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Most powerful strat

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Strategy & Tips' started by Ecofarm, Apr 15, 2008.

  1. daladinn

    daladinn Prince

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    sadly you can no longer call the sheaim a late game civ.

    giving them death mana in their palace all of the adepts can now summon skeles right out of the box. these move right into conjurors and their specters very quickly. then eventually to wraiths and such.
     
  2. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    and how are they going to save you from Saverous and the Drown ?

    Saverous kills anything his fodder (drown) weaken. Including the Assassin.
    Not to mention that your tech path does not guarantee in any way you will have Poison before the player that researches Octopus.
     
  3. Ecofarm

    Ecofarm Deity

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    Sav isn't killing a damn thing after Alaz's Illusion hits him, and you have no heal or bombard. I have hunter 4s (5 attack) and assassins (6 attack?), fully fortified and in city and I have a hawk to see you coming from a mile away. I'm not scared of drowns, especially after they spend 5 turns walking to my city (assuming I don't hit you before you enter borders) while Alaz's illusion and assassins destroy them. Buy the time your 1 move units get to me, you won't be in position to do anything.
    Tech path depends on opponent; I cottage spam in forests (non-forest rivers first if I think I have a critical early tech race on my hands).

    I'll be on hamachi this week sometime, perhaps we can test it then (or we can contact via #erebus). Anyway, I'll get a friend to run that strat against me and see how it goes. Maybe Sav + drowns are unstoppable but I think if anything can, it's Svalt edu -> mystic -> poisons. I'd like to grab FoL, but I'm not sure how early drowns will be - that kinda depends on which civ you use (and I might not have the happiness to work ancient forests till later anyway). If I pick up a happiness or 2 from hunting, I'll probably go for the ancients (again, depending on how early drowns are).
     
  4. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    you haven't changed from what I remember... and who on earth decreed that the Illusion will strike first ?

    me ? You mean the player with Saverous ? Why should I need "bombards" or even heal ?

    well, dream on. Following your "rules of imaginary engagement", I'm coming with 100 Drown. And I have hawks too. And what about if I come from the sea, would that spice up your dream a bit ?

    this is not in your strategy post, you're breaking my rules of engagement, sorry :)

    And ? I do that too.

    hmmkay.
     
  5. Ecofarm

    Ecofarm Deity

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    You are attacking me with 1 move units, I'm in my culture with 2 move units. I can move Alaz forward, cast illusion, move alaz back into ciy, and hit you from very far away. My hawk will ensure this.
    Because I have 4's fortified behind culture, and you are going to be very beat-up after the long walk to my city with 1 move units while my illusion takes a kill or grieviously wounds a unit every turn.
    That's productive. :goodjob: You get 100 units, your techs, and my techs. Sounds about right. :crazyeye:

    Of course coming from the water would be a problem, but now you are cherry picking a religion, a unit, and a map that you think can help you win. Perhaps we should give you a far superior starting position as well, just to take it the full monte.
    Tech flexability is indeed part of the strat, look back a few posts and you will see the specific outline of needed techs and possible deviations. A strat with a set-in-stone tech path would, of course, be easy to destroy by choosing the right opponent.

    We can leave this at: you think drowns + sav is a more powerful strat. Fine with me. I've no problem disagreeing and circumstances would certainly play a large roll, so, who knows?
     
  6. Arctic Circle

    Arctic Circle Prince

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    Well, for me rush almost never works on those humans I play with unless they had bad luck in the start, because they bolt down quickly. 5+ warriors + pallisade. My biggest problem is my Wife constantly going Luichurp, RoK, Construction, Mathematics, Currency. She is protected by walls, Mercenaries and Soilders of Kilmorph (often with bronze weapons) -very- early, then she builds an insane economy and before I can shift any effective army into gear a horde of 20, 40 or even 60 iron golems with fireball-throwing ability comes a-marching towards me. :cry:

    She can afford to sit with 10+ top military units in every city and research on 90% due to the financial strategy. So I would almost say that being able to get a huge income without giving up much research allows you do drown any opponent in units.

