[Modmodmod] RFC:Europe Extra Civs

[Cetrix]

Yes, it's only astrolabe... given at the start (technology for workboat, so it's very early). And i have a commercial route to island. Very strange, i don't know what is wrong.

 

[civ_king]

I think splitting up Germany would be a good idea, but only when beta for this mod is complete

No, splitting Germany should be done in Beta, after Beta is Release Candidate which is devoted to bug fixes .


The Crimeans don't show up in the civilopaedia.

I think the Genoan UHV which requires a city in Crimea as part of it may need to be rethought because it has to have it after the Crimean Khanate shows up

 

[urban]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but there is something odd about stability. On both Bohemia and Novgorod, I've had atrocious stability, down to -17 or so, and no collapse. I don't think I would have been able to survive at all if I had to pay attention to stability, so I think this is good that there is no collapse, but maybe it needs to be recalibrated.

 

[civ_king]

The 15 turn protection for unions isn't working

1383 AD: Olaf II and IV has been enacted between Denmark and Norway!
1383 AD: Olaf II and IV has been broken!
1383 AD: Norwegian cities have declared their independence from their foreign domination!

 

[CrossRFC]

I've made a map of what the HRE area would look like if it were decomposed into various smaller nations.

 

[The Turk]

The game keeps crashing on the faction selection screen...

 

[Morholt]

I was an Emperor and all the HRE elector members are at war with me, so I was the only one who could vote. Justinian was dead for few centuries -- I think the code picked him as the first in the general list of leaders. In the cases like this the only eligible voting member should be able to vote for himself, IMO. Otherwise please see below about my idea with Pope's vote.

In short -- HRE system is an (unpolished) gem. We need something like this for regular RFCE as well. Austrias UP will help her to get elected to the Emperor.

Yep, that's a bug.

1. Rome is an Imperial City. We badly need to include Church's vote..

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think Rome was ever an Imperial City, and the Emperor and Pope were in direct opposition of each other during most of the middle ages. And the various bishoprics I consider as part of the Germany civ.

2. Vanila Vassal System and HRE system overlapping with some crazy results..

Another bug.

3. Germany is currently very strong and acting like a 2nd Reich, not like the 1st. HRE mechanics has a potential to realistically simulate decentralization of Germany. Emperor should be able to propose 2 new measures: Stopping the Wars (Peace and Truce of God) and creating defensive March or Mark -- taking from Germany some newly conquered border city and making it "peaceful" independent city..

Stopping wars within the Empire seems strange - it could completely stop the 30 years' war from happening! But perhaps stopping wars with other civs is an idea ("Inward Focus" or something), I've noticed member states tend to accumulate wars. The March is interesting, but wouldn't it feel unfair if you as a player were forced to surrender a city like that?

4. There should be no "Abstain" vote and at least 2 alternatives ("Guelph" and "Ghibelline") when voting for Emperor. If no alternative is available, i.e. Germany took over Burgundy, Lombardy, Bohemia and Austria or only 1 HRE member is eligible to vote (like in my case) -- then Germany is allowed to vote for herself and Church is voting for "virtual" Guelph Independent leader (who has no cities but still bugs Germany as elected Emperor).

Hmm, I think allowing votes for oneself when there is only one is the easier option.

Since now there's both Lombardy AND Genoa in Italy, should Germany still be required to control Lombardy and Tuscany? There are now two civs there, Genoa stocks up on mercenaries, and there are usually 2 or 3 cities in Tuscany alone (Pisa, Firenze, Ancona), not to mention Milan and Torino (if Lombardy founds it). That's alot of cities, and both Genoa and Lombardy have at least one of them each.

No, all the affected UHV's will be updated eventually. Germany's UHV should perhaps be something about maintaining Imperial Integrity.

Why does Bohemia have to control Carinthia (in Venezia)?

Ottokar II briefly conquered it. Basically that is a "recreate the greatest extent" type UHV.

Since there is alot of hatred running about in the HRE, would it be plausable to have a +1 relations boost between you and the Emperor if you voted for him. So, if I'm Bohemia and I vote that Phillip the Bold should be Emperor, and Phillip becomes Emperor, he would have +1 relations boost with me, saying something like 'You voted for me'. Just a thought.

Good idea, I'll use this.

..HRE members..

