LK154 - CCM - Bablyon

[Northern Pike]

Sure, I know those builds and settings made sense until the Russians were eliminated [referring back to Joe's post #178].

It may be a while yet until we revolt to monarchy. The right moment will probably be when we've added nine or ten cities to our empire by eliminating the Vikings, and we can finally do it without getting crushed by unit costs.

If anyone is thinking that unit costs during our early offensives in CCM didn't used to be such a problem, you're right. Civinator didn't increase the penalty for units over the limit until Rat 44, and in that one the desperate early tactical situation (with the AI allowed to build settlers) kept our troop levels down. Then in Rat 45 Solomon's Temple gave us an early GA, again letting us evade the issue. So this is the first time we've had the problem in its pure form, so to speak.

 

[Northern Pike]

(without the bikini team)

 

[Jersey Joe]

Sure, I know those builds and settings made sense until the Russians were eliminated [referring back to Joe's post #178].

It may be a while yet until we revolt to monarchy. The right moment will probably be when we've added nine or ten cities to our empire by eliminating the Vikings, and we can finally do it without getting crushed by unit costs.

If anyone is thinking that unit costs during our early offensives in CCM didn't used to be such a problem, you're right. Civinator didn't increase the penalty for units over the limit until Rat 44, and in that one the desperate early tactical situation (with the AI allowed to build settlers) kept our troop levels down. Then in Rat 45 Solomon's Temple gave us an early GA, again letting us evade the issue. So this is the first time we've had the problem in its pure form, so to speak.

The information about the Rat games is helpful in understanding the flow of the posts I read about those games.

I have been trying to calculate the excess unit cost in a spreadsheet. However, the values I need to use to be able to reproduce the excess unit cost are not those listed in the civilopedia. That is, for Despotism the civilopedia lists the cost per excess unit as 1gpt but to get the value shown on both the Domestic Advisor screen and the Military Advisor screen I need to use 2gpt per excess unit.
Also, to get the number of excess units under Monarchy I am using 2 free units per city/town not the 3 per city/town shown in the civilopedia (which is strange because you can have 3 MPs). For Representation I am using unit cost 4gpt; free units 4; units per city/town 3. The civilopedia numbers are 3, 2, 3 respectively. I have never played a Theocracy so I have no old games to look at and I do not feel like revolting one of my old games into Theocracy to determine the values.
Granted I only used 1 game of each Government type to figure out the values being used so I could have mistakes in the free unit determination.

If my analysis is correct, Republic might be better than Monarchy. If we revolt into a Monarchy our excess unit support cost will be 183 gpt verse the current 46 gpt. However, if we revolt into a Republic the support cost is 180gpt, 3 gpt less than Monarchy, but we do not get happy faces from troops in a city that Monarchy provides. However, we do get an extra 1 gold per tile worked. With our Current population this means we get 83gpt more than Despotism/Monarchy. At a 30% Luxury Tax, if values are truncated, that is 0 extra happy faces until size 4, then 1 till size 7, etc ...

To use up that extra 83 gpt our army size would need to increase from 97 to 183 with no increase in population. I do not know how bad war weariness is, but in my test games (not at deity level) it was not a problem.

As it stands, it looks like the only reason to revolt is to get 3+ food per tile and 3+ hammers per tile without penalty. If I get more ambitious later, I might revolt an old game into Theology to see what is really happening. I am curious to know, if as per the civilopedia description there is a tile penalty and what the real unit costs are.

 

[Northern Pike]

Some great analysis there. The only thing I can definitely confirm is that yes, the Civilopedia doesn't reflect Civinator's increasing of the excess-units penalties to two gold per unit in despotism and three gold per unit in monarchy.

The question of war weariness and a possible republic is complicated. Civinator, and Greebley, will rightly argue that we've never really given it a try. The problem is that we warmongers really, really don't like the idea of conducting a game in which we're almost always at war with the WW clock ticking in the background, even if it's something we could work around. It just feels like a needless self-inflicted complication.

Also--this point really needs its own essay --it looks as though CCM 1.8 is going to involve much bloodier wars than earlier iterations. In 1.7 and before, once we emerged from the Ancient Age, we had to endure a long period in which our basic attack was 4-4 (knight versus arquebus); but then we'd fairly quickly reach the 12-8 era of early tanks versus infantry, when we'd win without difficulty. Now that early tanks are numerically insignificant autoproduced units (quite rightly, on historical grounds), and better tanks are a long way further ahead on the tech tree, the game will involve a whole era of 9-8 attacks (armoured cars versus infantry), with much heavier casualties than we've come to expect. This doesn't seem like the situation in which to experiment with a war-weariness government.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Right now it looks like we are staying with Despotism were unit cost is 46gpt vs 186gpt in Monarchy. I am getting closer to loading up one of my practice games and revolting into a Theocracy to find out how that works.

Republic does lack barracks, so you only have 3-4 cities that can product veteran troops.

