classical_hero
In whom I trust
Well you could make the case that each team was basically a team a neutrals which each had a different goal that is separate from the rest. Perhaps it might be best to call everyone neutral on that one.
Mafia/NOTW Statistics
- Thread starter choxorn
- Start date
Askthepizzaguy
Know the Dark Side
I really hate to call something neutral when it is not.
A serial killer for example is not NEUTRAL to town or mafia, it's actively opposed to both. Neutrals are radically different.
Town is not neutral to the mafia, mafia is not neutral to the town, or even other mafias.
Neutral is the worst term to be using here. I'd prefer my character was thought of as Serial Killer (which it was not, since I was told I was townie and the game was advertised as a mafia game) than a neutral, because my character was definitely not neutral and neither were the scums.
A serial killer for example is not NEUTRAL to town or mafia, it's actively opposed to both. Neutrals are radically different.
Town is not neutral to the mafia, mafia is not neutral to the town, or even other mafias.
Neutral is the worst term to be using here. I'd prefer my character was thought of as Serial Killer (which it was not, since I was told I was townie and the game was advertised as a mafia game) than a neutral, because my character was definitely not neutral and neither were the scums.
My question is: what number of townies would be enough to count them townies?
What number of mafia would be small enough to call them mafia?
Would you judge in a game with 3 'townies' and 17 'mafia' in 4 families, that those townies were actually townies?
If so, why not in case of lone townie?
If not, let's go further...
Would you judge in a game with 6 'townies' and 12 'mafia' in 3 families, that those townies were actually townies?
If so, why not in a case of 3 townies or 1 townie?
If not, let's go further....
Would you judge in a game with 10 'townies' and 9 'mafia' in 3 families, that those townies were actually townies?
Etc.
My point is, that one cannot IMO say: so small number of townies makes it impossible to consider them real townies. You cannot say that even if there is only one townie.
Of course, it is just my opinion
What number of mafia would be small enough to call them mafia?
Would you judge in a game with 3 'townies' and 17 'mafia' in 4 families, that those townies were actually townies?
If so, why not in case of lone townie?
If not, let's go further...
Would you judge in a game with 6 'townies' and 12 'mafia' in 3 families, that those townies were actually townies?
If so, why not in a case of 3 townies or 1 townie?
If not, let's go further....
Would you judge in a game with 10 'townies' and 9 'mafia' in 3 families, that those townies were actually townies?
Etc.
My point is, that one cannot IMO say: so small number of townies makes it impossible to consider them real townies. You cannot say that even if there is only one townie.
Of course, it is just my opinion
Romanichine
Samurai
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Messages
- 605
The definition of the game of Mafia is "a battle between an informed minority and an uninformed majority", as Zack said.
A single Town player doesn't make sense, nor 3 Town vs 17 Mafia. The Town should represents the majority (and not know their teammates), and the Mafia should be in minority (and know their teammates). Of course there's a lot of variations, but this is the standard, from the Davidoff game.
3 Town versus 17 Mafia = The Town should be considered Mafia, and vice versa. Such as Kennigit's current game where the Town is a bunch of villains, and marked as the Red team, with the good guys being the Blue team. It doesn't matter what Kennigit calls them, or the colors he's using, the bad guys are the Town.
So in your game Jarrema, it doesn't matter that ATPG was named Town - if he was the only Town, then he's not Town, not by the true definition of a mafia game.
To answer your question, the Town needs to be a majority, and a game of 10 Town versus 9 Mafia would qualify for this, but the balance would be questionable.
A single Town player doesn't make sense, nor 3 Town vs 17 Mafia. The Town should represents the majority (and not know their teammates), and the Mafia should be in minority (and know their teammates). Of course there's a lot of variations, but this is the standard, from the Davidoff game.
3 Town versus 17 Mafia = The Town should be considered Mafia, and vice versa. Such as Kennigit's current game where the Town is a bunch of villains, and marked as the Red team, with the good guys being the Blue team. It doesn't matter what Kennigit calls them, or the colors he's using, the bad guys are the Town.
So in your game Jarrema, it doesn't matter that ATPG was named Town - if he was the only Town, then he's not Town, not by the true definition of a mafia game.
To answer your question, the Town needs to be a majority, and a game of 10 Town versus 9 Mafia would qualify for this, but the balance would be questionable.
Ok, fair argument. There is clear cut-off then, so it is really good way to determinate being town or not.
So, from this definition, we have two elements that constitues 'being town':
1. majority
2. uninformed
In my game, and in other examples, I was talking in fact about 'uninformed minority'
So, it just do not match standard mafia game definition. I do not think that ATPG was either mafia or town according to this definition
OTOH some games where everyone or almost everyone is part of a team, also do not fully match this definition
So, from this definition, we have two elements that constitues 'being town':
1. majority
2. uninformed
In my game, and in other examples, I was talking in fact about 'uninformed minority'
So, it just do not match standard mafia game definition. I do not think that ATPG was either mafia or town according to this definition
OTOH some games where everyone or almost everyone is part of a team, also do not fully match this definition
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
And, going back to TFA's It's a Long Story, no way were any of us 'neutral,' as we all had our own faction with separate goals to achieve. I'm thinking we need to add another category, let's say multifactional, then specify which faction ended up winning. Whoever was on the faction gets credited with a win, while everyone else in the game comes up short. The definition of neutral is basically someone who can win with either team - the mafia or townies. Calling these games a neutral win is misleading and not accurate.