Anyone with a city in an HRE province is a voting member, anyone with their capital there is a full member. So anyone could concievably become a member. You lose membership while you're at war with the Emperor, and if your provinces are removed from the HRE while that happens, the membership is lost permanently.

I found a new bug: it appears that when I get a message that my civ has collapsed, nothing happens. This happens every time, which essentially means I never collapse.

I've seen several reports about this. Obviously one of my clever hacks were not so clever. I'll investigate.

Independents are very ineffective in representing hussites. Replacing them with Barbarians would capture the spirit of events better:

I didn't want to use Barbarians since they would be at war with everyone (Which they more or less were, but I don't want the Bohemian player to sit back and let Germany and Poland do all the work). I'll find some way tweak up their agressiveness against Bohemia.

Also, I was never been offered to become a Protestant and never collapsed even though the message said I did like 5 times. Bohemian UP was never directly experienced -- I lost troops and money because of the Emperor's measures nearly everytime and Germany never voted for me. Plus when you are at war with the current Emperor -- no elections occur. I was living almost 100 years (30 turns) without a single election and was sure I will lose the second UHV as well. Can we please have elections every 10 turns and measures every 3 turns?

The reformation is semi-random, perhaps you were just unlucky even though Bohemia has a raised chance of going Protestant. The collapsing is a bug. Bohemian UP is subtle - it reduces the amount of troops and money you send by half, and gives you double votes to vote for other people with. Elections occur no matter what but you are temporarily removed from the Empire while you are at war with the Emperor so no votes. The frequency may be increased, even though 10/3 seems a bit much. 16/8? UHV2 is hard, perhaps the only real chance is getting to Friendly with Germany.

Finally I never understood your intention behind the "raise I.I." measure -- why do we need this for a gameplay and what is the historical evidence of Imperial Diet confirming the removal of the province from the Empire?

It's a gameplay thing. It's meant to make provinces disappear from the HRE during periods of low integrity. I don't want to script the "historical" progression as the circumstances in a game might be different. The alternative would be a semi-random process.

What does low I.I. do in a first place -- Measure to raise Imperial Host passes but Emperor gets no soldiers?

He gets less soldiers, and less money and so on.

Perhaps Raise I.I. would substract 1 stability point from each members and add the sum to the I.I points? The higher is I.I. the lower is internal integrity and the strength of individual players, so they have a incentive to vote no!

This might be a cool measure.

I selected never on a proposition as Lombardy went to war with Burgundy the next turn, killed around a dozen units wiping them out and got zero credit, how can I kill those 25?

There is a bug with that UHV, for now just pretend that it works. Is it possible to kill 25 units?

As for mission 2, I'm not sure what to do. I had about 60 votes, as did Germany. Of course, I couldn't vote for my self, and no matter how friendly I was with Germany, they didn't vote for me.

It's certainly difficult. Perhaps if I add voting relationship boost that could help getting them to vote for you.

As for UHV 3, Poland, Germany and Burgundy are all much much larger, and Bohemia is technically behind them, so won't be able to defeat them. I also wonder what the justification for this UHV is. Bohemia was never (as far as I know) large. There is some small claim to Prague being a huge city, but that was because it was largely not affected by the Plague.

UHV3 is a general 30 years' war UHV. The reason it's population is partly to add some variete to all the conquest UHV's, partly because something like 50% of Germany's population died during the 30 years' war.

Which brings me to my next point: Hussites. Hot Damn. First of all, they have those wagons, which I certaintly didn't have the tech for. More importantly, they come very shortly after that Plague - I was still rebuilding each cities' first defensive unit when one flipped and went got like 15 wagons.

I'm hesitant to make any civ immune to plague, I'd rather tweak the plague dates. You should be able to get to Wagons in time, but perhaps they should be put at Gunpowder instead. Do you think the Hussites are agressive enough?

It would be much appreciated if we could have a HRE guide on the front page

Yeah, good idea.

Yes, it's only astrolabe... given at the start (technology for workboat, so it's very early). And i have a commercial route to island. Very strange, i don't know what is wrong.

This might be a bug, I'll check it out.

The Crimeans don't show up in the civilopaedia.

I think the Genoan UHV which requires a city in Crimea as part of it may need to be rethought because it has to have it after the Crimean Khanate shows up

The Civilopedia is an old bug which I thought I had fixed.

