Merge Sorcery and Summoning?

[Mewtarthio]

Sorry to run against the crowd once more, but healing should not be an option for evil guys. Caring, healing, building, preservation & restoration is good guy theme. That of bad guys is to subvert, harm, defile, destroy or steal stuff.

That still wouldn't necessarily exclude healing. In Heroes, for instance, healing is solely the province of villains, who use it to subvert the good guys (the offer to Join Me is a lot more tempting if I just restored your loved one from a debilitating condition)--plus most of them think they are helping the world (to quote a Bond villain: "Not butchers: Surgeons, cutting away the dead flesh of society").

Besides, who says the healing is the same for every religion? A Priest of Leaves might regenerate wounds; a Confessor might just cause you to ignore them; a Cultist might replace your bleeding arm with a tentacle.

 

[Nor'easter]

Well, looks like this is largely a done deal at this point. Of the spells you're eliminating, I'll definitely miss Spiritual Hammer, Meteor Swarm, and Summon Guardian Vines. I'll also have to see how much Maelstrom is being weakened. As I said before, I think the overall effect of eliminating or weakening stack-killing spells is that it will force a greater reliance on siege units -- one thing I've liked about FfH is NOT having to build stacks of suicide catapults, unlike vanilla Civ4.

I also you think you should consider making all summoned units permanent. As it stands now, summons are typically used in an emergency situation -- you encounter a large enemy stack and want to have a few extra units to defend against it or attack it the following turn.

I agree with allowing evil priests (OO and AV) to have the heal ability, Monkeyfinger's definitely right on this one. If you want to go wipe out the good guys, you need a healthy military, you don't want your soldiers weak and sick and dying before they've even seen the battlefield. So I don't think there's anything thematically wrong with this.

Finally, a word in defense of some of the spells you're keeping but aren't sure what to do with:

-- Fair Winds is one that I've actually found useful. I play Huge Fractal maps, so there's usually enough water to make the extra movement point helpful. Not a particularly powerful spell, I know, but it's only level 1. I think someone suggested making it give +2 movement with no chance of wearing off, which might get to where you want to be.

-- Dance of Blades I think you're undervaluing. You come up against a larger enemy stack and give your units an extra first strike, it gives them a chance to hold out or at least slow down the opponent.

-- Wall of Stone you could consider making permanent, by not forcing the caster to stay in the city.

That's all I've got for now.

 

[bc1]

healing is ... the province of villains ... to subvert the good guys

True villans let you think they will restore/protect loved ones but don't actually do it (eg Palpatine in Star Wars III).
Both evil & good civs want to dominate Erebus. What must change is the means, otherwise flavor suffers.

 

[Mailbox]

Besides, who says the healing is the same for every religion? A Priest of Leaves might regenerate wounds; a Confessor might just cause you to ignore them; a Cultist might replace your bleeding arm with a tentacle.

I agree with this. Honestly, it's splitting hairs to give all the religions different healing spells. The mod is absolutely stuffed full of flavor and mirroring abilities is merely a cosmetic thing that keeps the workload on the devs lower.

 

[JJR]

I agree with this. Honestly, it's splitting hairs to give all the religions different healing spells. The mod is absolutely stuffed full of flavor and mirroring abilities is merely a cosmetic thing that keeps the workload on the devs lower.

I still like the idea of having different means of healing... the good ones just heal the stack alittle while the evil ones carry slaves around to sac for the group's health (or can sac any of its units and the group is healed depending on that unit's health)

 

[sylvain5477]

There is more than just the practical to consider. You are right in saying that bad guys would find healing to be as useful as good guys. But we also consider the thematic, game balance and fun aspects of the decision.

Those that had recommended it might not fit were talking about the fact that it may not be the most thematic choice for the crazed or demon worshippers. And its hard to argue against that logic. It will probably stay for now like it is (everyone gets heal) but I wouldn't be surprised if it changes down the road.

Why not have the AV priest kill the weakest unit of the stack to heal 2*number of hitpoint of killed unit the strongest harmed unit of the stack? (theme of sacrifice)

OO priest healing could gift the healed unit with a promotion giving 1% chance par level each turn to turn barbarian (crasiness), and the level of the promotion increasing after each healing up to 5 or 10.
That way the evil guys can heal at some cost.

 

[Mewtarthio]

Would that really be any fun, though? Would you really want to micromanage your stacks, carrying around weak units so they can be sacrificed for the strong? It's easier to just abstract everything.

 

[sylvain5477]

Would that really be any fun, though? Would you really want to micromanage your stacks, carrying around weak units so they can be sacrificed for the strong? It's easier to just abstract everything.

