Marksman defense for Mages. Why Hawks the best option?

[Goodgimp]

I'd appreciate more options for guarding mages. They're a heavy investment, which Assassins are not ( replacable much faster).

That's true, but mages are also absolutely devastating, with assassins being their only true counter.

Let me put it this way, if you have a Meteor-throwing mage in a stack of defending units, how else are you going to get rid of him before he obliterates you?

 

[Cuteunit]

if I have an Archmage in a stack and he dies to an assassin somebody built in 3 turns, I'd feel more like uninstalling the mod and calling curses down on all the children of the authors for all time, than anything else

 

[Goodgimp]

I can understand that But the point still stands, without a unit like the Assassin, how is the opponent supposed to counter the meteor-tossing Archmage? The strongest of stacks gets pretty well liquified before they can get too close.

I guess my argument is, with Archmages being as powerful as they are, they need a big counter. If the counter is removed or mitigated, you need to reduce the effectiveness of their attacks.

 

[dwhee]

I haven't used marksmen in a while, so my objections may not be up to date. Do they still kill workers and settlers if they're in the stack? They really shouldn't. I just now heard about this hawk exploit, and I seriously hope people aren't using it thinking it's an actual game mechanic. What's the hawk gonna do, swoop down in front of the marksman's arrow? That'll save my archmage.

I feel that marksmen should somehow take into account the value of a unit, which I assumed they already did. For example, if given the choice between a wounded warrior and an archmage, it won't attack the warrior just because it has a 99% chance of victory instead of 95% against the archmage.

 

[eerr]

I feel that marksmen should somehow take into account the value of a unit, which I assumed they already did. For example, if given the choice between a wounded warrior and an archmage, it won't attack the warrior just because it has a 99% chance of victory instead of 95% against the archmage.

the promotion already does, marksmen are more likely to attack units with arcane 1, sorcery, summoning, divine, arcane 3 and of course, hero
(not sure where hero is on that priority list)
reverse of the effect where units with said promotion were more likely "not" to defend

 

[jrandrew]

Thematically, don't forget Taskmasters. They use marksman, don't they? And from a unit theme point of view, it makes sense that they would attack (and enslave) the weak and wounded. Not quite like regular assassins, whose theme would be more to attack and kill powerful individuals (i.e. Archmages.)

It might be too much of a pain to come up with a different promotion for Taskmasters, though. I agree in general that Assassins should be the mage-counter.

 

[onedreamer]

Never read it but it is natural. What are most valueble weak units in the same time enough powerful to need balancing in this way? Arcane spellcasters. No?

Maybe also hurt units but it is secondary. Workers? Settlers? Birds? Secondary, IMHO. Maybe naval in cities but i feel it like an exploit.

No. I don't see Mages as valuable units as most of you seem to. Exactly beacuse they are weak, and IMO they are a support for the really powerful units in the game. Assassins are good at killing superpromoted and defensive injured untis/Heroes defended by a stack, that otherwise would be practically unkillable. Mages are only attacking or support units, so you can easily kill them with initiative.

 

[onedreamer]

I guess my argument is, with Archmages being as powerful as they are, they need a big counter. If the counter is removed or mitigated, you need to reduce the effectiveness of their attacks.

Anything that anyone can build is countered by itself.

 

[it-ogo]

No. I don't see Mages as valuable units as most of you seem to. Exactly beacuse they are weak, and IMO they are a support for the really powerful units in the game.

That's what I believe they should be. Supporting, buffing, improving uits. But now with fire magic they in fact are absolute destructive power.

 

[onedreamer]

I suspect that many were just "dominated" by the Fire Archmage and don't realize that it's not *that* unstoppable power. Before this, I remember the Cult of the Ring of Fire. Which btw remains a stronger weapon than Fireball/Meteor Shower IMHO, if you consider that its unit is stronger.