<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
By "new world" I meant the other continents.
Movement limits in early eras
- Thread starter 45°38'N-13°47'E
- Start date
PPQ_Purple
Purple Cube (retired)
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2008
- Messages
- 5,764
Either way by the time you get there odds are you have reached the point where you have or are close to the early Renaissance anyway. So both cutoff locations would apply.
Honestly though at this point I feel that the best thing would do is just make two variants of the mod, one with the cutoff at say cartography and the other at where ever the others feel like would be good and just do some playtesting.
Honestly though at this point I feel that the best thing would do is just make two variants of the mod, one with the cutoff at say cartography and the other at where ever the others feel like would be good and just do some playtesting.
Fozman
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2017
- Messages
- 133
Or just not use this game option, which is what I've chosen to do.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
My thought exactly.
Hi.
Just wondering what the distance limit should be. I'm playing on a standard sized map, with Terrain Damage on, and the options list (Ctrl-Shift-Q) includes Movement Limits, but I've got units freely wandering at least 14 squares from the nearest city (start of game). Terrain Damage is shown in the terrain mouse hover text, and applied to units, but no movement limit is yet apparent. Is it just more than 14 squares? Wouldn't have thought so...
EDIT: cleared cache, re-downloaded files, etc... and now my units are being damaged because they're too far away. Must have been a technical problem.
Cheers, A.
Just wondering what the distance limit should be. I'm playing on a standard sized map, with Terrain Damage on, and the options list (Ctrl-Shift-Q) includes Movement Limits, but I've got units freely wandering at least 14 squares from the nearest city (start of game). Terrain Damage is shown in the terrain mouse hover text, and applied to units, but no movement limit is yet apparent. Is it just more than 14 squares? Wouldn't have thought so...
EDIT: cleared cache, re-downloaded files, etc... and now my units are being damaged because they're too far away. Must have been a technical problem.
Cheers, A.
Last edited:
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
If Terrain Damage is ON when using Movement Limits, there's no physical limit that bounces you back (like happens when Terrain Damage is OFF). You can wander freely but your units get damage for being too far from your empire. So the limit is actually given by how long a unit can survive the Terrain Damage, usually a few tiles.
MechatronicJazz
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2007
- Messages
- 316
I just want to say that I actually really like this mechanic so far. I'm playing without Terrain Damage, so I'm dealing with the hard cap on exploration. For those pointing to medieval examples of long range exploration as evidence for an earlier lifting of the movement limit, you actually can explore that far, but it requires a little more effort.
Conquest allows you to go as far as you like, you just need to keep the occasional city as a supply base, which is realistic and adds another element of strategy when picking which cities to keep.
Trade exploration is represented a few different ways:
1) Actual trade routes are not restricted as far as I know, so even if you can't see a part of the map, you can trade with it. Remember, you can trade contacts and establish embassies, which from what I've seen allows basic knowledge of the civs on all nearby continents to be possible very early on (I play perfect world 2 maps).
2) Road networks get pretty good by the middle ages in the game, so if you connect up to your neighbors then you can often get pretty far with Right of Passage Agreements. This is akin to the Silk Road, as some people have mentioned. (There is of course also the Silk Road Wonder)
3) Open Borders allows unrestricted travel. If you want to peacefully explore the far reaches of your continent then getting Open Borders with as many civs as possible is a must. This can be difficult and sometimes will not be possible, but with Restricted Movement, following policies of appeasement and trade or intimidation and protection (vassals, war allies) have an added reward.
I'm sure this can still be tweaked to balance, but I think the overall mechanic is excellent. One suggestion I do have is that it might make sense to allow forts to behave like cities at some point. I really like the idea of having to build "Trade Posts" in order to explore an area, maintain contact, send missionaries and Great Merchants, etc. It could also serve as an alternative for supply bases during conquest. I suppose, as always, the trouble would be teaching the AI to use them.
Conquest allows you to go as far as you like, you just need to keep the occasional city as a supply base, which is realistic and adds another element of strategy when picking which cities to keep.
