Monarchists' Cookbook I

[Winston Hughes]

If you want to see ToA + TGH in action and how powerful it can be I recommend checking out one of Aelf's earlier EMC games, pretty sure it was the Roosevelt one...

That was on Warlords, though. Hasn't the ToA been severely weakened by the new trade system?

 

[Bleys]

Once Diamond plays his round, will we be discussing the various saves and plans openly, without Spoilers?

My thoughts on the Wonder Spam Plan:

Spoiler :

I would love to get all 3 (4 including Oracle), I prioritize them as follows:

Most important = GLH. Its just the bomb, especially on maps like this where we are either M & S or Arch. 95% of all cities will be coastal, and I can see myself colonizing many little islands to suck up resources or as jump-points for later invasions.

Next important = Colossus. We are going to be forced to work a lot of water tiles, just because. With a LH and Colossus, they become food neutral 3C tiles (coastal, anyway), which is darn solid, especially on a low-commerce map which is what this is shaping up to be.

Least important = ToA. Dont get me wrong, I love this Wonder, and I will try to build it in the Capitol right after GLH. Another reason for hooking up the Marble ASAP, IMHO. With no forests to pump into it, the Marble is going to be important. Monarch AIs tend to build the GLH before ToA though. Hard to say, really, but NOT getting this one wouldnt hurt as much as missing GLH. Colossus can wait til 3rd built though, it is usually pretty late, as the AIs rarely prioritize MC, while I almost always take it from the Oracle these days, just because I love Forges, especially with IND civ's.

As far as the timing, I think we can get all 4 wonders in 2 or 3 cities. We need to colonize that marble island ASAP, and perhaps even make sure marble is in first ring. Given the slow growth of that city, whipping a Monument, then waiting for a border pop may be too long. I think the first settler should do just that, marble first-ring, and get busy on the Oracle down there, even with the slow growth. GLH and ToA in Cap, maybe even Colossus as the border should pop the Copper by then. Post forge, the Colossus with Copper is less than 10 turns to build, even on Epic speed. If we can get 3 GM-Wonders in the Cap, it would be a GM farm to the extreme, to the point where we may want to consider another city for Science and the GLibrary.

 

[futurehermit]

That was on Warlords, though. Hasn't the ToA been severely weakened by the new trade system?

I wasn't aware that was the case. In what way do you think it has been weakened?

@Bleys:

Spoiler :

In my experience I find that the ToA goes before the GLH in I would say 90% of my games and I play a lot of starts and don't play them through til the end. I think if we want to get the ToA there is no way we can get the marble hooked up in time. That's why I gunned for it first. If we are going to lose a wonder I would rather lose the oracle than any of the other three. It's only a free tech, which is great, but not the be-all-and-end-all. The thing about the ToA is that it gives SUPERB gpp in addition to the trade route bonus and is the cornerstone of my plan for a combined wonder/gpp and trade-route economy. I don't plan on making any cottages at all but instead would HIGHLY suggest workshopping all of our flatland. Production is going to be a huge issue on this map.

 

[Nares]

@Bleys

Spoiler :

My thoughts on the Wonder Spam Plan:

Are all of you planning on wonder spamming through the ancient and classical eras?

 

[Diamondeye]

Oww, sorrys to keep everyone waiting ... I will try to hurry up tomorrow (reason I can write here yet not play is that my parents are divorced and at my mom, my only internet connection is on her laptop for work, and Civ is not included in that category ).

@OTAKU: I tend to completely ignore ToA, but AFAIK, Oracle always fall first, then ToA, and lastly, Colussus, which only the german AI tend to build, or other Inds with coastal starts. Chinese falls into mind with their mach beeline.

 

[siggboy]

It has been mentioned already: while the TGL+ToA combination is strong, one can partly compensate for missing ToA by sending a Great Merchant there. In any case, the Temple of Artemis is a lot better than the Colossus in my eyes. While we will end up working quite a few water tiles, the Colossus only adds 1 commerce per tile worked, and this is easily matched by the ToA bonus after the inital exploration phase is over.

In my experience, the Great Lighthouse falls really quickly on Monarch, so if you want it it should definitely be built before ToA.

I think both Oracle and ToA are totally doable, even if the Great Lighthouse comes first.

 

[Winston Hughes]

To aid comparison, I've compiled some statistics from the save games posted thus far.

Spoiler :

Everyone has Fishing, The Wheel, Hunting, Mining and Bronze Working, so these are not listed. Forests refers to the number of unchopped forests remaining in the currently workable area. 'South Island' refers to the island south of Marble Island - everyone who has explored here has also explored Marble Island.

