Mickey Mouse Degrees

[YonatanBlum]

Pff, who needs to work? Research is what these "liberal arts" are all about.

 

[Patroklos]

Oh yeah, forgot this couldn't be let slide. I mean, I know you're an American and we're talking about the US here, so seriously? Like the whole of social conservatism today is defined by these issues, plus abortion I guess. Pro-life, for "traditional marriage," and "Christian values" are essential aspects of conservatism. If someone isn't these things, it would be really hard or requiring other extremist views to say they're not a moderate or even liberal in US parlance. If this changes your belief that engineers are conservative, then it's your problem for having really weird definitions.

These are all tags you have created in your mind so that you can argue with a figment of your imagination in your mind as opposed to entities that actually exist.

Please tell me which of the self described conservatives on this board qualify for any of those tags you mentioned.

Exactly.

 

[Merkinball]

Dude get a grip on reality, you sound like a fool. - Elta

My sig says otherwise... And you let me know when you're making the big bucks! I wish you the best of luck!

Yeah. I got that. From RPI. I even googled it and checked the minor out before responding. I'm still recovering from the shock. While that is certainly different from my days at good ole Ga Tech, I still don't think it is comparable to what you would find at a real liberal arts college with tenured profs who could teach anywhere. - Forma

Although I don't go to RPI (my sister does), it outranks Ga Tech on just every metric imaginable.

Well, I sure didn't want to write the Mark v John paper myself so I assigned it to my wife.

But I certainly could have, as did everybody else in the class. - Formaldahyde

What are you talking about? This is like my telling you to write a gigantic paper on Anna Karenina and Tolstoy's transformation into a communist during this period of his life and his impact on the novel outright... It doesn't serve to prove anything.

Because that is what they told you? Or because you have attented a liberal arts college and actually know from experience what you are talking about? - Forma

No, because my area is loaded with liberal arts colleges with tenured professors and they do nothing but produce useful idiots.

I think you should think about spicing up your rhetoric with a few qualifiers. I'm not going to suggest that every liberal arts major knows this, but... - Forma

It's called generalizations. And that was some spiffy cherry picking.

Partisan and Ideological Differences
% who are… Public Scientists
Democrat ......35 .......55
Republican .....23 ........6
Independent ...34 ......32

Ideological self-rating
Liberal ..........20 .........52
Moderate ......38 ........35
Conservative ..37 ........9

You really didn't pay a lot of attention to anything I said did you earthling? I was pretty clear on the anti-Republicanism the permeates from a good section of the scientific community. As I said, only about HALF of people in science are liberals. There is a split in the community. Moderates are people who are generally socially liberal, but economically right handed, people such as myself who do not prescribe to Republicanism.

Though I'm curious why Merk was and continued to disagree so much when he also observed in his anecdotal experience that young engineers are socially liberal, and furthermore even said that 5 out of 30 of his classmates were, as he defined, "eco-fascists." I mean, this has to be like 10x the percentage in the general population, yet leads him to conclude everone is conservative... - Earthling

Engineers do not support Obama. People in my particular college within my university by a wide margin do not support Obama. We, in general, do not support big government. We see lawyers, politicians, and regulations as nothing more than impetus working against us and our abilities. Most engineers do not agree with Obama's foreign policy, his universal healthcare program, cap and trade, raising taxes, social welfare programs, etc, etc. But at the same time engineers and most scientists reject Republicanism because of it doesn't support science, it wants science in private hands, it broadly embraces religion, it tends to promote ignorance, we disagree with many of Bush's policies on science and technology, etc etc. There are quite a few people in my degree field at school, a few students in one class in one of the many concentrations available doesn't constitute 10%. It's a small percentage of students here.

 

[Elta]

My sig says otherwise... And you let me know when you're making the big bucks! I wish you the best of luck!

Oh yes it is very foolish to study a field that you love and earn a decent living.


80 K is big enough bucks in my opinion.


If I am making 80k and my wife is making something like 80k ..... it's an absurd amount of money for a family of 4 to have. I would almost feel ashamed to make more than that.


My great uncle is a anesthesiologist and made over 400K so far this year. ..... I know because he most obnoxiously mentioned it more than 7 times at the thanksgiving dinner table (I stopped counting after that).

There isn't any doubt in my mind that I could follow the same path, but why would I do that? 80K is enough to live well.