Not sure the Genoan UHV needs to be redone, there should be some space in Crimea even after the Khanate spawns.

The 15 turn protection for unions isn't working

1383 AD: Olaf II and IV has been enacted between Denmark and Norway!
1383 AD: Olaf II and IV has been broken!
1383 AD: Norwegian cities have declared their independence from their foreign domination!

Another bug, thanks.

The game keeps crashing on the faction selection screen...

Most probably you didn't install it right. It's kind of tricky so that the download is as small as possible. Remember to use Beta 12, the svn version might (will) cause trouble.

I've made a map of what the HRE area would look like if it were decomposed into various smaller nations.

OK, let me stop this debate right here: it will not happen.

Regardless of the implications of 1-city civs, every added civ increases the calculations that must be done every turn exponentially. Splitting Germany into even three or four civs would increase loading times by a lot. There's a reason why I set a cap on the number of civs, adding more would make the game very very slow.

If for some reason this mod is still going in a few years' time and everyone has a lot faster computers, and some genius hacked in multithreading into the Civ4 engine, it might be debatable. But now it's just not on the table.

 

[Tigranes]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think Rome was ever an Imperial City, and the Emperor and Pope were in direct opposition of each other during most of the middle ages. And the various bishoprics I consider as part of the Germany civ.

Rome was the city where all the non Habsburg Emperors got a crown from the Pope -- the name itself Holy Roman Empire just requires Rome to be an imperial city and Papal state -- Imperial Province. Please check all the maps of HRE at different dates (I linked it in one of the previous posts) -- all the early HREs include Rome (and even Sardinia and Corsica ). How can you have Holy Roman Empire without Rome at the beginning?

Opposition to the Emperor exactly requires the Church to have a vote -- human player of Germany would need to think how to deal with ever increasing unfriendly Church votes. If Church votes randomly between lowest score player and highest piety player -- this would represent that Church sometimes favored good Christian German kings (like Otto in a first place) and sometimes opted for a weak leader to have more pressure on him. Certainly, you would like to recreate "Guelph" and "Ghibelline" currents to represent Imperial politics properly.

Morholt -- the biggest conceptual thing missing in Civ franchise is the (real) internal politics. But in fact kings fought their nobels and even their own sons more often than they fought foreign kings. Your HRE is the first thing I see in Civ attempting to simulate this idea in the most strange of all the cases -- HRE. I can even buy the idea that civs don't vote for themselves because nobels of the civ cannot agree which of their princes can be an Emperor so they end up voting for somebody else

Finally Pope and Papal states already very inconsequential and help Germany building churches or sending gold when in fact they were bugging Emperor. Church vote will make Germany and Church two biggest voting members with interesting internal politics. Please think about it. I hope that you love diplomacy and medieval intrigues

Loosing a city to March (and there were many Marchs at the beginning) is no more unfair than to loose a city in Rhye's Congress. Human Germany player should strive to keep their votes high and build Golden Bull as soon as possible to stop this measure. Also all the HRE members must start with open borders and in contact with each other -- Genoa voted with my Bohemia, but we were not knowing each other for 2000 years.

P.S. What you think about Independent Leaders voting in HRE?

 

[Sian]

the traditional jive against HRE is that its neither Holy, Roman, nor a Empire ... all three have at different times (and sometimes even the same time) been false

 

[The Turk]

@Morholt, Thanks I was using the SVN version

Anyway, can you tell me why the Tunisians (a civilization I highly detest for being extremely unimportant), need to capture Iceland???


Also do you have plans for creating a more realistic Normandy, and 1066 and the such? Currently the English spawn in London, kind of ahistorically. Perhaps having an Anglo-Saxon minor-civ in England, with a couple pre-placed well cities, which need to be conquered by the English player, would be more interesting.


PS. Perhaps changing the HRE symbol from a lighting bolt to a crown, would be a better idea. And lastly, can you rename "Kingdom of Germany" to Holy Roman Empire now?

PPS. When is Spain added to the HRE, as shouldn't there be an alliance between the Germans/Austrians and Spanish?

 

[civ_king]

*snip*

The Genoa civ actually requires you to control Crimea which means you must take over the entire province thus kicking Crimea out of Crimea...

 

[CrossRFC]

There is a bug with that UHV, for now just pretend that it works. Is it possible to kill 25 units?