    I must say however, that a religion based aggressive strategy on either RoK or VfD are fast and good. Bambur is really good, all melee gets +20% and while you can't drown your men you can buy a Soilder of Kilmorph every turn in every city. If you have the coins.
     
  7. Blackmantle

    Blackmantle King

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    @ Ecofarm: Btw. Drown and other non-living Units (Including Saverous) should by Design be immune to Alazkans Mirror and other illusions in defense if im not utterly wrong (shouldnt even be able to attack a stack without living Targets). Thats the "disatvantage" to illusions. (Can be an advantage against Luchirp golems and their Repair-Crew of Adepts or Illusionists / Puppeteers and their summons though for bypassing the Golems / Summons. But that advantage seems rather small for Assasins and other Marksmen-Illusions should they exist.)

    If thats not the case it might be time for a bug-report. ;)

    Not to comment on the rest of the strat or competitive multiplayer strats, that should count at least a bit in that discussion here.
     
  8. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    Location! Location!
  9. Blackmantle

    Blackmantle King

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    Sure this hasn't been different one time or the other? Or at least planned / intended? I thought i read that somewhere.
    If not, sorry for making wrong statements...
     
  10. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    In .25 we were told that Illusions would eventually treat non-living units as if they were not there, but that until Shadow it would be graphical only. Then Shadow came, and Illusions did not change. I'm not sure if the idea has been abandoned, forgotten, or if it will just have to wait until .32 (or later).
     
  11. Blackmantle

    Blackmantle King

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    Ah, ok, so a little nerf for Alaskan is allready somewhat in store possibly.

    Thanks for putting it right MC. :)
     
  12. ophite

    ophite Chieftain

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    By Saverous/Drown, here's what I mean:

    Start Hannah/Lanun; tech Fishing. Send Scout out to look for techs, build a warrior then a worker. The worker should come out as Fishing finishes teching; immediately pop him for a Pirate Cove. If you've got sea resources, build a fishing boat; if you don't, build another warrior then a Settler.

    Tech Ancient Chants, then Mysticism. If your settler has already popped, build an Elder Council and start your scientist. Turn him into an academy when he's done. Alternatively, if you don't have any forests for productions, build a Pagan Temple and start toward a Great Prophet.

    If you did the former, start toward Octopus Overlords. If you did the latter, start up the metals line to ensure some production and buff your Drown.

    Eco, this is what you have to tech in order to get everything prepared for Saverous:

    Ancient Chants; Mysticism; Agriculture; Education; Knowledge of the Ether; Hunting; Tracking; Poisons.

    This is what has to be teched in order to produce Saverous and Drown. If you took the easy way (via Great Prophet), you'll also have metals, which means Str 5 Drown for 60 GP a piece.

    Fishing, Ancient Chants, Mysticism, Octopus Overlords.

    See the problem?

    -- ACS
     
  13. slowcar

    slowcar King

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    this is the fish metal you speak of, right? not the one that needs crafting, mining and bronze working?

    at the moment its more an argument between you two instead of a strategy thread, maybe sombebody could rename it. why don't you just join #erebus? for a talk or a game...

    alazkhan comes in a bit late for you to survive a rush but FoL is a very defensive start, probably the most you can get. To defeat hunters or archers one needs warfare at least (city raider), catapults would be nearly impossible to put up against assassins.

    on the other hand the elves are very defensive for a long time while other civs can start out warmongering. assassins are not a real offensive option and once alazkhan comes out of hiding he can be zerged like any other hero. elves need magic to weaken cities and are vulnerable to their own strategy, the assassins, then, while classic units can be promoted up until they walk all over a city.

    i don't play competive multiplayer very often thus its more a theoretic approach. in singleplayer the (dark)elves start to shine when other civs are chewing on their second victim, at least that's my impression playing them in "cooperative" (not allied but without war against eachother) deity (with my cohabitant).
     
  14. ophite

    ophite Chieftain

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    Well, no. I mean that for roughly the same number of beakers spent on Message from the Deep, you could take Crafting and Mining and be well on your way toward Bronze Working.
     
