MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [civ3] Roster A

[smackster]

Too late, already in turn 1, but no problem we got it with 17 Gold and his maps.

We have more than enough rubber.

 

[AlanH]

I think that's as good as it was going to get.

 

[smackster]

1450AD

Just look around, try to avoid city disorder.

IBT Not much

T1 1455AD

reports on core cities only
Hamamatus Hospital->Army
Nagoya Factory->University (6)???
Lida Library->Cannon
Ina completes Hoover->Factory

Get RP +17 + maps for Electronics from Han
We have plenty of rubber, hooked up.

IBT

T2 1460AD

Shimoda Stock Exchange->Hospital

Turn up the slider to get Refing in 2, assume that every turn may help us. Han have only communism over us now.

T3 1465AD

Can get refining in 1 now for +1 gold, we only lost 100 to get it one earlier.

Most of the time is consumed moving worker to put rails where they don't seem to be needed.

IBT Han drop two cities in the Shimazu land before we have a change to get settlers there, the settlers are on their way and we'll squeeze them out.

T4 1470AD

Azuchi Factory->University
Kofu University->Bank
Yokkachi Hospital->Library!!!!!!!!
Suzuka Factory->Market Place
Moriyama-Ku Factory->University
Komana University->Bank
Karasu Factory->Infantry

We get refining and Han have it too. 7 turns for Steel at -15GPT

That is all for tonight

 

[Karasu]

Tough luck! Why didn't they research Steel...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I think our industrial might will start to tell soon. Infantry, artillery, strong naval units, and tanks. With Hoover's and factories we will be generating some serious shields.

Has anyone thought about a campaign strategy for the Han?

A pillaging campaign should be in there. I think we need to think about a couple of carriers full of bombers off the Beijing coast to disconnect the city. Obviously that will require flight, so it won't happen early in the war.

Should we take the same approach as last time transporting from Sagamihara or a different method? Obviously when the time comes air transport can be huge.

On invasion, should we establish one beachhead or several, Normady style?

There are always more than one way to approach a challenge like this, and I think it is fertile ground for a team discussion.

 

[smackster]

We do seem to be pumping out the factories now, so with Hoovers I think we should be able to out build Han.

I suggest two main attack zones, I don't think we should spread our troops out too much. However, I do like the idea of dumping some troops in far off regions of their land to confuse them. We certainly need a serious infrastructure distruption campaign. With Artillery we can really use the Settler trick to get them to the front and bombard in the same turn.

I think this invasion could go down in Civ infamy. We might want to write the story of this and post it as we begin.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I think our industrial might will start to tell soon. Infantry, artillery, strong naval units, and tanks. With Hoover's and factories we will be generating some serious shields.

Has anyone thought about a campaign strategy for the Han?

A pillaging campaign should be in there. I think we need to think about a couple of carriers full of bombers off the Beijing coast to disconnect the city. Obviously that will require flight, so it won't happen early in the war. Should we take the same approach as last time transporting from Sagamihara or a different method? Obviously when the time comes air transport can be huge.

On invasion, should we establish one beachhead or several, Normady style?

There are always more than one way to approach a challenge like this, and I think it is fertile ground for a team discussion.

Speed is our primary objective, not a long drawn out campaign. So we need lots of artillery, lots of tanks, lots of transports to get them there, and a short sea route so that we don't have to build multi-stage ship relays to get the troops into position.

The 1450 save shows 19 Cannon Kublai and one junk, all upgradable to transports when we get to combustion. They will give us 160 units capacity with a range of 10 ocean tiles. Of course, we may have mor by the time the invasion happens. I think Sagimihara remains our nearest port mainland to mainland, so that has to be our rallying point for the main thrust. My tile count indicates we'd be able to ship 80 units across in one turn if we pre-position ten transports in Sagimihara and the other ten in mid-ocean to relay them. Another 80 units could then be transferred two turns later. The next shortest passage between mainlands is from Utsunouiya.

Two invasion beach heads originating from these two ports, with artillery and strong infantry defence, should draw all their counter-attack in a few turns. We can then pump in tanks two turns later using the same transports, and fan out to burn their cities in short order. We need to pinpoint their oil, rubber and iron for fast cavalry pillaging operations during the initial invasion as well, maybe accompanied by a few explorers as suicide bombers. As soon as we have oil we need to see a save file to establish optimum pillaging routes.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Optimum pillaging routes.... I like it. I suppose the best defense would be infantry armies. Should we consider parking a force on top of the pillaged resource to prevent rehook up as long as possible, or perhaps a "Sherman March to the Sea" path of compleat destruction. A broad path of roadless/railless tiles in the middle of Han lands wouldn't help their war effort very much.

How many tiles is it between Samgamihara and the Korean coast? I think a transport may be able to go harbour to harbour in one turn with the differential sea movement.

 

[Karasu]

Good discussion
And good to see that we really start rolling. I only wish our tech progress were faster, but one can't have everything I guess...

Anyway, I had also been considering a detached, smaller, pillaging group to try and disconnect Beijing. The main drawback is the long route towards it, with lots of sea tiles.
But it may be worth the effort, especially if we time it well with the main attack.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
Optimum pillaging routes.... I like it. I suppose the best defense would be infantry armies. Should we consider parking a force on top of the pillaged resource to prevent rehook up as long as possible, or perhaps a "Sherman March to the Sea" path of compleat destruction. A broad path of roadless/railless tiles in the middle of Han lands wouldn't help their war effort very much.

I'm not sure we need to construct elaborate methods to prevent their recovery. My prefered approach is just to move forward, and keep moving forward too fast for the enemy to regroup and to do anything constructive. Keep them on the back foot. We should aim to overwhelm them in 10 turns, maybe?