Yes, I have killed a great deal of the emperor's units, and then conquered him completely, so it is quite possible.

 

[Morholt]

Rome was the city where all the non Habsburg Emperors got a crown from the Pope -- the name itself Holy Roman Empire just requires Rome to be an imperial city and Papal state -- Imperial Province. Please check all the maps of HRE at different dates (I linked it in one of the previous posts) -- all the early HREs include Rome (and even Sardinia and Corsica ). How can you have Holy Roman Empire without Rome at the beginning?

Again, I could be wrong, but I think Rome has never been a part of the HRE. If you have any written sources on this, please share them. The maps you posted I interpret as Latium being part of the HRE with the exception of Rome and - presumably - Ravenna (the "holes"). Crowning of the Emperor took place in Aachen and Pavia or Milan, not Rome.

Opposition to the Emperor exactly requires the Church to have a vote -- human player of Germany would need to think how to deal with ever increasing unfriendly Church votes. If Church votes randomly between lowest score player and highest piety player -- this would represent that Church sometimes favored good Christian German kings (like Otto in a first place) and sometimes opted for a weak leader to have more pressure on him. Certainly, you would like to recreate "Guelph" and "Ghibelline" currents to represent Imperial politics properly.

Hmm.. you make a fair point, but I'm still against the Papal states being directly involved. But perhaps there could be an abstract "church" vote.

Also all the HRE members must start with open borders and in contact with each other -- Genoa voted with my Bohemia, but we were not knowing each other for 2000 years.

P.S. What you think about Independent Leaders voting in HRE?

Open borders comes with the open borders motion. I'll put in automatic contact though. Independent votes should be doable.

Anyway, can you tell me why the Tunisians (a civilization I highly detest for being extremely unimportant), need to capture Iceland???

Iceland was raided by Barbary pirates in the 17th century. Originally the UHV was going to be something like "raze a city in" but conquest was easier to code. I might replace it with razing at some point.

Also do you have plans for creating a more realistic Normandy, and 1066 and the such? Currently the English spawn in London, kind of ahistorically. Perhaps having an Anglo-Saxon minor-civ in England, with a couple pre-placed well cities, which need to be conquered by the English player, would be more interesting.

I don't think the AI would be able to handle that, it is notoriously poor at sea transports. It might be possible to create an alternative spawn for the human player if that seems like a cool idea, I'm not sure it would make so much difference in the long run though.

PS. Perhaps changing the HRE symbol from a lighting bolt to a crown, would be a better idea. And lastly, can you rename "Kingdom of Germany" to Holy Roman Empire now?

The lightning bolt is a placeholder, it will be changed. "Holy Roman Empire" is now the entire organization involving Germany, Bohemia, Austria, Lombardy... "Kingdom of Germany" is the best name for the German part of the HRE in my opinion. I guess it could be called something like "German States" or such but that sounds a bit silly.

PPS. When is Spain added to the HRE, as shouldn't there be an alliance between the Germans/Austrians and Spanish?

Spain was never and never will be a part of the HRE. One Spanish king was also Emperor, but Spain was not part of the HRE.

The Genoa civ actually requires you to control Crimea which means you must take over the entire province thus kicking Crimea out of Crimea...

I'll change it then.

 

[civ_king]

If there is an Austrian SPanish fusion then Spain gets to be in the HRE because they control an HRE province right?

 

[CrossRFC]

Civ_king: only if they moved their capital to an HRE province (so if Spain leads the union, no, but if Austria does, then yes. However I don't think there is a Spain-Austria Union, is there?).

 

[Tigranes]

Again, I could be wrong, but I think Rome has never been a part of the HRE. If you have any written sources on this, please share them. The maps you posted I interpret as Latium being part of the HRE with the exception of Rome and - presumably - Ravenna (the "holes"). Crowning of the Emperor took place in Aachen and Pavia or Milan, not Rome.


Hmm.. you make a fair point, but I'm still against the Papal states being directly involved. But perhaps there could be an abstract "church" vote.

Yes! Church vote, not the Papal State vote, I never wanted Papal State to have a vote in HRE, just the Church vote which most of the time followed the instruction of the Pope (as a leader of Catholic Church, not as a leader of Papal States Civ.) So it is settled then?

