Marriage

[ironduck]

You don't want me to get started on "natural law." If you want me to get started on the subject, be prepared for a long discussion about Thomas Aquinas.

Well, I've enjoyed your posts so I wouldn't mind

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Hey, in my church sex within marriage for pleasure is ok. So is birth control, although most people don't realize this because we have enormous families and this leads a lot of people to think that the only way this can happen is that we are somehow opposed to birth control. And these rules were written not by professional celibates but by men with dozens of wives, so they must have known what they were talking about, right?

And by the way bestiality=sex with an animal. Under the Law of Moses if a man was caught having sex with an animal both he and the animal were to be stoned to death. Also, as far as I can tell the Law didn't prohibit lesbianism. The only mention of female homosexuality anywhere in the Bible is Romans 1:27.

 

[ironduck]

I wonder what the background were for many of those old testament laws.. some of them strike me as similar to fear of witch craft and such from the middle ages. Anything 'unknown' was looked upon with suspicion and often treated like the person was a grave danger to society. And no, I don't think bestiality is a good idea.

 

[GenMarshall]

You don't want me to get started on "natural law." If you want me to get started on the subject, be prepared for a long discussion about Thomas Aquinas.

No need for a discussion on Thomas Aquinas. I dont agree with the criticisms about my Church (Hense why I started taking up an "Frankly my dear, I dont give a damn" and "What's your problem?" mind set like the Eastern Orthodox have as Eran once stated)

It is the height of arrogance to think that you or your church know what my needs are and thus what is best for me! Good riddance!

I fail to see how that I or the Church have that such arrogance. But realy neather I nor the Church are at the height of arrogance.

The point is that you specifically said that people are not close if they use contraceptive. I speak from experience - yes, they are very much close. Much closer than without sex due to denial of contraceptive.

To think that closeness to another human being is sinful is just sad, but that is your problem.

I guess you never been exposed to the truths on contraceptives. Condoms are prone to break and The Pill is not that effective. All artifical contraceptives are not 100% effective. The only 100% effective birth control methods are NFP (If done during infertal periods) and abstanance.

I dont see the closeness to another human being is sinful. Its only the use of artifical contraceptives that I find sinful since it creates a barrier between two people.

Spot the contradiction here?

I dont see no contradictions in that passage. It only refers to increacing fertality by artifical means.

Jesus is counselling the person, but Jesus is without sin, yeah? You're not without sin, so why do you get to do it? Whether someone throws a stone at me or just tells me I'm sinning, I'm wrong and I should repent, that's still an attack on me. And as I said, isn't the point of that story to encourage people to worry about their own sins first before worrying about what other people do?

The passage is not about worring about one's own sins. The passage states clear as a bell at the end "Go, and sin no more" and also that no one would condem you if repent for your sins.

 

[Pyrite]

"The only 100% effective birth control methods are NFP"

Wrong, it fails to account for surviving sperm and abrubt changes in cycle which are infrequent but possible. And to call abstinence a method of birth control is like calling pacifism a method of controlling violent crime....

"I dont agree with the criticisms about my Church (Hense why I started taking up an "Frankly my dear, I dont give a damn" and "What's your problem?" mind set like the Eastern Orthodox have as Eran once stated)"

Also known as the ostrich method, or doublethink.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

You are saying that the "rhythm method" is the only 100% effective method if done right. But often it isn't done right. Condoms are 100% effective if the man always remembers to use them and puts them on right so they don't break. If combined with the Pill, I bet no one has gotten pregnant.

Abstinence isn't perfect. After all, Mary practiced it and look what happened. I mean, everyone else has gotten good results (although people have gotten pregnant from being raped) but it isn't viable within marriage.

 

[YNCS]

No need for a discussion on Thomas Aquinas. I dont agree with the criticisms about my Church (Hense why I started taking up an "Frankly my dear, I dont give a damn" and "What's your problem?" mind set like the Eastern Orthodox have as Eran once stated)

The stick your fingers in your ears and chant "nyah nyah nyah I can't hear you" argument.

My point is that the Catholic Church regards all matters of sex and marriage, including homosexuality and contraception, from an extremely slanted viewpoint.

 

[Tycoon101]

Hey, in my church sex within marriage for pleasure is ok. So is birth control, although most people don't realize this because we have enormous families and this leads a lot of people to think that the only way this can happen is that we are somehow opposed to birth control. And these rules were written not by professional celibates but by men with dozens of wives, so they must have known what they were talking about, right?

And by the way bestiality=sex with an animal. Under the Law of Moses if a man was caught having sex with an animal both he and the animal were to be stoned to death. Also, as far as I can tell the Law didn't prohibit lesbianism. The only mention of female homosexuality anywhere in the Bible is Romans 1:27.

