[RD] Most White People Want to Keep Their Priviledge (And Know They Have It)

[Bugfatty300]

Yep, and I regard this as a basically racist and reactionary idea, so I guess further discussion is pretty pointless.

No offense but have you ever considered that not engaging racist ideas is part of the problem? It can make a difference.

 

[Kyriakos]

What about in whole continents where there are very very VERY few black people? Eg Asia, or even Europe as a total (cause most of the x soviet block is a sea of slavs )

Outside of France and Britain i doubt there is any euro country with a sizable minority of black people (maybe some pseudo-states, like Netherlands? )

 

[Berzerker]

people feel more comfortable around people who look like them

 

[Kyriakos]

people feel more comfortable around people who look like them

Or east asian women

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

What about in whole continents where there are very very VERY few black people? Eg Asia, or even Europe as a total (cause most of the x soviet block is a sea of slavs )

Outside of France and Britain i doubt there is any euro country with a sizable minority of black people (maybe some pseudo-states, like Netherlands? )

Tangentially, in the wake of the Brexit vote, I saw some preliminary data that places where there was more diversity voted more in favour of remaining EU, but I'd have to do some more research and see how the vote broke out demographically and in terms of age before I'd make any comparisons. Still, at face value that seems opposite of how it'd be in the US, assuming the more diverse places aren't significantly younger or more college educated.

 

[Bugfatty300]

A subway car shouldn't make you wholesale have more negative perceptions of an entire group of people that just happens to align with skin colour.

People are pretty programable. If you put them in a negative, vulnerable, impersonal, uncomfortable place like a subway car and surround them with strange unfamiliar folks then they might develop a little negative association or something, i dunno. That's probably what such a study is picking up on rather than some innate white racism trait.

What about a study of people who travel abroad?

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

People are pretty programable. If you put them in a negative, vulnerable, impersonal, uncomfortable place like a subway car and surround them with strange unfamiliar folks then they might develop a little negative association or something, i dunno. That's probably what such a study is picking up on rather than some innate white racism trait.

Understood, but... two things. First, if what you say is true (and I don't think we know one way or another for sure), it would still be racism. If you pick up a negative trait on a group of people based on skin colour, even if in the relative calamity and unenjoyable event of a subway ride, that's still a harmful belief. Secondly, there are just too many similar studies and concurrent examples for me to not accept there is some racial preference here, from reactions to census info, to reactions to ethnicity in ads and books and movies, and on and on.

What about a study of people who travel abroad?

Good question! None that I can recall off the top of my head, but this is probably worth investigating.

 

[Lexicus]

No offense but have you ever considered that not engaging racist ideas is part of the problem? It can make a difference.

That is probably true, but I am at a loss to see how I can engage productively, and I think I've already made it worse. Vincour clearly thinks I am an idiot (and he is probably right) and his opinion if anything has been reinforced by my attempted intervention.
But I really don't know how else to respond to someone who says that anti-racist activism is making things worse, on balance. I can see how people think some of the stuff done and said is counterproductive - I think so myself, but history's messy - but to me the whole thing just stinks of "the real racism is calling people racist."

innate white racism trait.

Uh, I may be wrong but I think GEFM would say that racism is learned, not innate.

 

[rah]

Racism is indeed usually learned, usually from a parent or some other person of respect. Look at the father, and see the son.
But it can be self taught The train story is one possible lesson, but it usually requires a more stronger negative reinforcement. Sometime violence.

 

[Synobun]

That is probably true, but I am at a loss to see how I can engage productively, and I think I've already made it worse. Vincour clearly thinks I am an idiot (and he is probably right) and his opinion if anything has been reinforced by my attempted intervention.

But I really don't know how else to respond to someone who says that anti-racist activism is making things worse, on balance. I can see how people think some of the stuff done and said is counterproductive - I think so myself, but history's messy - but to me the whole thing just stinks of "the real racism is calling people racist."

Putting words in my mouth and using those words as the foundation of your response (or lack thereof) is likely a bad idea.

Calling people racist is fine. Challenging racist beliefs and ideas is also fine. I never said it wasn't. I've been very clear on what I specifically think is unhelpful. I don't think you're an idiot but I am thoroughly confused by the assertion that I hold a racist belief because I think that tensions are growing more dire instead of less. To me, it has as much relevance as me saying crossing the street at 2:30 PM on a Tuesday is racist. It has no logic or relevance from where I am standing, and no attempt is being made by the person who made the claim to make it possess logic or relevance.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That is probably true, but I am at a loss to see how I can engage productively, and I think I've already made it worse. Vincour clearly thinks I am an idiot (and he is probably right) and his opinion if anything has been reinforced by my attempted intervention.
But I really don't know how else to respond to someone who says that anti-racist activism is making things worse, on balance. I can see how people think some of the stuff done and said is counterproductive - I think so myself, but history's messy - but to me the whole thing just stinks of "the real racism is calling people racist."