I am going to let you in on a little secret. If I told my Great Uncle that I was going to become a Engineer and make 250K a year do you know what he would do? Laugh at me and tell me I am wasting my time, tell me that I could make damn near double that as a anesthesiologist.





Honestly, I know you think you are Mr. Super Capitalist, but not all of us are obsessed with making ass loads of money.





But I am sure making 160K over my 80 will make you twice as happy as me

 

[Formaldehyde]

Pat gets the Crystal ball award of the thread....

Nice Job Pat. Now can you pick my lotto numbers?

Ironically, those examples you listed are actually perfectly legitimate uses of the word.

 

[Earthling]

Please tell me which of the self described conservatives on this board qualify for any of those tags you mentioned.

See, this is an obvious attempt to bait me or other users into trolling. Simply put, there are numerous users who meet the description of "pro-life, pro-Christian values conservatives." However, it is inappropriate and there's no reason to name posters who have nothing to do with this thread. Again, it seems you simply have no clue what you are talking about, because pretty much everyone knows these are core tenets of millions of American conservatives; even if you guys all hate the Republican party (news to me) and the fact that these are planks in the Republican platform isn't enough, these are traits shared by self-identified conservatives anyway.

I was pretty clear on the anti-Republicanism the permeates from a good section of the scientific community. As I said, only about HALF of people in science are liberals. There is a split in the community. Moderates are people who are generally socially liberal, but economically right handed, people such as myself who do not prescribe to Republicanism.

I take this as you admitting you were mistaken. I mean, from the very start, what did I say? Moderate-to-liberal political opinions. No matter how you slice it, 9% conservative is not a majority conservative or even real "balance." If you didn't read everybody else's posts, and realize the claims being discussed were that large percentages to a majority were conservative, then you were obviously not arguing what anyone else was arguing (I don't know if you and Form and whomever thought you're arguing that scientists are like 90% Marxist or what, because no one made those claims, like I said the whole time, moderate-to-liberal), but good to have agreement now.

 

[Formaldehyde]

True. I was not trying to put words in your mouth. I simply picked another old and largely irrelevant topic. Your post had the implication that since those things are not discussed, scientific/engineering curricula are 'substandard', as if there was some sort of standard checklist of random trivia one must know to be considered an educated person....

You claim not to be putting words into my mounth, but then you go right ahead and do it anyway.

Did you miss the part where I tried to explain why I personally think it is so important to receive a liberal arts education, instead of a highly specialized one, at the bachelor degree level?

It is not just communicating effectively, although that is certainly a component. Once again, it is about learning more about other people and their cultures to compare and contrast them to you own. It is about getting a sense of how it all fits together; about how it has changed with time and what the common roots are. It is about learning how to think for yourself and how to research virtually any topic. It is about being a mensch.

Aside from the people-oriented aspect, you get that too in the sciences.

Once again, I am not claiming anything about the sciences with this particular issue, since the difference between a BA and a BS degree typically isn't all that great. My issue is with engineering, business, nursing, etc. Majors which have so much applications-oriented material to cover that the students typically do not have enough time to pursue a liberal arts education, as most other college majors typically do.

Sorry... As of right now, about three and a half. Honestly though, I am a terrible datum for your survey because I just graduated in May and have spent the majority of my time from then until about mid-October finding a job, moving to a different state, and getting settled here. So really, I've had maybe two months in which I actually have leisure time. I've got two more in the pipe, but it's holiday season, so I have less free time.

I think you understand my point though. I bet that in general engineers are not prolific readers, and I also bet the same would be true for business majors. I don't think this is a coincidence.

In all fairness, in the era of infotainment, you can't expect journalists to be rated particularly highly. I know.. it's not quite the same, but it all gets lumped into the same newsy category in a general poll like this.

Especially when you have Fox News and all the other Rupert Murdoch publications sullying the name of journalism at every opportunity.

 

[JerichoHill]

See Spence, 1973. Job Market Signaling

A degree is just a signal of quality of the worker. It doesn't actually need to impart in actual skill to have value.

Cheers

 

[Bill3000]

Please tell me which of the self described conservatives on this board qualify for any of those tags you mentioned.

Uh, MobBoss, VRWCAgent, Death_Machine, Counterclaw, Quasar1011... Elrohir before we fiftychatters corrupted him.

Not sure what you're getting at, considering that they make up a significant part of the US population which is understandably underrepresented on CFC, whether it be due to the age group or location of its US posters.