Bleys
Cities: 1
Population: 5
Units: 2 warriors, worker, scout, galley
Improvements: 3 clams, 2 mines, 2 roads
Buildings: Lighthouse
Techs: Sailing, Mysticism, Masonry
Research: 17bpt at 100%
Gold: 39 (0gpt)
Religion: None
Forests: 2
Exploration: South Island
On the way: Pottery (3 turns), Settler (8 turns)

slobberinbear
Cities: 2 (Hamburg 1E of copper)
Population: 4 (3+1)
Units: 2 warriors, worker, galley, scout
Improvements: 2 clams, 2 mines, 2 roads
Buildings: None
Techs: Sailing, Pottery
Research: 15bpt at 90%
Gold: 0 (0gpt)
Religion: None
Forests: 2
Exploration: South island and southern Arab coast
On the way: Writing (1 turn), Granary (Berlin, 4 turns), Barracks (Hamburg, 66 turns)

Solon
Cities: 1
Population: 2
Units: worker, scout, galley, settler
Improvements: 2 clams, 1 farm, 3 roads, 2 mines (+2 bonus on one of them)
Buildings: Barracks, Lighthouse
Techs: Sailing, Pottery, Agriculture
Research: 13bpt at 100%
Gold: 0 (0gpt)
Religion: None
Forests: 3
Exploration: South island, southern Arab coast
On the way: Mysticism (1 turn), warrior (1 turn)

Vale
Cities: 2 (Hamburg 2E of copper)
Population: 5 (4+1)
Units: worker, scout, warrior
Improvements: 3 clams, 2 mines, 2 roads
Buildings: None
Techs: Sailing, Pottery, Mysticism
Research: 19bpt at 100%
Gold: 88 (-2gpt)
Religion: Hinduism in Hamburg (state religion)
Forests: 5
Exploration: Home island only
On the way: Writing (4 turns), Lighthouse (Berlin, 13 turns), Lighthouse (Hamburg, 13 turns)

Nares 2100bc
Cities: 1
Population: 2
Units: worker, scout, warrior, settler
Improvements: 3 clams
Buildings: none
Techs: Sailing, Animal Husbandry, Mysticism, Masonry
Research: 13bpt at 100%
Gold: 0 (0gpt)
Religion: Hinduism in Berlin (state religion)
Forests: 5
Exploration: Home island only
On the way: Pottery (5 turns), Lighthouse (15 turns)

r_rolo
Cities: 1
Population: 5
Units: 2 scouts, worker, warrior, galley
Improvements: 2 clams, 1 mine
Buildings: Lighthouse
Techs: Sailing, Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood
Research: 16bpt at 100%
Gold: 0 (0gpt)
Religion: Hinduism in Berlin
Forests: 4
Exploration: Marble island
On the way: Pottery (9 turns), Settler (8 turns)

futurehermit
Cities: 1
Population: 5
Units: 2 scouts, worker, warrior
Improvements: 2 clams, 2 mines
Buildings: None
Techs: Pottery, Mysticism, Polytheism, Priesthood
Research: 15bpt at 100%
Gold: 0 (0gpt)
Religion: None
Forests: 2
Exploration: Marble island
On the way: Sailing (12 turns), Temple of Artemis (16 turns)

Winston
Cities: 2 (Hamburg 3SE of Berlin)
Population: 6 (5+1)
Units: worker, warrior, scout, galley
Improvements: 3 clams, 1 mine
Buildings: None
Techs: Sailing, Pottery, Agriculture, Archery
Research: 22bpt at 100%
Gold: 22 (-2gpt)
Religion: Hinduism in Berlin
Forests: 3
Exploration: Marble island
On the way: Mysticism (1 turn), warrior (Hamburg, 3 turns), worker (Berlin, 7 turns)

OTAKU
Cities: 1
Population: 5
Units: warrior, worker, scout
Improvements: 2 clams, 2 mines
Buildings: Lighthouse
Techs: Sailing, Pottery, Masonry
Research: 15bpt at 100%
Gold: 37 (0gpt)
Religion: None
Forests: 2
Exploration: Home Island only
On the way: Agriculture (3 turns), Great Lighthouse (3 turns)

v8mark
Cities: 2 (Hamburg 3SE of Berlin)
Population: 3 (2+1)
Units: 2 workers, galley, scout
Improvements: 3 clams, 3 mines
Buildings: None
Techs: Sailing, Agriculture, Masonry
Research: 17bpt at 90%
Gold: 0 (0gpt)
Religion: None
Forests: 2
Exploration: Marble Island
On the way: Pottery (2 turns), Lighthouse (Berlin, 75 turns), Barracks (Hamburg, 35 turns)

And, yes, I do have too much time on my hands.

