won't be advancing on their goal very quickly.

    I'd like to see how this one develops, since the Sioux aren't outpacing the Mongols by enough in culture that their victory is a foregone conclusion. But OTOH, since I'll be away and the work of playing out this desperate position won't fall on me, I won't object if the rest of the team has had enough.

    The extra settler to strengthen the US is a good idea. In my limited experience of this map, it's quite normal for the Sioux to control America's core from an early date, thanks to Mounted Warriors and the resultant GA.
     
  11. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    Glad to hear the Mongols are gaining culture so quickly. By looking at the culture chart it didn't look like they were gaining that fast. It means we do have more time.

    I agree if Sioux are modern already we may at least need tanks before we can do anything.

    Our progress will be limited by our Army count. More Cavalry won't help much for taking out cities - we only need as many as there are (easy) units to kill and to fill armies. I think I will build some factories and Infantry first. I will also draft in some cases (max city size mostly) and attack weak units to get them to Regular. That will help get us real defense faster.

    Going to start playing now, but I may not get very far today.

    It is looking like I will be able to play slowly but steadily. I was thinking of keeping the game even if it takes me somewhat longer since we are down to 3 players for the moment rather than just play a few turns. I don't think it will take me past next weekend. Is this acceptable to everyone? (if things work out it may be faster)
     
  12. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    Feel free to keep it through the weekend. I'll have no time to play Fri - Sun.
     
  13. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I'll have time to play on Tuesday.
     
  14. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    I completed the turns on Sunday and will post later today to get it to you.
     
  15. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    1415 AD Continued.
    Raze Mardras with our Armies. Persia has Infantry but city was not guarded by them.
    We are vulnerable if Persia can freely go through Mongol lands. For this reason I got an Alliance with Mongols vs Persia.
    IBT: 2-3 ships bombard us. Around 4 Cavalry show up.
    1420 AD: Two armies heal. The last attacks Lahore.
    IBT: More Cavalry appear.
    1425 AD: Lahore just showed up with an Infantry in Lahore. I bombard with 7 cannon and 1 Treb but cannot damage it. However Army takes our that regular infantry and a conscript taking only 3 hp. After that, taking out the Musket brings our army down 7 hp.
    Use the last Army to take out 3 Cavalry in the hills which does a huge 13 hp to it. Last move goes back to a town to Heal next turn. I kill one more with a Cavalry and leave the remaining 3. The town has only regular Infantry, and a Conscript (and 4 units so it can't fall) to defend it if they attack.
    IBT:
    The defense strategy works as the Regular Infantry becomes a Vet, so a drafted Infantry becomes our first Veteran Infantry
    Australia and Sioux declare peace.
    A bunch more Persian ships are bombarding.
    We build our first Infantry.
    1430 AD: 2 Armies heal. The last takes out an Infantry in Delhi but has to heal after that. Red-line and kill several Cavalry but no leader yet
    IBT: A defended stack of workers is attacked. They kill one conscript Infantry. The second conscript promotes to Regular.
    1435 AD: Only one Army has health and we have several invaders, so I heal. The Army blocks a bigger stack of Infantry from stepping on our rail network. Also use some infantry to defend another Square.
    We have had terrible luck with advancements and gaining armies. We haven't had a single unit become elite yet.
    Got some cash for maps.
    1440 AD: Move some Cannon next to Delhi under an Army. The other armies still block the infantry stack from the most important squares. Next round I hope to finally take Delhi.
    IBT: Infantry take out one Infantry but premote another to Elite. The Mongols are fighting in the area two. In bad news the Mongols had declared on the Sioux, and now Russia is also fighting the Mongols.
    Egypt is going through our lands. They must be targetting China.
    1445 AD: With bombardment and using the Armies we raze Delhi. Still it nearly cost us a full health Army, we get very bad RNG on one attack - the only thing that saves us is that the Army retreats. We finally get a good break, and gain a leader which becomes a 4th Army. Use it to kill some infantry.
    IBT: Mongols are attacked this round instead of us. Aztec and Sioux ally vs Argentina. Sioux declare war.
    1450 AD: Healing round. I try to redline 2 Infantry with all our artillery but fail. Bleh! I leave them for next round as they are in the hills and 2 hp can win vs a Cav fairly easily.

    Notes:
    I haven't built a city past the blocking jungle as it would be exposed to Cavalry attack. However, we now finally have Infantry we can start expanding. Persian Cav's were finally lessening on the last 2 IBT - I think the initial rush is done.

    We have one more Army (4) now. Very few Vet to Elite (maybe just the infantry on defense) so it was a bit disappointing on the quest to gain Armies.

    We are building a mix of factories and Infantry/Cav/Artillery.

    I was doing the 'worker per turn' from the capitol, but I think we should let it grow now. Rails allows for other towns to take over building workers. Our capitol with no corruption is really to valuable to just build workers.