80% of self-identified conservatives are against gay marriage, 68% of self-identified conservatives want the government to "promote traditional values", 71% of self-identified conservatives are self-identified as pro-life, et cetera.

 

[RedRalph]

Uh, MobBoss, VRWCAgent, Death_Machine, Counterclaw...

Not sure what you're getting at, considering that they make up a significant part of the population which is understandably underrepresented on CFC, whether it be due to the age group or location of its US posters.

Yeah - what exactly are you strying to say here Patroklos, I must be misunderstanding you because what I think you're saying is really stupid, and you're not a stupid guy...

 

[Merkinball]

I take this as you admitting you were mistaken. I mean, from the very start, what did I say? Moderate-to-liberal political opinions. No matter how you slice it, 9% conservative is not a majority conservative or even real "balance." If you didn't read everybody else's posts, and realize the claims being discussed were that large percentages to a majority were conservative, then you were obviously not arguing what anyone else was arguing (I don't know if you and Form and whomever thought you're arguing that scientists are like 90% Marxist or what, because no one made those claims, like I said the whole time, moderate-to-liberal), but good to have agreement now. - Earthling

In a sense yes. But I explained all that yesterday. I used the word conservative extremely loosely and only did so to diverge between liberals and non-liberals. What I am getting at is that not everyone within the scientific community is behind modern liberalism and the tenants behind it.

80 K is big enough bucks in my opinion. - Elta

I know, me too. That's why I said for you to let us all know when you're pulling that down. Don't worry about me, I'm an extremely patient person.

Honestly, I know you think you are Mr. Super Capitalist, but not all of us are obsessed with making ass loads of money. - Elta

Do you think I'm obsessed with making lots of money? It may be a central and important facet in life, but I have no overt desire to become a millionaire. If it happens I won't complain or be guilt ridden, but it's not a necessary goal. My ideology is rooted in people doing what is best for them. If that is making $26,000 as a janitor than so be it. What peeves is people that go to state colleges for mickey mouse degrees that actually think they're well educated, obtaining something useful, and are going to make $80,000 within five years. You can't understand why a living wage is a bad idea economically. I can hardly see some company paying you any sort of substantial wage when you uphold a warped view of Elta-Economics. Among some of your other idiotic ideals.

 

[Earthling]

I think you understand my point though. I bet that in general engineers are not prolific readers, and I also bet the same would be true for business majors. I don't think this is a coincidence..

Yeah, this really isn't contributing to the thread. Are you just trying to insult mangxema/Merk/someone else by saying they don't read or something? I mean, you have absolutely no data on this, and I'd bet there's a world of difference between the two, regardless of the comparison to "liberal arts majors" as well, who I also think wouldn't fare as well as you think.

 

[Merkinball]

I bet that in general engineers are not prolific readers, and I also bet the same would be true for business majors. I don't think this is a coincidence. - Forma

What type of reading? My own personal reading aside, I have to read a prolific amount of material to stay up to date on emerging technologies and for my classes. Particularly with a quarter system where we cover nearly a whole text book in ten weeks...

 

[Formaldehyde]

Yeah, this really isn't contributing to the thread.

Once again, if you don't like my posts so much, either ignore them or report them for non-existent violations.

Are you just trying to insult mangxema/Merk/someone else by saying they don't read or something?

No, I am addressing a very real issue that you apparently don't even know exists.

http://www.humorwriters.org/startlingstats.html

1/3 of high school graduates never read another book for the rest of their lives.

42 percent of college graduates never read another book after college.

80 percent of U.S. families did not buy or read a book last year.

70 percent of U.S. adults have not been in a bookstore in the last five years.

57 percent of new books are not read to completion.

70 percent of books published do not earn back their advance.

70 percent of the books published do not make a profit.

Either that, or once again you have misinterpreted what I was even stating.

I mean, you have absolutely no data on this, and I'd bet there's a world of difference between the two, regardless of the comparison to "liberal arts majors" as well, who I also think wouldn't fare as well as you think.

It's hiliarious that every time our opinions diverge, and usually because you completely misinterpret my own, that you actually think you have all the "data on this" to support your own opinion, while I have "absolutely no data" to support my own opinion.

 

[Earthling]

80% of self-identified conservatives are against gay marriage, 68% of self-identified conservatives want the government to "promote traditional values", 71% of self-identified conservatives are self-identified as pro-life, et cetera.

