Messerschmitt Schwalbe vs. Gloster Meteor

[stormbind]

I was always led to believe the ME-262 was superior, because it flew faster.

However, yesterday, I was told that ME-262 lacked maneuverability and were easilly shot down by RAF Spitfires or Hurricanes. The ability to fly fast - in a straight line - makes the ME-262 sound quite vulnerable in a dogfight.

* Gloster Meteor *

Gloster were charged with developing a jet fighter from the succesful pre-war E.28/39 experimental jet. By July 1942, they had built several working Gloster G.41 prototypes. The first of those to be designated Meteor flew in March 1943.

Several powerplants were used to power early models. The best was arguably inventor Frank Whittle's W2/700 turbojet (2,485lbs thrust), but they did not enter mass production and Rolls-Royce Welland (1,700lbs thrust) were used instead.

Other jet engines used in Meteors were De'Havilland, and Rolls-Royce Derwent.

Gloster Meteor Mk.1 did enter service and is probably the model that famously engaged an unmanned flying bomb. The first squadron of RAF Gloster Meteor F.III was formed in 1944.

Gloster Meteor F.III spec:
470mph
40,000ft ceiling
Rolls-Royce Welland turbojets (2,000lbs thrust)

Design varients continued to Mk.17, and the series remained in service with the RAF until the 1950s. Other nations continued to operate them twenty or more years after that.

Mk.11 through Mk.14 were night fighters. Meteors were also used to test ejecting seats. Gloster Meteor Mk.8 attained 598mph.

* Messerschmitt ME-262 *

Like the Meteor, ME-262 development sprung from pre-war experiments with jet technology and the British E.28/39.

ME-262 airframes were finished by 1942, but the BMW and Jumo powerplants were delayed until 1944. Having the mountings designed as an afterthought, for an already finished airframe, has been cited as a possible cause of premature engine fatigue. The airframe suffered mechanical problems with sticky landing gear; it had been originally designed with a wheel beneath it's tail as seen on earlier prop-planes.

Many varients were built in a short time, including regular fighter (Schwalbe/Swallow), bad-weather fighter with extra guns, bomber, 2-seat bomber, and reconaisance.

The first entered Luftwaffe service towards the end of 1944. Hitler has been blamed for it's late entry into service, but the time scale matches that of the Gloster Meteor, and analysts think a more likely cause for delay was Germany's inability to produce servicable jet-engines.

They saw action action towards the end of WW2.

ME-262 spec:
541/560 mph
36,000ft ceiling

Luftwaffe instructions were never to exceed 560mph because, depending on the individual airframe, the plane may become uncontrollable and dive back down to earth. However, prototype #12 set a jet speed record of 624 mph.

* Pilots *

Clive Gosling was one of the few pilots to actually fly both planes. For each topic, he preferred..

Speed (engines): ME-262
Critical speed (airframe): ME-262
Turning: Meteor
Pilot view: Meteor
Armaments: ME-262
Reliability: Meteor*
Range: Meteor

* Apparently, the ME-262 suffered an engine-life of just 10 to 26 hours, depending on pilot treatment. This may have been partly responsible for Hurricane successes. The Meteor's engine life was in excess of 200 hours.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I doubt that any Hurricanes shot down an ME 262, I don't think that any were in front line service that late in the war. As the preferred method of "shooting down" a 262 was to follow it back to its base and attack as it slowed down to land, I'd guess that Tempests and Typhoons were used a fair bit though.

edit: I tell a lie, I see that the Hurricane was used in Europe until late 1944.

 

[Adler17]

The Me 262. It was not so maneuverable but it could attack when in good position or avoid fighting. When fighting against piston engined planes the Me 262 was ever in advantage unless a shot hit the motor. Also most of the kills of Me 262 were when they landed. And the USAF refused a test fight with their new P 80 fighters very hard. The Me 262 is considered the best fighter until the 50s.

Adler

 

[stormbind]

Apparently, the RAF Hurricane could beat an ME-262 by giving it a "blow job"

I don't know what that means, but I think it has something to do with preying on the Messerschmitt's poor engine quality. Perhaps it is to outmaneuvre the faster plane, forcing it to flee, and in the haste the jet blows it's own engines?

Also, US Army were actually instructed to shoot ME-262 pilots still in their parachutes if they managed to bail out. The USA believed that only specially trained pilots could fly the aircraft. The USAAF also had a jet fighter, powered by clones of an earlier jet engine, but that served only in the USA (i.e. testing/training).

 

[Esckey]

I think a "blow job" was allowing the plane to pass you and then nail it as it zoomed by, I think. In a Hurri with a stall speed of like less then 100mph could do this easily, especially if the 262 was piloted by an inexpericed pilot and expecially if the Hurri was armed with 4 20mm hispanos. I can believe a spitfire out manuvering a 262, but I can't see anything else out manuvering one other then La's and various luftwaffe aircraft.


And some high hanking Luftwaff Ace who had flown both the 262 and the meteor(can't remember if it was Galland or Molders) said his ideal plane would be a 262 with the engines of a meteor.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

"Blow job" is just old slang for a jet engined plane. I'm surprised that it get's through the word filters.

 

[stormbind]

In 1945 they were painted all-white with RAF markings, so old photos aren't much to look at. I didn't know they had in-flight refueling during WW2?

 

[stormbind]

This is the ME-262. Can anyone identify the squadron, or pilot, from it's markings?

 

[pawpaw]

jg-7, nowotny

 

[stormbind]

What's JG-7?

Since I posted the others, might aswell post the plane that started it: The Gloster Whittle E.28/39 "Midget". The midget flew before WW2, in 1939 I think. The pilot sat on the engine but this design was abandoned by British, American & German engineers.