Ouch... I will abstain (A pun, a pun! ) from saying anything against your religeon, but I will politely disagree with you.

The church that I attend says nothing about birth control, yet I accept the Catholic teachings (Minus sin). And why did they have dozens of wives, did they view females as subhumans? And it is a good thing that people who have bestiality should be stoned.

 

[GenMarshall]

The stick your fingers in your ears and chant "nyah nyah nyah I can't hear you" argument.

I just dont like hearing criticisms about my faith. Thats why I chose not to agree with it and not listen.

My point is that the Catholic Church regards all matters of sex and marriage, including homosexuality and contraception, from an extremely slanted viewpoint.

I dont realy care if they have a slanted viewpoint. Is realy my faith and my religion. So I will politely disagree with the criticisms of the Church.

 

[Tycoon101]

You are saying that the "rhythm method" is the only 100% effective method if done right. But often it isn't done right. Condoms are 100% effective if the man always remembers to use them and puts them on right so they don't break. If combined with the Pill, I bet no one has gotten pregnant.

I disagree. Condoms have an 85% chance of birth prevention, and a much lower rate of success for STD blockage. Birth control pills may work for birth, but what about STD's? And maybe a combo has prevented pregnancy, but not disease. (Would you want to get a STD from your spouse?)

Abstinence isn't perfect. After all, Mary practiced it and look what happened. I mean, everyone else has gotten good results (although people have gotten pregnant from being raped) but it isn't viable within marriage.

? Are you saying that God raped Mary?

And abstinence within marriage is absolutely possible. Did you know that?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Abstinence within marriage is possible but it goes against what I think marriage is supposed to do. Not a good idea.

When we practiced plural marriage, we still thought women were equal to men. Utah, after all, was second to give women the vote. Interestingly, the federal government repealed women's suffrage as part of the antipolygamy statutes. Most Mormons think the reason we practiced polygamy was because there were more righteous women than men. This may not be true, but it is one of the most common views.

And God didn't rape Mary, she consented to getting pregnant. She just didn't stop practicing abstinence.

Can you give a good source on your statistics of condom failure? Remember, what really matters is condom failure when it is used properly, as you are comparing it to the rhythm method when used properly.

 

[ironduck]

I fail to see how that I or the Church have that such arrogance. But realy neather I nor the Church are at the height of arrogance.

You cannot see the arrogance of claiming that you and your church knows best for everyone? How do you and your church know what is best for me? How do you know my needs? Please go ahead and tell me what my needs are since you know them so well!

I guess you never been exposed to the truths on contraceptives. Condoms are prone to break and The Pill is not that effective. All artifical contraceptives are not 100% effective. The only 100% effective birth control methods are NFP (If done during infertal periods) and abstanance.

First of all, you completely ignored what I was replying to: the fact that people who have sex (with contraception) are more intimate than people who do not have sex.

Secondly, no one here has stated that contraceptives are 100% effective - neither is NFP (which is also a means of birth control in case you didn't notice, only it is much less useful).

I dont see the closeness to another human being is sinful. Its only the use of artifical contraceptives that I find sinful since it creates a barrier between two people.

How does the pill create a barrier? How does a vasectomy create a barrier? Once again, how is it more of a barrier to have sex using the pill or having had a vasectomy than it is to NOT have sex at all? This is beyond silly, you are claiming that people are less intimate when they make love with some form of 'unauthorized' birth control than if they didn't make love at all.

edited for clarity

 

[YNCS]

I just dont like hearing criticisms about my faith. Thats why I chose not to agree with it and not listen.

What a particularly narrow viewpoint. But if that's what keeps you happy, I won't inflict my opinions on you any more, except for the following statement. I still think the Church's positions on marriage, sex, and contraception are based on misunderstandings of how the rest of humanity functions.

 

[GenMarshall]

You cannot see the arrogance of claiming that you and your church knows best for everyone? How do you and your church know what is best for me? How do you know my needs? Please go ahead and tell me what my needs are since you know them so well!

Shesh, keep your pants on. No need to attack me just because I am a Catholic and hold their teachings to be true. I dont know your needs and neather does the Church.

First of all, you completely ignored what I was replying to: the fact that people who have sex (with contraception) are more intimate than people who do not have sex.

I fail to see how people who have contraceptive sex are more intimate than people who dont. People who abstain from sex or not interested in sex can be as intamate as people who have sex. Plus sex does not need to be the main staple of a relationship.

Secondly, no one here has stated that contraceptives are 100% effective - neither is NFP (which is also a means of birth control in case you didn't notice, only it is much less useful).