Trade exploration is represented a few different ways:
1) Actual trade routes are not restricted as far as I know, so even if you can't see a part of the map, you can trade with it. Remember, you can trade contacts and establish embassies, which from what I've seen allows basic knowledge of the civs on all nearby continents to be possible very early on (I play perfect world 2 maps).
2) Road networks get pretty good by the middle ages in the game, so if you connect up to your neighbors then you can often get pretty far with Right of Passage Agreements. This is akin to the Silk Road, as some people have mentioned. (There is of course also the Silk Road Wonder)
3) Open Borders allows unrestricted travel. If you want to peacefully explore the far reaches of your continent then getting Open Borders with as many civs as possible is a must. This can be difficult and sometimes will not be possible, but with Restricted Movement, following policies of appeasement and trade or intimidation and protection (vassals, war allies) have an added reward.
I'm sure this can still be tweaked to balance, but I think the overall mechanic is excellent. One suggestion I do have is that it might make sense to allow forts to behave like cities at some point. I really like the idea of having to build "Trade Posts" in order to explore an area, maintain contact, send missionaries and Great Merchants, etc. It could also serve as an alternative for supply bases during conquest. I suppose, as always, the trouble would be teaching the AI to use them.
Solution for the Magellan's/circumnavigation problem:
First create a (wooden ship) promotion that allows unlimited exploration.
Make that available after Magellan's can be built. Maybe some later ships start with it, whatever.
Change Magellan's to grant this promotion - early - to all owned ships.
So that's the wonder of Magellan's: you get to be Magellan. Circumnavigate the globe and earn the bonus.
First create a (wooden ship) promotion that allows unlimited exploration.
Make that available after Magellan's can be built. Maybe some later ships start with it, whatever.
Change Magellan's to grant this promotion - early - to all owned ships.
So that's the wonder of Magellan's: you get to be Magellan. Circumnavigate the globe and earn the bonus.
PsychopathicWarmonger
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2016
- Messages
- 169
I posted a while ago thinking I had this issue fixed but it's reccurring again.
The same issue as @aggri1 above;
I don't know if it's a problem with one of the modules I'm playing with (MoreMusic, MegaCivPack) or something else.
I thought the problem was with MoreMusic and the eras being used but apparantly not.
I can't rely on Movement Limits working so I'm going to toggle it off in future until some idea is had on the source of the problem.
Have any of you had this occur before?
Edit: Might it have something to do with scenarios and pre-made maps? I've been playing around with them a lot lately, perhaps they're affecting the Movement Limits files in some way?
I've refreshed everything and each game I'm loading appears to have them working fine, but I'd like to bury the problem in the event that it appears again.
The same issue as @aggri1 above;
I done the same as him/her originally and whilst it fixed the problem, it kept coming back.
I don't know if it's a problem with one of the modules I'm playing with (MoreMusic, MegaCivPack) or something else.
I thought the problem was with MoreMusic and the eras being used but apparantly not.
I can't rely on Movement Limits working so I'm going to toggle it off in future until some idea is had on the source of the problem.
Have any of you had this occur before?
Edit: Might it have something to do with scenarios and pre-made maps? I've been playing around with them a lot lately, perhaps they're affecting the Movement Limits files in some way?
I've refreshed everything and each game I'm loading appears to have them working fine, but I'd like to bury the problem in the event that it appears again.
Last edited:
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
So I'm reviewing this feature to try to find the bugs, and I have a question about what the game does with the interface, and an independent, more incisive theory. Does anyone happen to know how a movement order is processed when it is issued to a tile not adjacent to the unit's current position?
That aside, I'm pretty sure one source of error is this conjunction of conditionals, on line CvUnit.cpp:25752 @rev. 1078
If my assumption can be verified, an incremental fix can be attempted to solve the "Movement Limits seemingly doesn't do anything" bugs.