No need to micromanage, it would simply kill the harmed units which became useless because already harmed to save the strongest which can attaque again. Weakest meant most harmed actually.

But I guess you can find a better implementation on the same theme.

 

[sylvain5477]

Well, the graft flesh spell could make a comeback for the OO's heal ability. Instead of healing a unit the priest takes several hurt units and combines them into one healthy unit. I don't agree that the "evil" clerics shouldn't heal, but if the overwhelming consensus is that they shouldn't this would be a good thematic way for them to do so.

I like this one!
graft flesh with all promotion and total of life * factor.

 

[xienwolf]

I do agree that under the new approach to magic it looks like having summons be permanent is most certainly the way to go. Then you can make the Summoner Trait double the allowable number of summons.

If that is attempted though, it would be nice to see many of the Summons gain a Unitcombat type so that they are able to gain promotions.

 

[Blackmantle]

While the Idea itself is nice and whould go very well with 3 additional Archmage-Level UUs (total not unit-types ) for magic Heavy Civs and really help to specialize their Traits / Difference between Arcane and Summoning.
(3 Tier 3 Summons normal, 6 for Arcane / adaptive / Perpentarch, 12 for Summoners, +3 for Liches / +6 for Summoners Liches.)
there whould be additions / changes needed for Host of the Einherjahr and Pit Beast summons due to losing their special abilities.


And Barbatmos would really return to his former Glory!
More fearsome then he has ever been no longer just to Civs close by (perhaps a Reason to give Summoning back to the Barbs as long as he is around. ).
Something to look forward to. I dearly miss the old one. Poor lad has been hit hard.

Fireball should be kept temporary though.

 

[Mewtarthio]

I'd vote against that, actually. It'd really screw over the Sheaim. Those guys are pretty weak until they get the Eater of Dreams, and then they're only powerful because they can summon large armies of monsters when they consume the souls of large cities. If the Eaters could only replenish depleted forces, they'd be nerfed pretty bad.

As a side note, I'm starting to think that Mutate would do better as an Overlords-only divine spell, rather than an arcane one. Move Tsunami up to tier three, give the Overlords the ability to build Krakens as a national unit, then replace the Chaos II spell with "Summon Chaos Marauder."

Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Barbatos nerfed because he could easily kill guys who started near him (particularly the AI, who didn't know to run away and settle elsewhere)? Permanent summons would just make everything worse.

 

[Zobo]

I would love to see ability to reduce a city defense from fire to earth.

Rename Wall of Stone to Stone shaping. Inside cities, add defense. Outside, reduce it.
Maybe earth summons could also have a bombardment ability.

Nature summons (treant) is very flavorful to gain bombardment as well. Isengard and Lord of the Rings, anyone?

I am a bit concerned about the removal of so many direct damage spells, and would love to see some retained, although not meteor swarms.

About not giving heals (or giving worse heals) to the evil ones, I think there is a sort of consensus the evil ones are a bit more powerful. I know not, as my FFH is a single player experience so far.

 

[Shatner]

This is an exciting shift and I think it can lead to a real refinement for an already excellent game. Good idea Dev Team! If I may, I have a few suggestions for a few spells/spheres. Overall, I think more spells should have domestic uses where possible. Or rather, there already exist a number of effective attack and summon spells that allow you to wield mighty magics to crush your enemies but aside from Mind 2, the much maligned Earth 1, Spirit 2 and Law 3 you don't have anything for your mages to do during peace time. So, here we go...

Air
Fair Winds (still a weak spell unless we can think of another function for it)
- I would like this spell to function like a nautical Inspiration spell in that it creates a building that lasts as long as the adept stays in the city and automatically offers the promotion to all visiting ships. It should also offer 1 commerce bonus to windmills within the cities radius (an improvement I generally forgo otherwise) or at the least a trade bonus for coastal cities.


Body
Haste
- if possible, allow this ability to create a temporary building to "hasten" units passing through similar to how melee units get weapon promotions. It'd lower the amount of micro so very much...
Regeneration (still a weak spell, needs to be improved)
- This ability can also be used, in town, to create a temporary building which improves health (maybe a +2 or +3) and increase healing rate so it has a non-combat use as well.
Graft Flesh


Chaos
Dance of Blades (kinda boring, anything more interesting we can do here?)
- I say keep this one. Yeah, it's boring but is simple and genuinely useful. If you really want to make it more "chaotic", have it give 2 first strike chances instead (which averages out the same as 1 guaranteed first strike)
Mutation (replaces dispel magic)
Summon Pit Beast (replaces rage)