NFP is the only moral form of birth control because it does not involve chemicals to effect the body and does not involve a barrier between two partners.

How does the pill create a barrier? How does a vasectomy create a barrier? Once again, how is it more of a barrier to have sex using the pill or having had a vasectomy than it is to NOT have sex at all? This is beyond silly, you are claiming that people are less intimate when they make love with some form of 'unauthorized' birth control than if they didn't make love at all.

The pill just prevents the union of egg and sperm by chemical means by preventing the egg from being droped from the ovaries. A vasectomy also creates a barrier in which the sperm is not transmited. Abstanance from any sexual activity does not involve one to releace his seed into an infertile enviormnent, where as the use of artifical contraception the seed is releaced into infertile enviorment.From my point of view I see the use of artifical contraceptives as immoral because it encourages pre-marital sex without consequences and also prevents the creation of life by artifical means.

What a particularly narrow viewpoint. But if that's what keeps you happy, I won't inflict my opinions on you any more

The thing that you dont understand where I am comming from, is that I am still a relitively new Christian who is about to enter the Catholic faith. I find that any criticisms and attacks on my faith would make me feel shakey and eventualy doubt my faith. I dont want to have that happen.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

I just dont like hearing criticisms about my faith. Thats why I chose not to agree with it and not listen.

If you don't like hearing criticisms, then don't declare criticisms of others.

If you declare criticisms of others, then expect to get them in return.

Sorry, but that's just the way the world is. Pretending to not listen won't help and won't change anything. Ask yourself, why do criticize others, if not to get a response back?

People who abstain from sex or not interested in sex can be as intamate as people who have sex.

You are so very, very wrong, and someday when you find someone you deeply love you will understand just how wrong you are.

 

[GenMarshall]

If you don't like hearing criticisms, then don't declare criticisms of others.

If you declare criticisms of others, then expect to get them in return.

I perfer to declare criticisms of others, however, I do not expect to get them in return.

Sorry, but that's just the way the world is. Pretending to not listen won't help and won't change anything. Ask yourself, why do criticize others, if not to get a response back?

Thats not how it works for me. Pretending to not listen does help me since apperently nothing I say or place forward changes anyone.

You are so very, very wrong, and someday when you find someone you deeply love you will understand just how wrong you are.

How am I so very, very wrong? I dont realy believe that would prove me wrong. I have no interest in sex and waiting untill marrage before I do it.

Oh right, I am in a forum full of hormone hyped people (no offense)

 

[YNCS]

I perfer to declare criticisms of others, however, I do not expect to get them in return.

Sorry, but that's not how the real world operates. If you can't take it, don't even think about giving it out.

Thats not how it works for me. Pretending to not listen does help me since apperently nothing I say or place forward changes anyone.

Then why are you in this discussion? If you're not trying to change peoples' opinions, or at least influence them to consider your opinions, then all you're doing is working for your own gratification, without a thought for anyone else. In other words, you're essentially masturbating. Masturbation may be gratifying, but it is really a quite fruitless endeavor.

How am I so very, very wrong? I dont realy believe that would prove me wrong. I have no interest in sex and waiting untill marrage before I do it.

You're wrong because, like Tycoon, you're just exposing your ignorance. Sahkuhnder and I may have our political disagreements, but we're both married and we both have a good understanding of the importance of sex in a marriage. To have someone make comments based on a religious viewpoint while (a) displaying ignorance on the subject and (b) refusing to listen to opposing viewpoints because you don't want your shaky religious views challenged is annoying to other people in the discussion.

Oh right, I am in a forum full of hormone hyped people (no offense)

Insulting people and then pretending you didn't by writing "no offense" and putting up a smiley is not a good way to win friends and influence people.

 

[GenMarshall]

Sorry, but that's not how the real world operates. If you can't take it, don't even think about giving it out.

I still am going to give out my $.02. But I am not going to accept nor take any other criticisms from other people.

Then why are you in this discussion? If you're not trying to change peoples' opinions, or at least influence them to consider your opinions, then all you're doing is working for your own gratification, without a thought for anyone else. In other words, you're essentially masturbating. Masturbation may be gratifying, but it is really a quite fruitless endeavor.

I am trying to at least influence them to consider my opinions. But apperently they would not even take a second look on my point of view?

You're wrong because, like Tycoon, you're just exposing your ignorance. Sahkuhnder and I may have our political disagreements, but we're both married and we both have a good understanding of the importance of sex in a marriage. To have someone make comments based on a religious viewpoint while (a) displaying ignorance on the subject and (b) refusing to listen to opposing viewpoints because you don't want your shaky religious views challenged is annoying to other people in the discussion.