I wasn't aware that was the case. In what way do you think it has been weakened?

I'm not sure exactly how the trade route mechanics were changed, but I don't seem to get as much from the routes as I used to. And I'm sure I heard someone say that the ToA had been weakened by the changes. Again, on the few occasions I've grabbed it in BtS, I haven't such spectacular results as before. I could be wrong though - I'll have a look later on and see if I can find out for sure.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

And, yes, I do have too much time on my hands.

And yet missing is mine.

 

[Winston Hughes]

And yet missing is mine.

I couldn't see yours. I checked twice. Where is it?

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I couldn't see yours. I checked twice. Where is it?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6760742&postcount=19

I wasn't aware that was the case. In what way do you think it has been weakened?

I think pre-BtS, the ToA's +100% was applied at the end of all previous calculations (such as size, overseas, foreign, etc) ... in BtS, it is applied alongside other +% modifiers.

In my experience I find that the ToA goes before the GLH in I would say 90% of my games ...

For comparison (and to satiate my own unbridled curiosity), I looked back on the last 4 games I played at Standard/Monarch/Epic and ALC 17 & 18, and these were the dates the various early wonders fell on:

		Game 1	Game 2	Game 3	Game 4	ALC17	ALC18	'Avg'	'Order'
Stonehenge:	2050BC	1350BC	2275BC	1525BC	1325BC	1775BC	1716BC	(1)
Great Wall:	1700BC	1475BC	1000BC	1375BC	1350BC	485BC	1230BC	(2)
Oracle:		1375BC	800BC	1000BC	1100BC	550BC	1050BC	979BC	(3)
GLH:		1050BC	1000BC	485BC	125BC	525BC	155BC	556BC	(4)
ToA:		410BC	335BC	1060AD	365BC	670AD	700BC	13BC	(5)
Colossus:	140BC	175AD	685AD	685AD	155BC	1000AD	375AD	(7)
Pyramids:	35BC	100AD	490AD	625BC	5BC	640AD	94AD	(6)

 

[vale]

I wasn't aware that was the case. In what way do you think it has been weakened?

IIRC, the BTS ai doesn't grow it's cities quite as large as the Warlords ai. So TOA is less lucrative because you are trading with generally smaller cities.

 

[ranion]

the different approaches to this game are fascinating, I'm especially intrigued by where people are dotmapping their second, third, and so on cities. I'd post my save and log except that i didn't keep very good track of exactly what i did so it wouldn't be overly educational for any of us. (if you want, i can post it and some screenies anyways to give an idea of what i did and where i'm going with it but...)

to comment on the structure of this scenario, do you really want to take the 'best game' from this round? some of the strategies are quite divergent and it'll be very hard to judge who is in the 'best' position at this point because we don't know enough about the world at large to know who is in a good position.

@ otaku's questions

1) i notice the GLH drop earlier on watery maps like M&S or arch than it does on say a continents or pangea map where often it will still be up quite late in the game due to its limited usefulness, something is probably coded into the ai that shifts the priority of the GLH up when there is a high probability of there being many costal cities for great benefit.

2) the GLH hands down is going to be the most important early game wonder going, once borders open with the neighbors, and you start getting 4 or more cities those extra two traderoutes + the one from commerce mean that each new city is generating at LEAST 4 commerce the second its placed, possibly 8 if they're settled on a different land mass from the rest of your cities, which in this game is going to be pretty much always the case.

my thoughts on the game at hand..

Spoiler :

first, PRODUCTION!! there is room for alot of early production in our little corner of the world, and since production is something that tends to be a bit lacking on watery maps we should leverage this. marble + industrious + production means wonders, and lots of them, potentially from multiple sites.

second, i see alot of people (with the exception of nares) attempting to minimize overlap on city sites? why? aside from Berlin, and possibly a city that capitalizes those floodplains we aren't going to see most of these cities ever reach a size where the overlap is going to be a problem, infact its quite the opposite, overlap to claim extra food or production is a good thing, we want to maximize the use of our land, not sacrifice land for ocean

finally, we should all settle that marble island asap, and get some further scouting in, of the reports that have come in only one has met a civ other than saladin, lets find out who is out there, and where they are... so far the list is:
Saladin
Joao II

 

[slobberinbear]