How many tiles is it between Samgamihara and the Korean coast? I think a transport may be able to go harbour to harbour in one turn with the differential sea movement.

We discussed your optimistic theory about differential ship movement before, and I posted a map showing how it worked then for Cannon Kublai. You can't get from harbour to harbour between the continents in one turn with a single ship. Sagimahara to Kunsan, for example, needs 16 movement points. A Transport under differential movement rules has 10 movement points per turn.

The differential movement means that a Transport can move 10 tiles at a time while it is in the ocean. This is twice the speed of a standard Transport without differential movement. But it's much slower in coastal waters. It uses up 3 of its 10 movement points getting out of harbour onto the coast tile, and 2 points to get onto the sea tile. If there's only one sea tile then it's 1 point per tile across the ocean. From Sagimahara you use up all 10 movement points to get to the last ocean tile offshore from Kunsan. You need another 6 points to get into Kunsan harbour - 2 for the sea tile, 3 for the coast tile and one more to enter port. Even if we settle a new city at minimum distance from Sagimihara we only reduce the total movement points required by two ocean tiles. That's why I propose we use ship relays to get troops to the Han fast.

 

[Karasu]

BTW, if you look at SP01 ("War While Waiting"), we had a surprisingly undisturbed Cavalry army that managed to completely disconnect the Ottomans' capital there.
That's when I developed a strong liking for pillaging expeditions... :devil2:

 

[Karasu]

Hi, Alan! Posted right at the same time, I see...

I agree on the need for speed, not so much for the first strike as for any reinforcements we may need to send afterwards.

So, we could send the bulk of our troops along the shortest path, and prepare one or more raiding groups for selected targets. Timing the landings and executing the plan will be a lot of fun.
I like Smackster's feeling that this will be a great war...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Ah, yes... I remember that discussion. And yes, I remember killing the brain cell that held that information. (I need to be careful... running out of brain cells. ) Ship relays it is. I will practice tonight. The only time I've done it, I had trouble in the transfer. i.e. transferring from one ship that just moved to another ship that just moved. I wish this game had the PTW function of being able to rename units.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Karasu
Good discussion
And good to see that we really start rolling. I only wish our tech progress were faster, but one can't have everything I guess...

Anyway, I had also been considering a detached, smaller, pillaging group to try and disconnect Beijing. The main drawback is the long route towards it, with lots of sea tiles.
But it may be worth the effort, especially if we time it well with the main attack.

Here's my view of the fastest sea route to Beijing.

With four Transports you can get a pillaging army of 16 units on shore in one turn. My thoughts were of an Infantry army escorting maybe eight explorers and some cavalry. The force moves 2 tiles inland as far as the mountains west of Chengdu, and on the next turn the explorers make a suicide dash five turns to the moutains east of Beijing and each pillage on their last move. They have a range of 6 on all terrain, remember. The rest of the force then continues at a more leasurely pace, one tile at a time, pillaging as it goes. I think we could lay waste to Beijing's local economy with this group.

 

[mad-bax]

Could someone post a recent full screenshot for our lurker friends please? You haven't posted one in a long while.

Thanks.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Here's another thought since we're brainstorming a bit. We could settle a combat settler between Anyang and Chengdu. Defend the city with an infantry army and it could be a base for regular pillaging runs. IIRC, that portion of the Han lands is target rich with luxes and bonus tiles.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
Ah, yes... I remember that discussion. And yes, I remember killing the brain cell that held that information. (I need to be careful... running out of brain cells. )

Ah, yes. We've had a brain cell massacre here as well over the last couple of weeks.

Ship relays it is. I will practice tonight. The only time I've done it, I had trouble in the transfer. i.e. transferring from one ship that just moved to another ship that just moved. I wish this game had the PTW function of being able to rename units.

Yes, it's tricky. Assume we have two shiploads of troops arriving, and two ships on station ready to take the troops on board and continue their cruise. The way I do it is to move one loaded ship at a time to the rendezvous and wake all the troops in the arriving ship. Select one of the units to transfer and tell him to Load. He can only load into an empty ship, as he still occupies his place in the full one at the moment. Then tell the next unit to Load. He will have a choice of three ships. One has a single space vacated by the first guy, one has 8 because it's still empty, and the other has 7 because it contains his mate. Select the one with 7 spaces, and remember where it appears in the list of three. Now move the rest into that ship, using its list position to identify it. Move the full ship to its next destination.

There's now one empty ship at the rendezvous and another ship can move up to transfer units to it. Repeat the process, except you only have a list of two ships to handle this time when choosing the destination.

As long as you check the contents of each ship, and its movement points, before you move any ship, you can always correct any errors, as the units don't lose any movement points as they switch vessels.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by mad-bax
Could someone post a recent full screenshot for our lurker friends please? You haven't posted one in a long while.

Thanks.

OK. Here's a minimap. The Han have the entire light blue continent, which Bugs insists is Korea, confusingly. We the Oda have the rest of the world with the exception of two cities I have marked "N" - Nagasaki (Shimazu's only city, their one-tile-island capital) and "T" - New Tsingtao (Han's recent incursion on ex Shimazu-land).

I'm not sure which subset of the world map to snapshot to be of use, and it's a major exercise to stitch a complete one together.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Hey, there's a gap in on the Han peninsula!! Maybe we can get a settler over there. *crosses fingers*

 

[Sir Bugsy]

If you stand on you head or use the flip vertically function of Paint, you can kind of see Korea and Japan, with the Sea of Japan in between.

Edit: I know. Too much Where's cracker to back me up on this one?