    Was doing some drafting but we are a bit short on Granary to do much. We also don't want too much unhappiness as we have troubles trading tech for Lux and have to pay big prices for them - and it will get bigger as we start to grow.

    I had hoped to go through the towns one last time, but I don't really have the opportunity. Do a quick check before hitting enter. I think everything should be ok, but haven't verified.

    Egypt is waltzing through our lands to the East near china with Cavalry. They have not attacked.

    We just started the Intel Agency in the first town with a factory.

     
  16. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    At some we will need cities in India. With Mongolia is off limits for now, we need to have a secure path through India to the next target. Too early to decide on that target, but I wonder if it will be Africa.

    ROSTER:
    LKendter (on deck)
    Northern Pike (skip Aug 1 to Sep 5)
    Greebley (just played)
    Elephantium (up)
     
  17. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I've got it.
     
  18. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    Ya, I think we can start building Indian area cities next turn. The initial rush is over and we now have infantry including an Elite.
     
  19. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Pre-turn: Look around. I change a few workers to taxmen in outlying towns.

    IBT:

    Persia moves like 50 units all over the place. Bombards Semarang. They Trebuchet a Mongol cav near Mataram.
    Aztecs and Sioux sign MA vs. Mongols.
    Australia and China sign MA vs. Germany. Poor guys.

    Aztecs want to trade WMs - and for us to pay 420g. Forget it!
    Egypt moves a lot of troops at China...
    Sioux complete Hoover Dam

    Turn 1 (1455 AD):

    Bombard Persians. Redline 1 Infantry, ping an eCav, then redline 2 more Infantry. After that, I ping a couple more Cavs near Banjarmasin.

    Kill 2 Infantry and a Cav, then lose a vCav vs. a redlined Inf :(
    Next Cav kills it.
    Cav kills Persian Cav
    Cav kills Cav
    Cav kills Cav and wipes out the Persian Cav stack!

    Third Cav Army kills one Infantry in New Hovd; at 10/18 I take the risk and regret it as he fails to kill the (now redlined) second :(
    Army kills 2/2 Inf
    Army kills redlined Inf and razes New Hovd!

    Bangalore:
    First Cav Army kills Infantry => 9/19
    Second Cav Army kills Infantry => 6/18

    IBT:

    Persians move a bunch of troops at Banjarmasin.

    Turn 2 (1460 AD):

    Tegal founded W of Banjarmasin.
    Army kills Persian Cav near Banjarmasin.
    eCav kills Persian Rifle
    eKnight dies on Persian Cav :(
    eCav kills it
    vCav kills Musket, promotes
    vCavs kill the remaining 3 Cavs; we capture a couple of arty pieces.

    IBT:
    Argentina demands TM and about 80 gold. We cave, of course.
    Sioux are building UN and Manhattan.

    Turn 3 (1465 AD):

    Bombard 3 Inf, 1 Rifle, and 1 Cav near Banjarmasin. They fall with no losses.
    Move troops to invade Banjarmasin, including about half a dozen arty units.
    Army kills 2 Muskets in Calcutta and razes the city!

    IBT:
    Barracks of Cimahi are destroyed in shore bombardments by Persia :(
    Sioux completes UN.

    Turn 4 (1470 AD):

    We redline and kill a Persian Cav near Banjarmasin.

    Bangalore:
    Bombard with what we have
    Army kills cInf
    Army kills 2/3 Inf
    eCav kills 2/3 Rifle and razes the city.

    Army kills redlined Infantry on a mountaintop; we park the eInf there and build rails; I'll put a Barricade up there next turn.

    IBT:

    Persians talk the Aztecs into declaring war on us!
    They bombard a few coastal positions, destroying Roads near Cimahi.
    They also lose an Infantry attacking our redlined (due to bomardment) Infantry W of Banjarmasin.
    Fur supply lost. The stingy Sioux want 50gpt now :(
    Australia and Aztecs signed MA against us! Goodbye Ivory :(
    Australia does some damage on the island where they've had a Knight stack for several thousand years - we lose a Spear, a foreign Worker, and an improvement next to the city there.
    Zulu demand TM and 95 gold. We cave like cavemen!

    Bandung riots; I scroll forward to prevent further riots.

    Turn 5 (1475 AD):

    Sword kills Australian Sword
    Disaster - Knight falls to 1/4 Aus Knight :(
    Sword finishes off the knight
    Army kills Infantry in Karachi

    With Australia now at war with us, I figured now is a good time to pause for discussion.
     
  20. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    BLEH - we can't get a break in this one.
    We badly need to increase army count, but we lost one. :(

    We don't need more wars, so my opinion is to keep pushing the main front vs. Persia. Hopefully the Aztec war stays mostly phony. Australia is a pain, but IMHO we aren't in the position to push that war.
    I hope war happy offsets all the lost luxuries.

    I'm not sure what you are looking to discuss, so let me know. If it is about fighting Australia, my opinion is to leave it mostly phony for now. We need to make progress in Asia...
     

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