LK154 - CCM - Bablyon

[LKendter]

In CCM 1.8 workers come with tech "Steel" and the worker´s rate is doubled with tech "The Corporation". The text in the civilopedia that workers come with tech "Explosives" is outdated in CCM 1.8.

Looks like Greebley will be able to start building workers during his set. With having the ability to mass produce them we won't have to worry as much about protection except for those near the borders.

IMO all our low shield cities should build workers and click rail building as they leave heading toward another city. I can't wait to start having a useful rail-net.

 

[Greebley]

Ok, I got it.

If we are bigger than Israel, we can steal tech with war unlikely.

Our rail network would be bigger by the time of war; we still have the Inca to expunge at the very least.

In any case we can still avoid French attack by not entering their lands until we are ready if we accidentally go to war before we are fully ready.

Agree MMP might protect France a bit longer; Not sure what deals we currently have with the nearby civs, but Indochina could be taken out first.

I was going to ask if anyone had seen France at war, but Lille is French (used Wikipedia - name wasn't familiar to me) and owned by the Incans, so their initial rush will be somewhat smaller (it might have been a while ago)

 

[LKendter]

Some of the other nations do need to be watched. We have some stray units in our lands, and France and Indochina both built annoying cities behind our lines.

The Inca could take up most of your round. The cities are spread out, so the heal and march time will slow things down.

 

[Northern Pike]

The difficulty with choosing Indochina as our next target to avoid the problem of the Israel-France MPP is timing. Moving even our fast units from the Inca front to the Indochinese border without rails would take at least ten turns, by which time we would probably have enough of a thinnet to fight Israel and France simultaneously anyway. We might have to follow Greebley's other suggestion of just declaring war on the French and bleeding them on our own territory for a while.

Unless they are furious with you, a weaker civ is very unlikely to declare war.

Ray, thanks for this.

 

[LKendter]

Once we hit steel, can we upgrade our workers? I think I recall doing that last game, but it has been a long time since I played CCM.

 

[Northern Pike]

I believe the upgrade only ever applied to movement-one slaves, and now that all slaves/workers are movement-two from the start, it isn't part of the game.

When the upgrade was a factor it always came along with double-strength workers, which we've had since Corporation.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Israel is a Democracy. If Israel Declares War doesn't War Weariness hit them faster than if we Declare on them?
If we Declare War on France, and Israel is forced (by MPP) to Declare War on us, how will that impact Israel's War Weariness counter?

 

[Northern Pike]

Yes to your first question; your second is very subtle and I don't know the answer. TBH an enemy's war weariness is something we hardly think about, although perhaps we should, since we expect to crush our opponents too quickly for WW to matter.

 

[Greebley]

I would think if they declare war by mmp, they don't get any war happiness and so it would affect them sooner.

Not sure of exact numbers; but I think war happiness was +30 and democracy folds at -60 (maybe twice this but I don't think so) with units being 1 and cities 15?? That is what I recall.

Not sure if it matters when their govt folds though; it just moves when their anarchy is. Switching govts is fast enough in ccm that folding earlier will balance out by 5 turns into the war (guesstimate based on our rate of taking cities and killing units). City and Unit losses are high enough that the +30 won't amount to more than a turn.

Do Democracies fold in CCM like they do vanilla? Above assumes so but I haven't checked

 

[Northern Pike]

I recall some exchanges with Civinator in which the assumption was certainly that war-weariness governments can collapse in CCM as in C3C.

 

[vmxa]

Bamspeedy from CFC

Length of war did not seem to be a factor (only the # of turns you end your turn with units in their territory).

War weariness kicks in at various thresholds.
First threshold: 25% of your people become unhappy (Republic)
50% unhappy (democracy)
Second threshold: 50% unhappy (Republic)
100% unhappy (Democracy)
Third threshold: 100% unhappy (Republic)
Government overthrown (Democracy)
*Republic can never be overthrown

Units you lose, cities you lose, ending your turn in enemy territory contribute to WW.

Universal Suffrage makes 1 person content in all cities (1 person that would have become unhappy because of war weariness).

