LotR Series...

Libraries and other improvements that boost shields, coins, beakers work on specialists, too.

OK, thanks, Sirian. I assumed that it was like in civ3 and was too lasy to test it myself. Then libs are certainly not useless, but still Caste System looks like a great choice for us.

And i have another similar question then: how abuot money from palace and the religious shrine? I noticed an oddity here, but maybe i am wrong. Coins from palace are allocated towards commerce/scence/culture depending on the sliders, but coins from shrines seem to go dircetly to commerce. And i also haven't tested if they are multiplied by libs/markets are not.
 
Obormot said:
OK, thanks, Sirian. I assumed that it was like in civ3 and was too lasy to test it myself. Then libs are certainly not useless, but still Caste System looks like a great choice for us.

And i have another similar question then: how abuot money from palace and the religious shrine? I noticed an oddity here, but maybe i am wrong. Coins from palace are allocated towards commerce/scence/culture depending on the sliders, but coins from shrines seem to go dircetly to commerce. And i also haven't tested if they are multiplied by libs/markets are not.

Shrine income goes to coins, period. Yes it is multiplied by improvements. (That's the whole point of the Hydra, to put multiple shrines in one city so they all overlap with Wall Street).


- Sirian
 
One of the least understandable flaws in Civ4, IMO, is the use of the same symbol to mean two different things. One is commerce, which is divided up by the slider and generally goes to beakers. The second is gold, which is the subset of commerce that is not used by science or culture. They have the same symbol.

As I recall, the palace produces commerce, so your starting city is reasonably strong. Shrines produce gold (coins, as Sirian calls them). Markets, banks, grocers, etc. all affect gold, I think, but I'm not sure because I haven't tested and the interface doesn't tell you. It's a critical difference and it baffles me why the difference wasn't made to display clearly.

That said, buildings definitely do affect the input from specialists. A scientist in a city all alone produces 3 beakers. With a library, it's closer to 4. Add in Representation and it's 6 base, libraried to 7.5. That's on a par with town income, which is why I think we have a respectable chance.

Another issue we may have is whether to build up one "super scientist" city with an Academy and all the great people scientists we can merge in, or spread the academies out.

I really anticipate a fair number of interesting strategic questions like this to arise, which is why I'm wanting to run this variant! :) But we're not any closer to picking a civ.

As for Code of Laws, it hard requires Writing and then either Currency or Priesthood. Priesthood can be had fairly cheaply. Writing leads to Math leads to Currency, too. Currency also gives the extra trade route per city, which is generally a breakpoint at which more expansion can occur. A not-quite direct beeline to CoL via Currency might be good, if expensive.

Arathorn
 
On the religion subject.

If we start with mysticism, we should try (and should manage on Prince) to get one, mainly for the income, as Sirian said these coins are multiplied by all the proper building and will be very welcome.

In my latest games (Monarch level), even while founding a (early or not) religion, I used to wait a lot before converting to it (or in once not at all), as the little benefit it was was not worth the negativ impact on AI relation.... (was 'sneak attack' in the middle age by my neighbour India with same religion and +15 friendly relation out of the blue anyway, but that is another story...).
I am more in favor of trying to get multiple religions to my cities (even if it means money for some AI) and staying in a 'no official' religion.

Caste system is really a must have, otherwie, we will be with 2 scientist at max for quite a long time.

We also should try to get ASAP, the tech that allow to pass irrigation thru farms, as there won't be much improvement to bring to 'dry' grasslands or plains..

On another subject, how do we want to win...
Cultural could be fun without cottage but with lots of GP.
Military, then we should get an Aggr civ.
Launch, just to prove we can research all the techs...

Jabah
 
Good question, Jabah.

All the cultural wins I've seen (OK, not that many, but still) have relied on cranking the cultural slider WAY the heck up towards the end to get the necessary culture. I don't think we can do that. What we *could* do, though, is pack in a bunch of artists and hope for good multiplication effects. It would probably also require a great artist strategy. To me, this seems like something that has to be decided on too early. I'm open to thoughts on it, though.