I am going to have to find the commerce increasing buildings available in a Monarchy and Republic to see if we can ever get enough gold to switch.

Edit: I did a quick and dirty swap into Theocracy. It differs a little from the civilopedia. I worked out that you get 6 free units + 3 free units per city/town. Unit cost is 2 per excess unit. Currently (based on 97 total units) Theo would cost us 85gpt for excess units vs despotism 46gpt. We would still loss 1 production when producing 3 or greater. Mitigating this is a "building" similar to slavery that increase production by 25%.

 

[Elephantium]

I've played using Theocracy before. I wouldn't recommend it for this game; the tile penalty is too high a burden. OTOH, the Monastery building was pretty cool -- it increased science as well as production, IIRC.

Edit: Got it.

 

[Northern Pike]

BTW, Tusker, is that your got-it?

 

[Jersey Joe]

Random Thoughts:

• Use the Great Leader to rush a Market in Uruk?
• Nineveh should switch to Town Center and not finish Ancient Calvary.
• Assur should build Town Center.
• In preparation for war with Vikings, should we build a colony on Ivory just in case the Ivory by Elit gets disconnected?
• Before we trade away Horses we should finish the current Ancient Calvary builds or switch to a different build.
• We could build a colony on the iron near Samarra and use it in trade.
• With horses and iron in the mix, I wonder if we could also negotiate a trade for Chivalry?
• USA, Mongol, China look like the ones that will "charge" us the least for Feudalism.
• Canada will trade us Spices for Furs + 139 gold.

 

[Northern Pike]

I see this as a buildup round for our attack on the Vikings, not a real period of peace, so I don't think our towns with barracks should build anything but military units.

Using the leader to rush a marketplace in Uruk wouldn't be bad, but I think employing him to build Royal Garrison in a town with a barracks would be more to the point.

i like your other ideas/suggestions.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:

"Before we trade away Horses we should finish the current Ancient Calvary builds or switch to a different build."

AFAIK any builds started will finish, regardless of what happens to the resource. You just will not be able to start a new one, once it has been lost. I expect that is true in ccm as well, but cannot recall.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I see this as a buildup round for our attack on the Vikings, not a real period of peace, so I don't think our towns with barracks should build anything but military units.

Using the leader to rush a marketplace in Uruk would't be bad, but I think employing him to build Royal Garrison in a town with a barracks would be more to the point.

i like your other ideas/suggestions.

Good Point about the Royal Garrison.
I was only looking for ways to increase our commerce, and get closer to revolting out of Despotism. I think with Town Centers in Nineveh and Assur we could drop the Luxury Tax to 20% giving us another 22gpt.

Nineveh grows and becomes unhappy next turn, and will have to hire a clown. If production is switched to a Town Center, this turn, and the forest is worked a town center built in 3 turns. After that, with 1 more mine and no additional corruption, Nineveh should be able to build Saber Fighters every 2 turns.

Mining the BG tile at Assur will double its growth rate by letting us work a 2 food tile instead of a forest. Assur does not have enough grassland to farm (even in Monarchy) to work all the forest tiles.
Using 2 well timed chops (of river forests), Assur can build a Town Center in 2 turns.
This lets us work 2 more river tiles for an extra 2gpt. Also, we might get a BG tile. So we traded 1 Ancient Calvary for the Town Center and room to grow.

 

[Elephantium]

Okay. There's been a LOT of discussion in the past couple of days. I've distilled it down to 12 points:

1. Don't make any more deals with Nubia.
2. Trade for Feudalism ASAP.
Lots of people will sell it to us for Furs, 36gpt, and a variable amount of gold:
Aztecs: 337 gold OR Horses + 97 gold
China: 268 gold
Canada: 268 gold
USA: 327 gold
Mongols: 327 gold
Greece: Won't deal.
Netherlands: Won't deal.
Thoughts on who? Canada - good because they're far, bad because they're already rich.
China - good because they're poor, bad because they're neighbors.
Aztecs - good because they're cheap IF we include Horses in the deal.
3. Defend Uruk before hitting 'enter'.
4. Adjust Ellipi (Mosque), Imperia (MM for growth), and Czar's Gold (Mosque) before hitting 'enter'.
5. Build Supply Centre Furs in Samarra.
6. Cathyton - irrigate Wheat ASAP.
7. Assemble the troops at Elit (ready in about 7 turns).
8. Use the Great Leader to rush the Royal Garrison in Ninevah or Assur.
9. Trade for Spices?
10. Build any Colonies? Candidates are Elephants and Iron near Samarra, and ... maybe Horses near Absolut? I'm hesitant on building colonies because of how dear workers are, but I do see the need for trade fodder.
11. Adjust Ninevah to build a Town Center, then add another mine to allow 2-turn Sabre Fighters.
12. Mine a BG at Assur and chop two forests to get a Town Center in 2 turns to allow faster growth.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Okay. There's been a LOT of discussion in the past couple of days. I've distilled it down to 12 points:
2. Trade for Feudalism ASAP.
Thoughts on who? Canada - good because they're far, bad because they're already rich."
China - good because they're poor, bad because they're neighbors.
Aztecs - good because they're cheap IF we include Horses in the deal.