  15. PotatoOverdose

    PotatoOverdose Prince

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    The problem is that he can get FoL by the time you have OO or bronze or at the very least (pending good luck on your part and bad luck on his) before you've successfully mobilized an army ready to attack. FoL is an amazing defense against most things, your tactics being one of them. The more units you bring to bear against him, the larger the probability of a treant popping in to say hello. Given a 1v1 situation, FoL will be a more than adequate defense against a drown/saverous attack, and available at oo and before saverous. Eco's strategy will only run into problems if he has multiple potential opponents (of which some pursue similar objectives to his own*). What you have to remember is that a balanced game plays a lot like rock, paper, scissors. That is what a lot of the posters on this thread (including myself, and for that I apologize) forgot when criticizing his strategy. His strategy does have vulnerabilities, but it also has amazing strengths**. His FoL defense is an excellent counter to your OO rush, but is vulnerable to other things (that have already been mentioned). Likewise, your OO rush is probably a viable tool against a number of other civs. Just remember that it is normal for any strategy to have strengths and weaknesses.



    *Example: A smart Ljos player will be able to beat svartalfar to FoL over 95% of the time. I've tested this extensively in multi and sp deity and Ljos, if beelining, are essentially guaranteed to acquire FoL before svart (this is the balanced aspect of Ljos vs. Svart).


    **If a strategy has amazing strengths but no vulnerabilities, it is imbalanced and should be nerfed accordingly.
     
  16. BCalchet

    BCalchet Human, all too human.

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    Wait... why would anyone want to march stacks of drown around in ancient forests looking for treants, when in 95% of cases, you can just, you know... walk around them?
     
  17. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    Guiltily, I've found that 'going FoL' is turning into the best strat/religion for most civs, once you cut away a lot of the role playing assumptions.

    The passive effects of the religions are... staggeringly good, and it's an early religion to get. Not only that, but with Guardian of Nature, you get to work all your forest squares for ~free.

    That is, since each one is giving you +1 Happy, you can work all of them (At +1 Food no less) and still work everything else you would have worked.

    As for strong starts, I'm starting to think the Luichirp hammer rush may in fact be one of the best. Temporary switch to Pacifism gets you a Great Engineer on what, 24 or 25 turns (If you are spiritual or not) which can then turn into generally +25-30% more science, and ANOTHER 3 production.

    I used to save the first for Moe/Curly/Larry, but I've found that with a 5 production boost, and generally having built all the other things I need to build already, Getting the Pact the 'normal' way isn't too hard... and then I get the decent science bonus and long term prod bonus.
     
  18. Demus

    Demus King

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    just for arguements sake, since this strat is rather defensive up to atleast poisons (probably halfway to religious law before any attempt at an offensive war can be tried), wouldn't vampires eat this strategy for breakfast? They, like this Svart strategy, require a relatively quiet earlygame while pushing for eighter vampires or their amazingly powerful hero. Not to mention the fact that flauros could actually beat you to chaleid thanks to fin/org
     
  19. PotatoOverdose

    PotatoOverdose Prince

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    as of the most recent patch FoL spreads ancient forests ridiculously quickly. Theres actually some discussion about this in the aptly named ancient forest thread.
     
  20. Ecofarm

    Ecofarm Deity

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    That is pretty ridiculous; however...

    I think it is pretty weak on commerce compared to Education, Mystic, Hunting, tracking, poisons with cottage spam. The cottage spam might push me to poisons by the time you get OO and build Sav?

    However, if you are financial, I think I might have only hunters to meet Sav :/

    Of course, it would be nice to grab FoL as well, but as I will not likely have the happy to increase my population anyway (that early), I'm probably better off going straight for the defense 1st, then grabbing fol or moving on to Honor.

    I'd have to add up the beaker cost, and then consider the difference between working coast and cottages, and when the cottages become an advantage, and if they allow poison before OO + building Sav.

    ----

    Now, what about Teb? I think he may be a threat as well (or is ether too late even if I go edu, myst, fol, writing, poison).

    Regarding SP: If there are a few AI on the map, you need Honor quick. Radiants are nice for defense with mobility and blind. For that, I would go edu, myst, fol, writing, honor, poisons, law.

    ----

    Nice to see the constructive tone this thread has taken on :)

    I'll try some equal_TBG tests this weekend.
     

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