I tried every way I could think of to confront my dad's gross racism. It was never productive in any way, but I regret none of it. In the end he died, and progress was made.

 

[Lexicus]

Putting words in my mouth and using those words as the foundation of your response (or lack thereof) is likely a bad idea.

Calling people racist is fine. Challenging racist beliefs and ideas is also fine. I never said it wasn't. I've been very clear on what I specifically think is unhelpful. I don't think you're an idiot but I am thoroughly confused by the assertion that I hold a racist belief because I think that tensions are growing more dire instead of less. To me, it has as much relevance as me saying crossing the street at 2:30 PM on a Tuesday is racist. It has no logic or relevance from where I am standing, and no attempt is being made by the person who made the claim to make it possess logic or relevance.

I have made two serious efforts to explain it. Neither worked. I am at a loss to explain it further.
Maybe it would help if you gave some things you interpret as evidence that 'racial tensions are getting more dire.'

There are many college courses today that utilize 'white privilege' as a legitimate theory in social dynamic,

Also want to hear more about this.

 

[metalhead]

The issue with "anti-racist activism" is that it is often based off of explicitly racist ideals. Many of the protests and arguments are built off the back of the idea that someone is a victim and someone is an aggressor. Someone is innocent, someone is guilty. Someone is the enemy, and the enemy is anyone not like you. The "fight fire with fire" approach rarely works and it is rare for equality to be achieved by lessening someone else's worth. Ideally, those who are disadvantaged would be raised to equal footing instead of the power dynamic being switched around. You don't fight back against racism by openly saying there should be less white people, or that white people need to be taken down a peg because of their original sin, or that the opinion of a white person is less than that of someone who falls within a "diverse" background.

I'm taking the line that current accepted methods of fighting back against racism generate more racism. Racism was already there. They're just making it worse (from both sides).

Your idea of what anti-racist protesters are fighting for seems rather at odds with what the vast majority are actually after. You've taken one or two egregious, extreme examples of things that a few people might actually believe and extrapolated them to cover the entirety of protests against racial inequality. The disadvantaged being raised up to equal footing is exactly what today's marchers march for. They don't want cops to start shooting unarmed white people, they want them to stop shooting unarmed people of color. They don't want white neighborhood schools to get worse, they want minority neighborhood schools to get better. They want the same shot at jobs and housing and credit that white people get.

If you start off better understanding the movement you are speaking out against, you may reach a different conclusion about it. It seems like you'd actually agree with the goals that the vast majority of people - white or of color - believe in achieving as a necessary ends for a just society.

 

[Akka]

This just in : dividing discourse along racial lines and telling people they should be ashamed and should make amend because of their skin colour, doesn't tend to reduce racism.
Shocking, I know. Who could have known ?!

 

[Traitorfish]

people feel more comfortable around people who look like them

I'm going to hazard that this guy looks more like this guy than he looks like this guy. If you're looking at these pictures and the melanin level is what stands out to you, that's a decision you've made about how you're going to see the world.

100% of white people admit that they are treated better by society than black people

Most White People Want to Keep Their Priviledge (And Know They Have It)

These aren't actually the same statement. The former is an empirical observation, the latter is a theoretical extrapolation from the former statement. You can't treat academic theory as a self-evident fact.

 

[Samson]

Uh, I may be wrong but I think GEFM would say that racism is learned, not innate.

I think the prevailing opinion is that we have an innate ingroup favoritism which generally presents in modern society as racism. I cannot find a good study that is not mostly behind a paywall but you can read the start of this and abstract of this.

 

[Synobun]

I have made two serious efforts to explain it. Neither worked. I am at a loss to explain it further.
Maybe it would help if you gave some things you interpret as evidence that 'racial tensions are getting more dire.'

The biggest piece of evidence would be media exposure. While the argument that the media is only exposing what already happens is a true one, I do think it makes the situation more dire because the media pushes it into everyone's face. While incident rate may be equal or maybe even less than it was in recent past, the media's focus on exposing the incidents and the subsequent radical reactions from both sides of the fence ("those darn blacks" vs "those evil whites") fans the flames and makes it more likely for copy-cat incidents and racist sentiments to be expanded upon.