Creation - for me this sphere should be all about boosting the builder-style gameplay. To that end, resource flexibility, production/gold increases and perhaps a source of defense
Animated Sentinel: creates a permanent, summoned golem that has the guardsman promotion and can build roads and mines. Give it a high defense value. Max one per caster.
Transmutation: gold to copper and back, iron to gemstones and back, incense to regents and back. This helps the builder to peacefully acquire missing resources and/or specialize a town for production or commerce. That and allows the incense dependent FoL and regent dependent Veil slightly more options in their resource acquisition.
Major Fabrication: creates a temporary building which increases the town's production by some percentage (50% or so) and improves the cities trade by a decent amount as well OR increases the number of trade routes. Units can be upgraded for half cost in this city. I'm borrowing inspiration from the DnD spell Fabricate which allows a wizard to produce large amounts of manufactured goods from raw materials, offering a huge industrial boon to the region.


Earth
Wall of Stone (kinda boring, maybe add an effect when it is cast outside of cities?)
- Have this spell create a fort when cast outside of the city. That's basically what it's creating in the city; besides having an adept spamming a generally unimpressive tile improvement seems suitably powered for a level 1 spell.
Stoneskin
Conjure Earth Elemental (replaces crush)


Enchantment
Enchanted Blade
Flaming Arrows
- I would like this ability to either offer a larger bonus OR allow the unit to bombard the enemy. As is, (non-elven) archers are outperformed by melee units so this spell needs to be disproportionately better to make up for it. That and allowing bombardment would make it more than just a numerical bonus to the unit while still fitting the theme.
Spellstaff
- I always felt this ability, while nice, was a little underwhelming. Maybe have the promotion also decrease the chance of a spell being resisted/increasing spell damage?


Force
Mage Armor: grants all adepts/sorcerers/archmages in the stack a withdraw chance OR energy resistance like stoneskin does (so they can run away, hide in fire or at least not suffer so much from other damaging spells).
Whirlwind (push)
Force Blade: creates an equipment (only one per caster) which increases attack strength and gives a big bonus vs melee since it ignores any armor worn by the enemy. Also acts as the blitz ability or magic resistance promotion. This equipment should never be dropped OR should be destroyed instead of picked up by an enemy to ensure the number of force swords available doesn't exceed the number of casters.


Ice
Frost: transform plains and grassland into tundra, transform tundra into snow (I think the Illians and the Doviello should be able to treat tundra as grassland and snow as plains (and maybe ice as normal coast/ocean), making this spell actually useful for them). Also, everyone wants the lands of the elves to be covered in trees, hills for the dwarves, hell terrain for the Infernals and desert for the Malakim. I think this would allow the "cold civs" to have a similar terrain difference because, let's be honest here, being able to spread terrain favorable to your race is awesome. This spell does necessitate additional changes to the Illians and Doviello to really live up to it's potential.
Summon Yeti: this unit should be the counterpart to the sandlion (make it really powerful for it's level but limit it to summons on tundra and ice)
Palace of Ice: when cast in a city it should build a temporary building that gives units built there cold protection, a big defense bonus to the city itself, act as another granary (good for preserving food) and maybe give some amount of money or happy to the city. If cast on a tundra or ice tile it should build a citadel. This is, after all, a level 3 spell and I think would synergize very well with the Illians, both mechanically and thematically
--Alternatively you could make the Ice 3 spell be Blizzard which deals cold damage to all enemies in the 3x3 or 5x5 area surrounding the caster.


Metamagic
Floating Eye
Dispel Magic
- I never found this spell very useful. Could it be made to also "blind" enemy mages like the Blinding Light spell or disallow said units to cast for a set duration?
Summon Djinn
- I like this unit but I think it should also have a random number of spells it can also cast


Spirit
Courage
Hope
Trust (probably needs to be more powerful)
- I like the idea of this offering a bonus against war wariness and/or a bonus to your great people point generation. Maybe you could make it so the enemies of a leader with Trust are always willing to talk (instead of after X turns of warfare)?


Water
Spring
Water Walking
- make the water walking promotion give the unit double movement on the water. Then it becomes a little worthier of it's 2nd level slot.
Conjure Water Elemental (replaces tsunami)


I would like to thank the Dev Team for being so open to feedback from fans. I'm really looking forward to the next version.


Concerning evil priests healing: cure disease is fine and honestly I'm fine with them having heal. However, if they have Hastor's Razor instead then they can effectively heal but do so in an evil way. Think about it: more evenly distributed damage in a stack PLUS a unit with Medic 2 or 3 = very improved recovery time.

Concerning Bombarding Treants: yeah, if Hill Giants can bombard than I'd give Treants bombard, if only so the elves don't HAVE to go with the theme-violating fire mages.