That aside, I'm pretty sure one source of error is this conjunction of conditionals, on line CvUnit.cpp:25752 @rev. 1078
Code:
25752 | if ((getTeam() != NO_TEAM) && (GET_PLAYER(pPlot->getOwnerINLINE()).getTeam() != NO_TEAM) && (GET_PLAYER(pPlot->getOwnerINLINE()).getTeam() < 100 /*temporary hack for pitboss*/) && !isBarbarian() && (!GET_PLAYER(pPlot->getOwnerINLINE()).isBarbarian()) && (!gDLL->IsPitbossHost()))This condition, as well as a combination of others, MUST be true in order for a plot to be designated NOT INSIDE the movement limits, as that is the only return false of the function. In particular, it MUST be true that
which shortens to that the plot into which you would move has an owner designation* which is on a team. If the NO_PLAYER sentinel value is defined as team NO_TEAM, then this is really asking that the plot is inside civ territory.
Code:
(GET_PLAYER(pPlot->getOwnerINLINE()).getTeam() != NO_TEAM)Therefore, it MUST be true that the plot into which you would move is SOMEONE's territory, for it to be possible that the plot is outside movement limits. Which means that every unclaimed tile is inside all movement limits.
I'm guessing how Teams work, I think every player is on its own team, unless the game actually was set up with multi-civ teams. Even if teams are assigned some other way, it looks probable to me still that this logic is erroneous in the case that teams come into play.
I'm guessing how Teams work, I think every player is on its own team, unless the game actually was set up with multi-civ teams. Even if teams are assigned some other way, it looks probable to me still that this logic is erroneous in the case that teams come into play.
If my assumption can be verified, an incremental fix can be attempted to solve the "Movement Limits seemingly doesn't do anything" bugs.
Alpaya
Chieftain
To get damage for too far exploration is a great mechanics, however units like missionaries or workers that move without damage on any terrain could explore land ignoring this too far land damage restriction.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Wolf. Exploring with 0
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
There are some issues with Movement Limit with Terrain Damage ON:
1) Oases and Flood Plains are safe havens
While it totally makes sense with Oasis that units take no damage when outside movement limit range, Flood Plains are not only unrealistic but also exploitable for the human player: moving and resting along Flood Plains you can get extra Goody Huts.
Solution:
Either make Flood Plains deal ML damage or make all river adjacent tiles harmless, so the AI can exploit it too.
2) Tundras are safer than Grassland with the right promotion
Arctic Warrior I makes a unit immune to terrain damage on Tundras... and ML damage too. Same goes with Deserts and the respective promotion. But other terrain types (that normally don't inflict terrain damage) has no "immunity promotions" either. So with certain promotions you can go further on some terrain than on others.
Solution:
Either fix ML, so terrain damage and ML damage work separately OR apply terrain immunity to all terrains with promotions. (I'm leaning toward this second solution in my modmod)
1) Oases and Flood Plains are safe havens
While it totally makes sense with Oasis that units take no damage when outside movement limit range, Flood Plains are not only unrealistic but also exploitable for the human player: moving and resting along Flood Plains you can get extra Goody Huts.
Solution:
Either make Flood Plains deal ML damage or make all river adjacent tiles harmless, so the AI can exploit it too.
2) Tundras are safer than Grassland with the right promotion
Arctic Warrior I makes a unit immune to terrain damage on Tundras... and ML damage too. Same goes with Deserts and the respective promotion. But other terrain types (that normally don't inflict terrain damage) has no "immunity promotions" either. So with certain promotions you can go further on some terrain than on others.
Solution:
Either fix ML, so terrain damage and ML damage work separately OR apply terrain immunity to all terrains with promotions. (I'm leaning toward this second solution in my modmod)
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
I actually like that a civ born in a difficult environment might have some advantage. But I'll have to run some test to check it's not too unfair.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Me too. But a mediterranean civ can also promote its units with Arctic Warrior. In that case it's an advantage over an advantage.
nionios
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2013
- Messages
- 466
I remember a basic mod called "Terrain Tactics" from CCV megamod by Thomas SG where terrain- related promotions were available only to units built in cities that had such type of terrain in their city radius.Units that had a victorious combat over such terrain had access to the relative promotion too.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Realistic, but complicated. I don't support it.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Same feeling here.