Military -- sure! Once composites comes in, the world would be ours for the taking. I'd wager under 50 turns for complete domination. Of course, aggressive doesn't help the later units, only melee and gunpowder. Still, might be the way to go. I tend to think we may have more hammers than typical, so putting those into military might be a good way to go. Also, captured lands get up to speed fast, even after pillaging, if you're not worried about the cottage-type improvements.

Launch -- always good. Much like domination felt like the default victory of Civ III, I think launch is the no-effort win of Civ4. You just kinda fall into it. Not something I would think we necessarily need to plan for early, but....

Diplomatic -- the one you didn't mention. We might have a lot of population, although probably not enough for backdoor domination. BUT, we could try to gain a close ally (or two) and try to use that as a win. The UN tech isn't too ridiculously far into the tree, so it would be a definite likelihood to build it.

I dunno. I tend to think that cultural isn't the way to go. I also think the rest are similar enough that we need not decide now. I've actually found Creative to be one of the best for domination victories anyway. <Shrug> But I'm far from an expert on any of these matters for Civ4.

Arathorn
 
Cultural victory would be extremely difficult with no cottages. We would need a lot of great artists and that means makinf artist specialists instead of scientists, which means that we won't be able to research fast at all. Any of the other victories are fine with me.

As for an early religion, i am an aggressive player and i like to grab a holy city or two from my neighbours, but maybe we can go of hinduism because with such world settings you can never be sure that there will be a holy city on our continent at all. I think an early religion is good when you are isolated because this is the only way to get one for happiness and the religious civics, but not such a good idea when you have neighbours as going for a religion slows growth and may give AI neighbour an edge over you, also it spoils relations, while you can the happiness and good relations from an imported religion. We don't what will be the case, of course, but i would suggest not to go for an early religion, since we are going to beeline to CoL anyway.
 
Hi,

interesting game! I know what I've said about variants, but I would have joined anyway if I hadn't been in 2 SGs already... :rolleyes:

It will be interesting to see if you will really use more specialists. Somehow in my games, there's always a building in production which would do a certain job better than a specialist (uni vs scientist, forge vs engineer etc.), and putting all citizens to work is normally better to complete the building fast than hiring a specialist. That's especially true for the first two thirds of the game; I use specialists there mainly for GPP accumulation, with the odd scientist maybe being an exception. So I might learn something lurking in your game...

I'm not sure if Prince isn't a bit too easy for this, but maybe I'm wrong. :)

I guess you will use windmills and watermills more often than usual, and the techs which upgrade them (especially giving them +commerce) might become a valuable goal.

All the cultural wins I've seen (OK, not that many, but still) have relied on cranking the cultural slider WAY the heck up towards the end to get the necessary culture.
In my Monarch 3CC culture win I used the culture slider only very late in the modern age, and only because there was nothing more to research for me. I would have won with great artists alone as well, so without the 3CC restriction I'm sure you would do fine without touching the slider. But yes, you would have to go for that from the beginning, and it might distract you from your main goal (learning how to use specialists).

-Kylearan
 
What does LoTR stand for? I looked through some of the old strains under CIV3 never saw an explination. Lord of The Rings jumps in my head, thanks for clarification!
 
Arathorn said:
Good question, Jabah.

Military -- sure! Once composites comes in, the world would be ours for the taking. I'd wager under 50 turns for complete domination. Of course, aggressive doesn't help the later units, only melee and gunpowder. Still, might be the way to go. I tend to think we may have more hammers than typical, so putting those into military might be a good way to go. Also, captured lands get up to speed fast, even after pillaging, if you're not worried about the cottage-type improvements.


Arathorn

Strangely enough, modern infantry (AFAIR) are getting the bonus, they might still be gunpowered units (or were pre-patched)...

For the cultural victory, the one I had were quite the reverse of what I read, mine were almost buildings and cultural slider only (NO GP). So I wanted to see if you could do it the other way :-) ...

Jabah
 
Mechanized Infantry are Gunpowder units, oddly enough.
 
Well I am jealous how fast this one filled up. ;)

OTOH, not being able to browse at work bites and I didn't even have a debate about the opening.
 