I don't think it'll ever be as bad as it was two generations ago, but I do think that the current trend will make things worse before it makes things better. It's a scenario that I personally see as where equality will prevail in spite of tactics used, instead of because of tactics used.

Also want to hear more about this.

Admittedly, my knowledge of this is second-hand from both supporters/people who are against it, but I haven't personally seen it myself. I can look into it if it's important enough, but even then it won't be coming from a place of lived experience.

Your idea of what anti-racist protesters are fighting for seems rather at odds with what the vast majority are actually after. You've taken one or two egregious, extreme examples of things that a few people might actually believe and extrapolated them to cover the entirety of protests against racial inequality. The disadvantaged being raised up to equal footing is exactly what today's marchers march for. They don't want cops to start shooting unarmed white people, they want them to stop shooting unarmed people of color. They don't want white neighborhood schools to get worse, they want minority neighborhood schools to get better. They want the same shot at jobs and housing and credit that white people get.

If you start off better understanding the movement you are speaking out against, you may reach a different conclusion about it. It seems like you'd actually agree with the goals that the vast majority of people - white or of color - believe in achieving as a necessary ends for a just society.

Quote me saying that everyone that's an anti-racism advocate is an extremist.

You won't be able to.

Your description of activism is completely fine. I support it wholeheartedly. I've been very clear about what sort of activism I'm not in support of, and what sort of activism I feel directly contradicts the overarching goal of equality.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Putting words in my mouth and using those words as the foundation of your response (or lack thereof) is likely a bad idea.

Calling people racist is fine. Challenging racist beliefs and ideas is also fine. I never said it wasn't. I've been very clear on what I specifically think is unhelpful. I don't think you're an idiot but I am thoroughly confused by the assertion that I hold a racist belief because I think that tensions are growing more dire instead of less. To me, it has as much relevance as me saying crossing the street at 2:30 PM on a Tuesday is racist. It has no logic or relevance from where I am standing, and no attempt is being made by the person who made the claim to make it possess logic or relevance.

I think the problem is that sentiment - "tensions now are worse than they were before," is most commonly seen being wielded as a club to admonish black people for getting too uppity. The racism and the police brutality and the systematic, enforced inequality has always been there. The only difference is that the minority communities aren't rolling over and taking it anymore. So to turn around and complain about increased tension essentially becomes the equivalent of punching a guy in the face and then complaining when he's always bringing up his black eye any time he sees you. You might not necessarily be making a tension argument as an indictment on the black community. You might merely be stating the facts with no subtext intended. But the fact of the matter is the subtext is there and that's what Lexicus is picking up on.

 

[Lexicus]

The biggest piece of evidence would be media exposure. While the argument that the media is only exposing what already happens is a true one, I do think it makes the situation more dire because the media pushes it into everyone's face. While incident rate may be equal or maybe even less than it was in recent past, the media's focus on exposing the incidents and the subsequent radical reactions from both sides of the fence ("those darn blacks" vs "those evil whites") fans the flames and makes it more likely for copy-cat incidents and racist sentiments to be expanded upon.

I don't think it'll ever be as bad as it was two generations ago, but I do think that the current trend will make things worse before it makes things better. It's a scenario that I personally see as where equality will prevail in spite of tactics used, instead of because of tactics used.

Media exposure of what, precisely, though?

Admittedly, my knowledge of this is second-hand from both supporters/people who are against it, but I haven't personally seen it myself. I can look into it if it's important enough, but even then it won't be coming from a place of lived experience.

No, it sounds like you think white privilege is not real. Is that what you think?

 

[Bootstoots]

Oh, and now a reversion to this racist trope? Racial tensions are not "getting so much worse." It's only white racists who think this, because their idea of "racial tensions" is not when white America "ends welfare as we know it" and locks millions of black people in prison for years on end, their idea of "racial tensions" is when black people get angry and start talking about these things. It's exactly the same as the Southerners calling the Civil Rights Movement a bunch of Northern rabble-rousers, "just outsiders stirring up trouble, our Negroes have always been totally content with being treated like livestock..."

If we can substitute "perceptions of racial tension" for racial tension, both whites and blacks have been seeing race relations in a more negative light in the past three years. It was larger for white people, unsurprisingly, but there is a substantial drop among black people as well.



http://www.gallup.com/poll/1687/race-relations.aspx