Yeah - what exactly are you strying to say here Patroklos, I must be misunderstanding you because what I think you're saying is really stupid, and you're not a stupid guy...

See, this is an obvious attempt to bait me or other users into trolling. However, it is inappropriate and there's no reason to name posters who have nothing to do with this thread.

Hmm, I see I shouldn't have bothered with such concerns. But thanks for the links Bill. I don't think it needs to be bothered to link to Republican party statements/platforms considering the valid point is also raised that Republicans aren't the only conservatives (in fact, now that the Tea Party movement may be overtaking them to be the largest conservative group in the US ).

while I have "absolutely no data" to support my own opinion.

Edit: No, the number of books read by engineers is NOT an opinion. It's a piece of data, a fact. It may not ever be able to be fully known, but it's not an opinion. And I'm not complaining about reporting your posts or something, because mistaking anecdotes for data has never been an offense. What I am, and have been, and will continue to do is ask you to back up assertions about facts. If your opinion is "engineers don't read cool books, like Twilight ZOMG" then that's an opinion. If your "opinion" is "the number of books, journals and periodicals read by engineers is fewer than other majors" then that's not really an opinion, it's an assertion you made up. And none of that data suggests engineers read less than others, if anything it just condemns American college grads in general, if accurate (and it certainly seems numbers like 42% never reading another book are way wrong. Is posting a link to "humorwriters" with further links about "pirates" supposed to be how you test a reputable source or what?)

 

[Traitorfish]

From what I've seen of architecture (which is admittedly very little), they merely design things, while the civil engineers do the math and such to make sure that the sketches are actually doable. That is not to say that there is no overlap--it would be wise for the architect to not submit unrealistic plans and the engineers should have some sense of aesthetics--but they seem to be two separate disciplines that work closely together.

Well, not exactly. Architects still have a strong technical grounding to design a building, because that naturally entails a fully set of details, specifications, etc. and usually have a firm enough grasp on structural science to know what is and is not feasible. In most projects, the engineers job will be too fill in the gaps that architects leave, such as specifying the size of heating unit, placement of reenforcement bars in concrete, etc. Architects, to be fair to the, are trained in more than mere aesthetic; indeed, even their non-technical design training is deeper than that. While Anglospheric architects are not "engineers", they are certainly number among the technical professions.
The stereotype about "architects design it, engineers make it work" is largely a result of the greater public prominence of a certain kind of large public building, in which, admittedly, this often becomes the case, and in this case the engineers in question are more likely to be structural, rather than architectural engineers.
And, as I said, it differs from country to country- in Germany, most of the work of an architectural engineer is peformed by the architect themselves, becuase they are considered to be engineers themselves.

(If I sound defensive, it may be worth noting that I'm an architecture student, and one who's just spent all day drawing technical details. )

 

[Arwon]

God damn there's a lot of posturing and snobbery in this thread.

 

[Godwynn]

God damn there's a lot of posturing and snobbery in this thread.

Hi, my name is Godwynn and I would like to welcome you to Civilization Fanatics Center!

 

[Earthling]

God damn there's a lot of posturing and snobbery in this thread.

Wow, you're right! How could I have forgotten a classic Adult Diapers op-ed!

Spoiler Ed Schools vs. Education :

The surest, quickest way to add quality to primary and secondary education would be addition by subtraction: Close all the schools of education. Consider The Chronicle of Higher Education's recent report concerning the schools that certify America's teachers.

Many education schools discourage, even disqualify, prospective teachers who lack the correct "disposition," meaning those who do not embrace today's "progressive" political catechism. Karen Siegfried had a 3.75 grade-point average at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, but after voicing conservative views, she was told by her education professors that she lacked the "professional disposition" teachers need. She is now studying to be an aviation technician.

In 2002 the National Council for Accreditation of Teacher Education declared that a "professional disposition" is "guided by beliefs and attitudes related to values such as caring, fairness, honesty, responsibility, and social justice." Regarding that last, the Chronicle reports that the University of Alabama's College of Education proclaims itself "committed to preparing individuals to"—what? "Read, write and reason"? No, "to promote social justice, to be change agents, and to recognize individual and institutionalized racism, sexism, homophobia, and classism," and to "break silences" about those things and "develop anti-racist, anti-homophobic, anti-sexist community [sic] and alliances."