On the subject of religions: I am using the following slingshot strategy a lot: If you start without mysticism, early religions are pretty hard to get. So, I aim at CoL (which gives Confucianism).
The way to get there, is to build the Oracle with priesthood (via mysticism + meditation) and choose the free CoL tech. On prince level, this can easily be achieved. Before I go for that, I would go for BW to be able to chop forests. With chops a lot can be sped up. In fact the first build I chose is a worker and research BW. The worker will then chop forests to churn out 1 more worker and eventually a settler. The times in between are used to grow the city and get warriors. Since writing is needed for the CoL slingshot, archery is taken as an intermediate step. This helps to fend off barbs.

Of course, this strategy needs some allowance for the starting positions (depending on cows/horses or maybe wheat). there is enough time to get some optional techs with this strategy and it almost 100% works on prince.
 
@Arathorn's complaint:
I recommend suporstar's mod which replaces the coin with a stack of coins for gold (as opposed to commerce, which is still the gold coin).
 
Arathorn said:
Sign-ups and discussion for LotR18 are now open! Please only sign up if you are willing to discuss the game in some depth before we even begin.

LotR18: No Cottage Challenge
Difficulty: Prince (up to negotiation, but "feels" right to me)
Map type: Custom -- continents with random number -- pretty random
Civ: TBD -- see discussion below
Map size: Standard
Game speed: Standard
Variant: We may never work a tile with a cottage improvement -- no cottages, hamlets, villages, or towns. This will make commerce challenging, to be sure. We can never build them with our workers. If we capture land, we must be sure to pillage the improvements so our new cities can not work cottages.

I feel that this is hardly a variant, because I am developing the same strategy in my solo immortal game. :)

Assuming equivalent usefulness of engineer and scientist, we can deduce that 1 hammer is worth 1.5 gold. With representation from pyramids, a specialist is worth 6 beakers or 2 hammers + 3 beakers, generally 6 gold. A pop needs 2 food, so 1 food is worth 3 gold. Therefore, if a tile generates f food, h hammer, and c commerce, its value is 3*f+1.5*h+c gold. To determine whether we want a citizen to work the tile, we compare this value with the 6 gold and 3 GPP from a specialist (without considering happiness and health issues). The conclusions are:

1. A tile with >=3 food is always worthy to work.

2. A resource tile with approriate improvement is in most cases worthy to work, but not always. For example, a fur on tundra generates nothing but 4 gold, which is too few.

3. A normal (no resource) tile with 0 or 1 food is in most cases not worth working.

4. A normal tile with 2 food becomes interesting. It can sustain a citizen by itself, so would we like to put a citizen there and let city grow faster, or let city grow slower or be stagnant and get 3 GPP? My current idea is: if besides the 2 food, the tile generates just 1 gold or 1 hammer (e.g., ocean, grassland forest), then it's not as useful as 3 GPP. Otherwise, working the tile is better.

Therefore, some general ideas about strategies:

1. Early on, farm every riverside tile. After learning civil service, farm non-river grassland tiles.

2. If a city exceeds its happiness or health limit, do pop rush. Pop rush becomes amazingly efficient in civ 4, because it only makes 1 unhappiness. For this purpose, expansive trait is nice thankful to cheap granary. :D

3. Build watermill after it's available, just note to keep the fresh water network for inland farms. This makes financial trait still useful for no cottage, since waterwill and sea tiles generate 2 gold. Even not financial, the 2 gold and 2 hammer from watermill is still nice.

4. State property? A non-river non-tree flatland tile can only have 2 improvements: cottage and workshop. Since cottage is no-no, the only option is workshop. With best techs, it makes 3 hammers but -1 food. However, under state property, the -1 food is recovered, therefore a workshop is as good as a lumbermill (both +3 hammer). State property also adds 1 food for watermill, and eliminates distance maintenance, and has no upkeep, -- just too cool! Well, pity for the free specialist from mercantillism ...

5. If you really want to stay at mercantillism, then you should keep most non-river trees for future lumbermills.

All in all, I think that emphasizing specialist and pop rush over cottage is a very viable strategy. Well, if you insist zero cottage, that's a bit variant, but probably not too much. :)
 
Arathorn, maybe you roll a start once we decided which Civ to choose and then we can discuss the opening strategy depending on the situation.

It really depends on which type of resources we have closeby (+ how much forest)
 
Vol said:
Go with Peter.
:eek: hey this is unfair, influencing our decision when I wanted Alex :gripe:

anyway, both are fine with me ;)
 
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