		Game 1	Game 2	Game 3	Game 4	ALC17	ALC18	'Avg'	'Order'
Stonehenge:	2050BC	1350BC	2275BC	1525BC	1325BC	1775BC	1716BC	(1)
Great Wall:	1700BC	1475BC	1000BC	1375BC	1350BC	485BC	1230BC	(2)
Oracle:		1375BC	800BC	1000BC	1100BC	550BC	1050BC	979BC	(3)
GLH:		1050BC	1000BC	485BC	125BC	525BC	155BC	556BC	(4)
ToA:		410BC	335BC	1060AD	365BC	670AD	700BC	13BC	(5)
Colossus:	140BC	175AD	685AD	685AD	155BC	1000AD	375AD	(7)
Pyramids:	35BC	100AD	490AD	625BC	5BC	640AD	94AD	(6)

What great data this is. I had a feeling for it and this confirms my suspicions. Some games, the Colossus and Pyramids aren't built until the late first millenia A.D. Great stuff.

Spoiler :

I'm curious what the consensus 'best' round will be. It will come down to whether the group wants to fight Saladin, IMO.

 

[r_rolo1]

@slobberinbear

Spoiler :

Than you can't count with me for a while .... Saladin is Pro, has a holy city ( that is his capital, most surely ) and he's in another island . too much spending for small revenue at least until Construction.

IMHO next round should be of wonder construction. First war should be far later.

 

[slobberinbear]

@slobberinbear

Spoiler :

Than you can't count with me for a while .... Saladin is Pro, has a holy city ( that is his capital, most surely ) and he's in another island . too much spending for small revenue at least until Construction.

IMHO next round should be of wonder construction. First war should be far later.

Spoiler :

You may be correct. If the group goes with a wonder/expansion strategy, I'll shadow the game trying to kill Saladin, and we'll see where that ends up.

I would sure like to take his holy city and open up some avenues for expansion and exploration, though. After you lay down three or four more cities, Saladin will have blocked Germany in, at least until Astronomy.

 

[Bleys]

Interesting analysis by both Winston and OTAK.

I would love to do about 25 random starts, random leaders, random maps, and not build a single wonder myself, and see when they fall. I bet that sort of data could be pretty useful.

Some spoiler comments/ideas:

Spoiler :

I am thinking about settling a city right ON the marble. That would instantly hook it up in Berlin. I think that would allow us to bang out both the GLH and ToA in Berlin, while building the Oracle in that marble city. Thats not a horrid spot, still no food, but no need to build a quarry or wait for any border pops to have it working for us ASAP.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

EDIT: I'm not sure why we're posting everything in spoiler tags. It's really only the reports that need to remain hidden until a best ball is chosen ... I don't see any need to 'spoiler' every post. Refar's right; it only makes it difficult to discuss everything. Anybody who hasn't played the 1st round (or subsequent rounds later) will simply need to remind themselves to stay away from the thread until after they've played the round!

I'm curious what the consensus 'best' round will be. It will come down to whether the group wants to fight Saladin, IMO.

I think fighting is out of the question ... low production versus a Protective leader on a water map ... GG.

I'm starting to wonder now if Bleys was right wanting to make the first round 4000 BC - 1 AD. I think we all have solid starts, and since it appears we have another 1000 years before the 'real'
Wonders start dropping, we might all finish in the same spot just by getting there in different orders. IDK.

--------

I am thinking about settling a city right ON the marble. That would instantly hook it up in Berlin. I think that would allow us to bang out both the GLH and ToA in Berlin, while building the Oracle in that marble city. Thats not a horrid spot, still no food, but no need to build a quarry or wait for any border pops to have it working for us ASAP.

Technically, I don't 'know' about that Marble since I never scouted there in my version ... but ...

... settling on the Marble is definitely the best route. There is no food over there, so settling on Plains Marble means an extra +1 on the city tile without any loss of food -- something we'll find uber useful!

 

[Winston Hughes]

@OTAKUjbski

I must be losing my mind, but I stiill don't see a savegame.

 

[Jerrymander]

Hey Winston, it's in jbski's first post in the topic, second reply.
But here is the link:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=175320&d=1209136356


Edit: Rereading your post, I see that jbski did not post a savegame. I am mistaken.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

@OTAKUjbski

I must be losing my mind, but I stiill don't see a savegame.

Hey Winston, it's in jbski's first post in the topic, second reply.
But here is the link:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=175320&d=1209136356


Edit: Rereading your post, I see that jbski did not post a savegame. I am mistaken.

I am sofa king we todd did.

translation: i am sofa king we todd did.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=175524&d=1209265580