How am I wrong? I dont even have any ignorance and dont believe that sex is important in marrage. Its not because of religion, but its because of personal choice and experiance. I even held that viewpoint before I converted to Christianity mainly because "I have not gotten any". (Yes I will admit that I am a virgin and plan to stay that way untill marriage). I personaly dont believe that sex is important in marriage. Why do I believe that sex is not important in marriage? Its because today's society is hyped up on sex, everywhere I turn its sex this and sex that. I have been through all that peer pressure that it drove me nuts that I never gotten any plus being a loner through high school and being picked on badly did not helped eather.

Insulting people and then pretending you didn't by writing "no offense" and putting up a smiley is not a good way to win friends and influence people.

Sorry, I was only trying to joke around. No need to harp on me . I am sorry if I annyoed you or any posters by my "ignorance" .

 

[croxis]

I still am going to give out my $.02. But I am not going to accept nor take any other criticisms from other people.

CivGeneral - how blatantly ignorant of you. Seriously. I expected far more integrity and honor out of you than this. If you are going to point out what you think are faults but not be ready for people to point out yours.. its.. its.. morally corrupt. You are the last person to be casting stones if this is how you want it.

I am trying to at least influence them to consider my opinions. But apperently they would not even take a second look on my point of view?

Yes they are considering it which is why many well written posts have been made on the subject addressing each point you brought up. To be able to retort with some of the grace I have seen here very much requires deconstructing your arguments and looking at them in a more raw form.

How am I wrong? I dont even have any ignorance and dont believe that sex is important in marrage. Its not because of religion, but its because of personal choice and experiance.

You mean ignorance. You are not married, and I assume you have not had sex, there for you truly can not understand what it is like. This is similar to a post I made recently. As a teenage I thought I knew what love was, but as I became emotionally more experience I realized that what I thought it was wasn't true. You believe something without having any basis in fact, while the people who are married and there for are quite more qualified than either of us on this subject have clearly stated otherwise.

I even held that viewpoint before I converted to Christianity mainly because "I have not gotten any". (Yes I will admit that I am a virgin and plan to stay that way untill marriage). I personaly dont believe that sex is important in marriage. Why do I believe that sex is not important in marriage? Its because today's society is hyped up on sex, everywhere I turn its sex this and sex that. I have been through all that peer pressure that it drove me nuts that I never gotten any plus being a loner through high school and being picked on badly did not helped eather.

Wow. I have not seen such a poor argument in quite some time. You haven't gotten any + sex overhype = sex is not important? Where is the logical connection in this? I'm willing to argue that there isn't any more hype about sex than there was for the past 80 years, it is just now more visible. My Granddad who served in WW2 alluded to sex as being a popular topic of conversation. Or maybe sex is "overhyped" because it is actually a very important part of the human experience!

Your ego must also be humongous to think that your experience is universal. I did not lose my virginity until I was 19 and a half and no one ever pressured or teased me about it. Well that blew your argument right out of the water right there. You *think* all these things are true about a topic you know nothing about and ignore the wisdom of your elders who know better.

And you wonder why what happened to you on IRC happened......

 

[ironduck]

Civgeneral, I replied to your pm, but I'll just reply here as well since you seem to misunderstand my posts.

Shesh, keep your pants on. No need to attack me just because I am a Catholic and hold their teachings to be true. I dont know your needs and neather does the Church.

You specifically said that the Catholic church knows what is best for everyone. I'm not attacking you because you're Catholic, I'm asking how in the world you can claim that you or your church knows what is best for everyone. I don't know what is best for anyone but me (and sometimes I don't even know that!). Since every single person has different needs to claim knowledge of each of their needs is just plain arrogant.

I fail to see how people who have contraceptive sex are more intimate than people who dont. People who abstain from sex or not interested in sex can be as intamate as people who have sex. Plus sex does not need to be the main staple of a relationship.

Making love to the person you are in love with is the most intimate thing in the world. Contraception doesn't matter. It's a meeting of souls.

From my point of view I see the use of artifical contraceptives as immoral because it encourages pre-marital sex without consequences and also prevents the creation of life by artifical means.

First of all, I will never understand what is wrong with pre-marital sex. But that's not the point here. If someone wants to prevent the creation of life they can do a number of things - one of them is to monitor the woman's ovulation cycle to only have intercourse when she's infertile. That's a very active step. There are many others. Why one is 'artificial' and another isn't I don't understand. They bring exactly the same result and they involve specific planning and active steps based on a decision to avoid creating children. Either it is wrong to make any such decision or it is not wrong. I don't see how it could possibly be wrong. We have minds, we can think, we understand the biology involved. Should we pretend not to?