I would skip Canada (see point 9).
I would make the deal with the Aztec and include Horses.

9. Trade for Spices?

Canada wants Furs + some gold for spices.

10. Build any Colonies? Candidates are Elephants and Iron near Samarra, and ... maybe Horses near Absolut? I'm hesitant on building colonies because of how dear workers are, but I do see the need for trade fodder.

You can use slaves to build colonies (I only mention this because you said "workers" which are precious, while slaves have their purposes). The "1-turn roading" team I use to bring Furs online is still by Samarra.
I was thinking that Iron+Furs might be used in a trade for Chivalry (We get another fur in 3 turns when Czar's Gold's border expands).

Edit:Question about slaves:
I notice we have 2 types of slaves (1) one type labeled as slave and (2) a second type labled as [nationality] worker.
I seem to recall seeing a difference in the speed they did some tasks. I have not noticed it yet, does this require we learn a tech, get out of despotism, or am I mistaken?

 

[ThERat]

Question about slaves:
I notice we have 2 types of slaves (1) one type labeled as slave and (2) a second type labled as [nationality] worker.
I seem to recall seeing a difference in the speed they did some tasks. I have not noticed it yet, does this require we learn a tech, get out of despotism, or am I mistaken?

The slaves you get from enslaving have only 1 movement, while those foreign nationality guys have 2 movement points but still less efficient (like the enslaved units). From my own experience, you might replace on normal worker for roading and replace with a foreign nationality type (means you need 4+1 workers).

As for upgrading, once you can build you own workers (during Industrial Age), all slaves can get upgraded to movement 2 workers.

 

[Northern Pike]

Okay. There's been a LOT of discussion in the past couple of days.

Yes, that may have been more advice than anyone would want.

Those points look good. Remember that we can't put the tax rate above 80% in despotism anyway, so we needn't strive to get to 9-0-1.

I don't see any reason to trade away horses for Feudalism when we don't have to. The Canadian deal will be fine, as cheapest. The applicable logic is less that they're too rich already, than that they're so rich the marginal effect of giving them more will be trivial. In any case we don't fear rich enemies; looting them funds our operations.

I don't think Rat's comments reflect the latest changes in 1.8, where slaves have been given a move of two, like workers, to end the trouble that discrepancy caused.

I haven't noticed any difference between the work rates of foreign workers and slaves, though it's possible I haven't used enough foreign workers yet in 1.8.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I don't think Rat's comments reflect the latest changes in 1.8, where slaves have been given a move of two, like workers, to end the trouble that discrepancy caused.

I haven't noticed any difference between the work rates of foreign workers and slaves, though it's possible I haven't used enough foreign workers yet in 1.8.

I guess we have to learn some specific tech. Maybe the tech that lets us build unlimited workers.
Here is what I am asking about
In a practice game, where I have the industrious trait and the few foreign workers/slaves I looked at do not (before capture) have the industrious trait here are the results.
at 675AD:

• My worker........road 3 turns; Irrigate 4 turns; Mine 8 turns
• Foreign worker..road 9 turns; Irrigate 12turns; Mine 24 turns
• Slave..............road 9 turns; Irrigate 12turns; Mine 24 turns

at 1825AD:

• My worker........road 2 turns; Irrigate 2 turns; Mine 4 turns
• Foreign worker..road 3 turns; Irrigate 4 turns; Mine 8 turns
• Slave..............road 5 turns; Irrigate 6 turns; Mine 12 turns

It is not bad right now, all captured workers are 3 times slower than our workers.
I wonder if slaves from an industrious nation have the same work rates as slaves from non-industrious nation.

 

[Northern Pike]

Have you checked whether the slaves can upgrade to workers in the later game, as in previous iterations of CCM? If so, that would explain your numbers well.

As far as I'm aware, slaves only ever have one work rate--it doesn't matter if their original civ was industrious, and it doesn't matter if their captors are industrious.

 

[Elephantium]

Just to double-check: We're all agreed on waiting for the end of the Scandinavian war before we revolt to Monarchy, right? I just realized that Royal Garrison is only available post-revolution. In this case, we'll have the Leader sitting in Ninevah for a good 20 turns.

 

[Elephantium]

... WTH? I just had an Enslaver raid a pair of Viking Workers (one Worker, one Northeuropean Worker), and I got a *combat animation*, resulting in the deaths of both Workers. I was expecting a pair of slaves! Civinator, can you comment?

 

[LKendter]

We aren't ready for monarchy. At the end of my set it would have caused economic collapse.

If we can find an alternate leader use, go ahead. I have no clue when monarchy will be viable.

CCM does have workers attacked, and you aren't guaranteed a capture.