Brooklyn College, where a professor of education required her class on Language Literacy in Secondary Education to watch "Fahrenheit 9/11" before the 2004 election, says it educates teacher candidates about, among many other evils, "heterosexism." The University of Alaska Fairbanks, fluent with today's progressive patois, says that, given America's "caste-like system," teachers must be taught "how racial and cultural 'others' negotiate American school systems, and how they perform their identities." Got it?

The permeation of ed schools by politics is a consequence of the vacuity of their curricula. Concerning that, read "Why Johnny's Teacher Can't Teach" by Heather Mac Donald of the Manhattan Institute (available at city-journal.org). Today's teacher-education focus on "professional disposition" is just the latest permutation of what Mac Donald calls the education schools' "immutable dogma," which she calls "Anything But Knowledge."

The dogma has been that primary and secondary education is about "self-actualization" or "finding one's joy" or "social adjustment" or "multicultural sensitivity" or "minority empowerment." But is never about anything as banal as mere knowledge. It is about "constructing one's own knowledge" and "contextualizing knowledge," but never about knowledge of things like biology or history.


Mac Donald says "the central educational fallacy of our time," which dates from the Progressive Era of the early 20th century, is "that one can think without having anything to think about." At City College of New York a professor said that in her course Curriculum and Teaching in Elementary Education she would be "building a community, rich of talk" and "getting the students to develop the subtext of what they're doing." Although ed schools fancy themselves as surfers on the wave of the future, Mac Donald believes that teacher education "has been more unchanging than Miss Havisham. Like aging vestal virgins, today's schools lovingly guard the ancient flame of progressivism"—an egalitarianism with two related tenets.

One, says Mac Donald, is that "to accord teachers any superior role in the classroom would be to acknowledge an elite hierarchy of knowledge, possessed by some but not all." Hence, second, emphasis should be on group projects rather than individual accomplishments that are measured by tests that reveal persistent achievement gaps separating whites and Asians from other minorities.

Numerous inner-city charter and private schools are proving that the gaps can be narrowed, even closed, when rigorous pedagogy is practiced by teachers in teacher-centered classrooms where knowledge is regarded as everything. But most ed schools, celebrating "child-centered classrooms" that do not "suffocate discourses," are enemies of rigor.

The steady drizzle of depressing data continues. A new assessment of adult literacy shows a sharp decline over the last decade, with only 31 percent of college graduates able to read and extrapolate from complex material. They were supposed to learn how to read before college, but perhaps their teachers were too busy proving their "professional dispositions" by "breaking silences" as "change agents."

Fewer than half of U.S. eighth graders have math teachers who majored in math as undergraduates or graduate students or studied math for teacher certification. U.S. 12th graders recently performed below the international average for 21 countries on tests of general knowledge of math and science. But perhaps U.S. pupils excel when asked to "perform their identities."

 

[Elta]

*I know, me too. That's why I said for you to let us all know when you're pulling that down. Don't worry about me, I'm an extremely patient person.



Do you think I'm obsessed with making lots of money? It may be a central and important facet in life, but I have no overt desire to become a millionaire. If it happens I won't complain or be guilt ridden, but it's not a necessary goal. My ideology is rooted in people doing what is best for them. If that is making $26,000 as a janitor than so be it. **What peeves is people that go to state colleges for mickey mouse degrees that actually think they're well educated, obtaining something useful, and are going to make $80,000 within five years. ***You can't understand why a living wage is a bad idea economically. *****I can hardly see some company paying you any sort of substantial wage when you uphold a warped view of Elta-Economics. Among some of your other idiotic ideals.

* It is not at all unheard of for a Geographic Information Specialist. I'll let you know.

** I hope you are not talking about me, I didn't say 5 years. You seriously think state colleges are all inherently inferior to private schools I'd put up some statistics, but as I can see from this thread so far you ignore them and really on anecdotes. So I'll save it.

*** I never flat out stated that I believe a living wage minimum wage is the best route, what I said needs to be understood in the context of the thread and post it was in. I know that you are a repeating record triggered by some key words and don't actually read post, but go back and read the thread. If you would like me to open up a serious thread on the minimum wage I would be more than willing.

Exactly what are my other "other idiotic ideals". You have stated in this thread (correct me if I am wrong) that liberal arts degrees as well as any degree from a small state, state run university is useless.

Please let me know which of my beliefs are more absurd than that.

We can let the forum decide for themselves as to which beliefs are more absurd.