Police Stations allow 25% of your people to not become unhappy from WW. (so, in republic at the first threshold, you would see no unhappiness).

I guess I should add:

+1 for each turn you end your turn with a unit in their territory
+2 for each unit you lose
+15 if you have a city of yours razed (or captured?)

*possible ones, that haven't fully been checked:
pillaging, starvation of your citizens due to enemies having control of your former cities

First threshold: 30 war weariness points (WW)
Second threshold: 60 WW
Third threshold: 90WW (Democracy)
120WW (Republic)
*********************************

How does war weariness work?
The study of war weariness goes on. I will thank Bamspeedy and DaveMcW (any other?) for their research, it really helped.

General:
War weariness is tracked for each civ indepentently.
We measure war weariness with wwp (war weariness point).

The different levels of war weariness:

code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Level wwp
-1: - 0 wh (war happiness)
0: 0 - 30 normal, no effect
1: 31 - 60
2: 61 - 90
3: 91 - 120
4: 121 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Effect of ww in war:

All government:
Level -1: 25% happy people

Republic:
Level 1: 25% unhappy people
Level 2: 50% unhappy people
Level 3: 50% unhappy people
Level 4: 100% unhappy people

Democracy:
Level 1: 50% unhappy people
Level 2: 100% unhappy people
Level 3: Revolt

Number of unhappy people is round down. The number from each civ is added together and subtract 25% for police station and 1 for US (Universal Sufferage). The total number of unhappy citizen from ww can not exceed number of citizen.

War happiness is calculated independent in the same way. (No effect of improvments)
War happiness from several enemies could really help

Calculations of wwp:
All starts at 0.
Subtract 30 wwp if the AI attacks you, except when AI is provoked by:
- use of nuclear weapons
- failed spy mission
Anything else? Please tell me if you find something.

Add 1 wwp if you have units in enemys territory when in war. (In beginning of the turn)

The following describes the effect for a human:
Add 1 wwp for each
- lost unit without defence value
- improvment pillage/bombed
- unit that are bombard down to 1 hp
Add 2 wwp when a human attacker is defeated
Add 2 wwp when a unit with defence value is attacked. (Even if you win)
Add 16 wwp when a size 1 city is captured 17 wwp for bigger cities.
What if your cities get bombed?
There is a bug for these penalties. For a human-AI battle, the AI gets the same penalty as the human (he gets penalty for taking human cities, but not for losing his own). For an AI-AI war both gets the penalty the first AI should have. There seems to be no problem with human-human battles.

Subtract 1 wwp if level >= 1, no enemy inside your territory and no units in enemys territory.
Subtract 1/20 of current wwp each turn in peace (round up)

Assume you sign peace when you just have gotten 100% ww in republic (121wwp) and keep out of his territory. Then you will lose 8 wwp the first turn, 7wwp the next. It will take 19 turns to get down to level 0, and 43 turn until the war is totally forgotten.

EDIT: Added info of how the AI gets wwp. Corrected some of the number of wwp given and the descriptions of when you get 1 wwp subtracted.

In the beginning (turn 0) you have 121 wwp.

The next turn this is reduced by 1/20 because of peace. That is 7 wwp (Round up), and 1 wwp because theres no units in wrong territory. So the wwp drops to 113.

The turn after 1/20 of 113 is 6, so wwp is now only reduced by 7.

And so it goes on untill turn 19. No the wwp is below 31, and the only reduction is the 1/20 of the current wwp.

After 43 turn the wwp is down to 0. For each turn you stay in enemy territory, or he stays in yours, , will add one turn. Unless the wwp is reduced to 30, or you are lucky with roundings.

List of turns and wwp
Turn 0- 1 reduction by 8: 121, 113
Turn 2- 3 reduction by 7: 106, 99
Turn 4- 7 reduction by 6: 93, 87, 81, 75
Turn 8-10 reduction by 5: 70, 65, 60
Turn 11-15 reduction by 4: 56, 52, 48, 44, 40
Turn 16-19 reduction by 3: 37, 34, 31, 28
Turn 20-23 reduction by 2: 26, 24, 22, 20
Turn 24-43 reduction by 1: 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0

Author: Oystein; Date Added: 12/8/03

The study of war weariness goes on. I will thank Bamspeedy and DaveMcW (any other?) for their research, it really helped.