There doesn't seem to be much agreement at all, here, so I'll just go with Romanic and Jarrema's post two above mine and not count it.
On another note, The Kingmaker's Lynch has been added. Wideyed, flamingzaroc, and civplayah are mafia and won, and landlubber is the lyncher, who also won. I'll consider lyncher to be "neutral."
The lynchee, Gary141/robbiecon, is innocent like everyone else.
On another note, the game featured 4 dead players who were used as replacements, but it doesn't make a bit of difference, because all of them had two innocent roles.
Next to be added to the database is NOTW XXXV: Life's A Bore. For the most part, it's not very difficult, but there's one thing I'm not sure about: What I should I rule the Shades as for alive/dead? They were lynched, but weren't technically speaking "dead."
On another note, The Kingmaker's Lynch has been added. Wideyed, flamingzaroc, and civplayah are mafia and won, and landlubber is the lyncher, who also won. I'll consider lyncher to be "neutral."
The lynchee, Gary141/robbiecon, is innocent like everyone else.
On another note, the game featured 4 dead players who were used as replacements, but it doesn't make a bit of difference, because all of them had two innocent roles.
Next to be added to the database is NOTW XXXV: Life's A Bore. For the most part, it's not very difficult, but there's one thing I'm not sure about: What I should I rule the Shades as for alive/dead? They were lynched, but weren't technically speaking "dead."
landlubber
Scottish Nationalist
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2010
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- 1,534
I'd say count them as alive if they survived to the end.
Romanichine
Samurai
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Messages
- 605
Revived players are counted as alive.
Lynch protected/immune players are counted alive if failed to lynch.
Nightkilled protected/immune players are counted as alive if failed to kill.
I think players with two lives, such as shades in NOTW 35 should be counted as still alive, since they could influence the game with abilities, and could be killed again. Yes, in such a setup these players will be more likely to survive, but it's just game mechanics like the other examples I listed above. All roles are not equal in mafia, what can you do.
Lynch protected/immune players are counted alive if failed to lynch.
Nightkilled protected/immune players are counted as alive if failed to kill.
I think players with two lives, such as shades in NOTW 35 should be counted as still alive, since they could influence the game with abilities, and could be killed again. Yes, in such a setup these players will be more likely to survive, but it's just game mechanics like the other examples I listed above. All roles are not equal in mafia, what can you do.
TheLastDays
Warlord
In fact all roles are equal. It's just, some are more equal than others 
Finally got around to adding Life's a Bore.
Mafia (6): Link, King Flevence, Earthling, Skooma Addict, Zack, Takhisis
Neutral (3): classical_hero, Domination, Kennigit
Town (20): Everyone else
All townies won, all non-townies lost.
On the above people's advice, shades will be counted as survived if they only died once.
Survived: landlubber, Frozen, Nictel, remake20, Winston Hughes (Ravus Sol, being a replacement dead player, is still counted as dead)
Replaced (4): Ekolite, Pinman, Mango Elephant, bestrfcplayer
I'll count Renata as being dead (the second role) instead of replaced (the first one), since she was replaced after being faded and never read her original role PM.
Interesting factoid: Aramazd has played exactly three games in the database: This one, NOTW 25, and The Blue Room, and won all 3, giving him a 3-game winning streak that spans more than two years. Unless he got replaced in one of the NOTW's between then and now (that might break the streak...), this is, in one sense, the longest winning streak I've seen yet.
Mafia (6): Link, King Flevence, Earthling, Skooma Addict, Zack, Takhisis
Neutral (3): classical_hero, Domination, Kennigit
Town (20): Everyone else
All townies won, all non-townies lost.
On the above people's advice, shades will be counted as survived if they only died once.
Survived: landlubber, Frozen, Nictel, remake20, Winston Hughes (Ravus Sol, being a replacement dead player, is still counted as dead)
Replaced (4): Ekolite, Pinman, Mango Elephant, bestrfcplayer
I'll count Renata as being dead (the second role) instead of replaced (the first one), since she was replaced after being faded and never read her original role PM.
Interesting factoid: Aramazd has played exactly three games in the database: This one, NOTW 25, and The Blue Room, and won all 3, giving him a 3-game winning streak that spans more than two years. Unless he got replaced in one of the NOTW's between then and now (that might break the streak...), this is, in one sense, the longest winning streak I've seen yet.
johnhughthom
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2009
- Messages
- 1,450
Well games were you aren't a player usually are better.
johnhughthom
Emperor
- Joined
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- Messages
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Unfortunately my ability to compute cromulent gramer was compleatly rooined by this poast in the simsins game.
I'm still trying to work it out.
And now I'll stop spamming Choxorn's excellent thread.
I'm still trying to work it out.
And now I'll stop spamming Choxorn's excellent thread.