The following quote is only for the sake of public education

Over several campaigns in the mid-tenth century, the German ruler Otto I conquered northern Italy; Pope John XII crowned him emperor (the first so crowned in more than forty years), and the two of them ratified the Diploma Ottonianum, which guaranteed the independence of the Papal States. Yet over the next two centuries, Popes and Emperors squabbled over a variety of issues, and the German rulers routinely treated the Papal States as part of their realms on those occasions when they projected power into Italy. A major motivation for the Gregorian Reform was to free the administration of the Papal States from imperial interference, and after the extirpation of the Hohenstaufen dynasty, the German emperors rarely interfered in Italian affairs. By 1300, the Papal States, along with the rest of the Italian principalities, were effectively independent.

As you see, we both were kind of right


Aachen and others were places when you get crowned as a king by Archbishop. Before the era of Maximilian, who could not make it to Rome, all the Imperial coronations took place in Rome. Again, I bring this here as a historical fact, nothing to do with the modmod.

P.S. I am playing as a Germany now -- and finally understood why there is an "Abstain" option: German human player would never be an Emperor otherwise

 

[Bonci]

This discussion about papal influence over the election of the HR emperor led me to think that in general the papal power is quite under represented in this modmod.
I think that there should be more bonuses if you are a devout papal follower and more problems if you aren't.
For example: what about give the pope the ability to excommunicate every X turns one of the 3 civs with less faith points? Excommunication could mean a loss of stability and the declaration of war of a random number of the most pious civs. Maybe the leader with the most fp could be asked if he wants to influence this decision by paying something (gold or faith points?)

I know that this is quite external to the scope of this modmod but I'm only brainstorming about the topics that you are discussing atm

 

[Sian]

if, then there should be a certain grace period, or else there would be less reason to become Catholic if you aren't getting it near instantly

 

[civ_king]

Could we have an urban combat line of promotions? perhaps with a 10/15/20 progression and gives that much to both attack and defense for cities. the first promotion would also have 1 first strike to entice someone to pick it up. In addition to this perhaps villages and town should act like cities for combat since they really are miniature cities.

 

[ComradeStalin]

Hey Morholt!

First of all, great modmodmod you've created here, it's really quite fun to play RFCE with all these extra civs. On that note, there are some major things that I noticed are difficult to get around.

First, I've compiled a list of civilizations I've noticed are rather strong or simply don't collapse within the usual times
-Ottomans. They never collapse, they have 3 times the army of every other civilization put together by the 1700s, and they roll everyone they declare war on.
-Germany. For reasons stated by previous posters, I need not detail further.
-Burgundy. For some reason, in this patch and the last one, I've noticed early Burgundy-French wars which end in France losing so badly they are out of the game, or them collapsing.
-Spain. This isn't really Spain being bad, its about Cordoba and Portugal. I've noticed in the past 4 games Spain has vassaled Cordoba and then declared war on Portugal upon it spawning, which is quite unhistorical.
-Everything around Poland. Poland tends to get nom'd by every single civilization within staring distance in quite a few games. Doesn't help that they have such a large diplo debuff against the usually powerful Germans. While I'm on the subject, Lithuania usually goes down pretty fast too from a war against the Prussians, and its not like anyone will rush to their aid, being heathens and all.

Apart from this, I've noticed a bug while I was playing Norway which forced me to restart the game, where the North American Access disappeared somewhere between 1000-1100 AD. Upon world buildering it back in, it did not give me the option to continue construction of Vinland.

Apart apart from this, I had a bug while I was playing as Germany and I was the HRE Emperor, where Burgundy declared war on me, whereupon both my vassals informed me they were out to get me and the entire HRE declared war on their beloved emperor. How dare them. After going back a few autosaves, I figured out the only way I could prevent it was to create a peace treaty by asking them to change civics the turn before, which completely prevented the event.

Apart apart apart from this, Bohemia as the AI seems incredibly weak. Upon spawning, both times I have playing this new patch, Bohemia has been auto at war with Poland, along with the HRE emperor (Cough Germany cough). This, both times has lead to the fall of Poland and Bohemia peace vassaling to Germany. I have also noticed, that when Bohemia spawns it does not flip the entire province of Bohemia, therefore Germany can settle inside the province as the HRE king, and block the first objective with impunity.

All really in the end minor complaints though, things that need to be ironed out. Great mod, tons of fun.