General:
War weariness is tracked for each civ independently.
We measure war weariness with wwp (war weariness point).

The different levels of war weariness:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level wwp
-1: - 0 wh (war happiness)
0: 0 - 30 normal, no effect
1: 31 - 60
2: 61 - 90
3: 91 - 120
4: 121 -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Northern Pike]

Thanks--very helpful.

 

[Greebley]

Just starting the first turn 1789 AD.

Not only are we now in the GA, but also our steal of Steel was successful. I (we) knew the US had it because they were the only ones building Eiffel Tower (I assume this is how NP knew it as well).

This was the only tech we could get; they could have combustion or dreadnoughts, but likely we are caught up. [Edit: Missed explosives link -we ARE caught up]

Stealing tech gets harder when they are not tradable as you can't always know what techs they have. I guess wonders are the best indicator; though units or city investigation would work in some cases.

Being able to build Workers may slow the war slightly; we are large enough that I don't feel a need to rush the Incan war but do want the Rail network (and also production/growth boost).

Going for Electricity next in 7 at full science.

BTW Cruiser project is missing a Civ entry but I assume it allows us to build a cruiser of some sort every few turns. Building it in the slower-building town to the south as it will be more useful there for later wars.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Just starting the first turn 1789 AD.

Not only are we now in the GA, but also our steal of Steel was successful. I (we) knew the US had it because they were the only ones building Eiffel Tower (I assume this is how NP knew it as well).

Stealing tech gets harder when they are not tradable as you can't always know what techs they have. I guess wonders are the best indicator; though units or city investigation would work in some cases.

Nice Steal Greebley.
Israel built Theory of Relativity, so they know Electricity and Atomic Theory.

 

[Greebley]

So workers don't seem to use a point of population like older CCM. I wasn't sure as the civopedia said they were like standard workers.

That would mean the Arabian workers are mergable (for pop) and maybe slaves but not built workers? Does that sound right?

 

[Jersey Joe]

So workers don't seem to use a point of population like older CCM. I wasn't sure as the civopedia said they were like standard workers.

That would mean the Arabian workers are mergable (for pop) and maybe slaves but not built workers? Does that sound right?

I did a quick test in a practice game I have. Arabian Workers and slaves are mergable.

However, even though the "Merge" symbol shows up other types of workers both built and (Nationality) worker (e.g. (Inca) worker, (Russian) worker) are not mergable. If you click the "Merge" symbol the worker will disappear but the city population remains unchanged.

 

[Northern Pike]

I've just made the same experiment as JJ, with the same odd result, but he ninja'd me.

As JJ points out, we know we can steal Electricity and Atomic Theory from Israel, and since we're strong relative to them there's little risk of war. So perhaps we should be researching Industrialization, the only other serious choice (omitting Fascism)? Our GA would be a good time to absorb the loss of our windmills and get industry built.

 

[Greebley]

Nice Steal Greebley.
Israel built Theory of Relativity, so they know Electricity and Atomic Theory.

They have also picked up Radio. I haven't seen Industrialization yet; though I still need to check the current turn (1792)

We are doing Electricity manually, but we could go for atomic theory steal after. Note that I was more willing to steal from the US than Israel; if the US attacked it would be right were all our units are. Didn't (yet) dare for Israel - though I don't think they would attack even if caught. Waiting for rails seemed better.

Radio is an annoying tech as it kills the Steam Engine. I would want to wait on that one.

 

[Greebley]

Cross-posted; I was thinking Industry would come up sooner than later so did the Electricity (i.e. we would get beaten to Ind).

We can learn that (Electricity) and steal the next tech.

Note that I don't think we should assume its 100% safe; a weaker AI has been known to attack randomly even when not furious. A war with Israel would throw everything off and the MPP with French means attacking their cities is out. We still have the cash for the steal and are gaining more even at full research.

 

[Northern Pike]

Sure, I understand your prudence about stealing from Israel. We could deal with fighting Israel, France, and what's left of the Incas simultaneously, but it would be an unnecessary complication.