The design was given to Russia, and has direct lineage to the MiG-15.. 17.. 19.. 21 and various Sukhoi jets of those eras. A similar design was also used in the RAF Lightning, so even if the humble Midget didn't do much, it remained an inspiration for many decades.

 

[pawpaw]

What's JG-7?

1st jet fighter wing

 

[amadeus]

Neither, I'd fly the P-80.

 

[rilnator]

FW- 190 TA series

 

[Adler17]

The Me 262 was NOT used for maneuverable dogfights. Although the Me 262 was lacking maneuverability and a good long living engine, a fully functional Schwalbe was a too tough opponent for any Allied fighter. As I mentioned before it could easily avoid fightings and only accept them if in good position. However it was not the task of these fighters to attack incoming escort fighters but bombers. Also the Me 262 was the first fighter to achieve Mach 1, although this was dangerous since the plane was not build for that speed. However I read an article in Der Spiegel magazine a year ago. There an old pilot said following story:
He was attacking an Allied bomber pulk when a comrade of him had an engine damage. He was now trying to come home, but a mustang was nearing the lame duck. So the pilot made a full speed dive to shoot down the enemy to save the life of his friend. His Me 262 was nearly not manuverable when he got faster and faster. Suddenly the plane was manuverable again. He had the speed to come behind the Mustang and in the very last moment the P 51 was shot down by him. Then he landed and saw his plane severely damaged. Some nails were missing, the wing edges partly burned. It was a small wonder that he came back.
Also a British report of 1946 (!) remarks the abilities of the Me 262, in which it is said that the Schwalbe (swallow) was nearly not manuverable in very high subsonic speeds, but when reaching Mach 1 it was comletely manuverable again.
The Me 262 was lacking indeed. Nevertheless it was the best jet fighter until 1950. The British never dared to use their jet fighters against the Me 262 and also the USAF refused to do so.

Adler

 

[stormbind]

Me 262 was the first fighter to achieve Mach 1

There may be a misleading technicality in that sentence

Spitfires could attain Mach 1 in downward maneuvres. However, the high pressures caused the rear-wings to jam straight making it impossible for the pilot to pull-up! To fix that, Miles invented the all-turning tail-wing which were attached to some late Spitfire prototypes.

Gotha Komet (V-wing design) was the first plane to achieve Mach 1 in level flight. German engineers solved the jamming tail-wing problem by completely removing it. To reduce weight, it used a sled instead of undercarriage. This was a rocket plane.

Miles M.52 was the first jet designed in every detail for supersonic flight, also of WW2. It was built but never flew. An unmanned replica flew instead, and that did break the sound barrier.

ME-262 set the world speed record for a manned jet plane in level flight.

Americans took a Gotha Komet without wings, conventional straight wings, and the Miles tail wings. Stuck that together and dropped it from a moving prop-plane (because the airframe lacked an undercarriage) to break the sound barrier - but not under it's own power. Somehow, they managed to claim invention and a world record

The Me 262 was lacking indeed. Nevertheless it was the best jet fighter until 1950. The British never dared to use their jet fighters against the Me 262 and also the USAF refused to do so.

Germany was quick to deploy new weapons. They practically tested them in the field. Everything was rushed. Demonstrating how much safety and testing meant to Germany, sometimes, their weapons blew up by themselves!

Gloster G.40 and G.41 were airworthy by 1942. I'm sure if these were German, both would have been pressed into service in one form or another.

During WW2, in European airspace, jets were in so few numbers that the probability of them actually meeting was small.

As I mentioned before it could easily avoid fightings and only accept them if in good position.

Engine failure was too common. Sudden (getaway) acceleration would have made this worse. From Google readings, RAF fighters commonly encountered ME-262 trying to limp home on one engine.

 

[stormbind]

The first American jet was P-59 (1942). USAAF Major General witnessed a demonstration of the Gloster E.28/39 during a visit to England, April 1941. He was given a copy of the plans for that aircraft's powerplant. Later, a YP-59 would be traded for a Gloster Meteor.

As I had always thought, the P-80 (1944) was the second American jet. The airframe was built around de Havilland H1-B turbojet. Only two P-80 actually made it to Europe, so there's no wonder it didn't encounter ME-262!

Below: P-80

 

[privatehudson]

Meteor, I prefer reliability

 

[stormbind]

Me too. I also like a minimal turning circle, which rules the Me 262 out

I just discovered that the RAF had another WW2 jet fighter, designed in 1942 at de Havilland. Production was slow due to demand for their other aircraft (i.e. RAF Mosquito).

The resulting RAF Vampire did not fly until April 1945. It was the first jet to take off and land on a carrier (HMS Ocean, 3 December 1945). The first jet to fly across the Atlantic. Varient called the Sea Vampire was the first Royal Navy jet.

Details are sketchy:
> 500 mph
12,200 m ceiling

I may have seen it before, but had no idea it dated to WW2:

 

[Zardnaar]

ME 263 was designed as a bomber killer and not as a dogfighter. Vs other fighters the idea was to hit them fast and get out. 4 30mm cannon made short work fast of most planes. It was march 45 when they had the most ME 262's in the air at one time- something like 27.

 

[stormbind]

Then it was fundamentally flawed. Good bomber killers included the slow Beaufighter. Speed is just not that important and the most succesful bomber killers of WW2 were slow heavy fighters.

Bomber killers emphasised (1) reliability for remaining airborne and patrolling, and (2) target aquisition which in those days demanded heavy radar suits. Me 262 are ill suited to both these requirements.

Looking at the details, Me 262 were only suitable for use as unarmed light bombers, a role in which they might have used speed to avoid interceptors in hostile airspace.