Concerning Mutate: I second it being exclusively the province of OO priests. I would also feel bad if the Chaos Marauder was removed so I like Chaos 2 being Summon Chaos Maurader and making Overlords 1 Mutate. I wouldn't feel bad if the OO High Priests could summon a Kraken and use Tsunami: both are confined to water or water-adjacent tiles which, in my opinion, counter-balances the fact that the OO High Priest could cast both.

Can the Empyrean Priests start with Sentry, Runes start with Guerilla 3 (withdraw chance and defense bonus) and Fellowship start with woodsman 3 (attack/defense bonus + heal bonus)?

 

[Mewtarthio]

While we're at it, could we possibly make Life I more powerful by making it a sort of inverse to Prophecy Mark: Granting a unit the Life I promotion reduces the AC by 1, and killing such a unit increases the AC by 1. There really aren't enough ways to lower the AC aside from just countering what the Forces of Evil do.

 

[Blackmantle]

@ Mewtarthio: I can understand that.
But possibly 18 Tier 2 / 3 summons for Sheaim (per sphere / summon even?) might be enough space to field an impressive ammount of units so that they wont be scarce on material for summoning. Even when eating the dreams of big cities
.
If summons cost upkeep, then it whould still make a lot of sense to not just summon alot long before Battle.

And i don't think 18 fully replenishable Tier 3 Summons per Tier 3 Sphere is really weak.
Perhaps that whould even be to powerfull and not to weak as you seem to think. (especially since Tier 2 whould be enhanced massively by it. Since there is no Unit-Limit at that Level.)

Also I think Sheaim will be hugely improved by change to death sphere. Disposable Skelletons en masse right out of the box is not so bad at KotE.
I reckon from 3.1 on the AI Sheaim will do really well (at least compared to other AI). As long as it gets to build some Adepts and promotes them to Death 1. (AI is fond of Combat Promos for casters so prepare for endless Str 6 Swarm in games with no Building requirements.)



Yes, Barbatmos i believe was nerfed because of something along that lines.
Has made him far less interesting. He is not much more than a Sitting Duck now. And the Number of his summons whould still be limited. He wouldnt constantly summon things.
But up to a certain Level I can understand the nerf. In sake of AI and new players.
Poor lad still. All he wanted is playing a bit. Bored by his long undead existence.

(on a side note: When the AI can't cope with the game many players complain even in mid-beta (given the Game is so impressive allredy that it hardly seems like a beta. I can see why new players might miss on that one and think its allready complete save for the AI. ).
Wenn the AI can grasp a concept really well and pull of something impressive that really makes one pause like Summon Tiger like mad, Barbatmos killing nearby civs, Avatar of Wrath wiping whole continents, Clan AI using Warrens to great effect or (sorry for the following one Kael. No pun intended ) Archeron running around and making some REAL trouble, players complain as well that it is so terrifying and game breaking / experience shattering.
Quite interesting.
I can imagine that some players will call for a lot of nerfs wenn the AI is fixed at Ice and gets to play the game even remotely right.)

The idea for Life 1 is nice as well. But perhaps that whould make AC control to easy. (Putting a limit on the reduction like with Prophecy Mark - Increase might work though)

 

[GhostQ]

The loss of Spiritual Hammer is actually sad; helps Spiritual civs a lot as Disciple units can't use metal weapons; maybe make priests receive a free Spiritual hammer promotion at lvl 3 or something?

With Meteor Shower gone the only reason I was trying to get Archmages is no more. Other Tier 3 spells are nice but they were complementing Meteor Shower, if you removed it because it was too powerful could you maybe add a Fire IV promotion for Meteor Shower? It would be really hard to destroy civs with 3 archmages now, considering summons can take 1 unit per turn no matter how powerful they are (and they can't bombard ).

 

[Monkeyfinger]

considering summons can take 1 unit per turn no matter how powerful they are

Einherjar (law 3) and Pit Fiends (chaos 3) each get an extra turn to live for each unit they kill. Both summons are staying in .31.

Shame about the bombarding though.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It might be interesting if the Evil religions heal spell also caused mutation, which could then be removed as a spell of its own.


I'd still like wall of stone to create a fort-like improvement, so it can be useful outside of cities. It would be nice if it were a temporary improvement (the way that Thaw adds temporary terrains) so ti would revert back. (I copied the thaw code for tempTerrainTyoes to work for improvements and features, but I forgot to actually test them before I made another change that broke my modmod)


I still think my dimensional spells (temporary obsidian gate equivalent, a paradropping transport summon) should be added, and of course the sphere should not be removed.

 

[onedreamer]

I don't see any reason to merge the 2. The problems are others, namely:
- too many spheres of magic
- too many incomplete spheres of magic or with choices definitely sub par with other spheres of magic.