Muslim anger grows at Pope speech

[Winner]

So, even the Pope can't say something, that could possibly harm Muslim feelings. I guess we should also demolish all cathedrals in Spain, because they offend the former Muslim occupiers and, of course, we should also apologize for having won the Battle of Poitiers

Oh my non-existent God! I hope that Vatican will stop that Muslim appeasement policy it has adopted since John Paul II and return to... umm, old ways. Church says it is the guardian of Christian tradition and way of life, so it should also act like it.

Muslim anger grows at Pope speech

A statement from the Vatican has failed to quell criticism of Pope Benedict XVI from Muslim leaders, after he made a speech about the concept of holy war.

Speaking in Germany, the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things.

Pakistan's parliament passed a resolution on Friday criticising the Pope for making "derogatory" comments.

The Vatican said the Pope had not intended to offend Muslims.

"It is clear that the Holy Father's intention is to cultivate a position of respect and dialogue towards other religions and cultures, and that clearly includes Islam," said chief Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi in a statement.

But in spite of the statement, the pontiff returned to Rome to face a barrage of criticism, reports the BBC's David Willey in Rome.

The head of the Muslim Brotherhood said the Pope's remarks "aroused the anger of the whole Islamic world".


Violence and faith

In his speech at Regensburg University, the German-born Pope explored the historical and philosophical differences between Islam and Christianity, and the relationship between violence and faith.

The remarks do not express correct understanding of Islam
Mohammed Mahdi Akef
Muslim Brotherhood

Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manual II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.

The emperor's words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Benedict said "I quote" twice to stress the words were not his and added that violence was "incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul".


'Angry and hurt'

Pakistan's parliament passed a resolution demanding that the Pope retract his remarks "in the interest of harmony between religions".

"The derogatory remarks of the Pope about the philosophy of jihad and Prophet Mohammed have injured sentiments across the Muslim world and pose the danger of spreading acrimony among the religions," the AFP news agency quoted the resolution by the country's national assembly as saying.

In India, which has a sizeable Muslim population, Minority Commission Chairman Hamid Ansari said: "The language used by the Pope sounds like that of his 12th-Century counterpart who ordered the crusades...

"It surprises me because the Vatican has a very comprehensive relationship with the Muslim world."

The remarks prompted fears of unrest in Indian-administered Kashmir, as a result of which two separatist leaders were put under house arrest.

Meanwhile, the "hostile" remarks drew a demand for an apology from a top religious official in Turkey - where the Pope is due in November on his first papal visit to a Muslim country.

Ali Bardakoglu recalled atrocities committed by Roman Catholic Crusaders against Orthodox Christians and Jews, as well as Muslims, in the Middle Ages.

In Egypt, Muslim Brotherhood head Mohammed Mahdi Akef said the Pope's words "do not express correct understanding of Islam and are merely wrong and distorted beliefs being repeated in the West".

In a statement, he was "astonished that such remarks come from someone who sits on top of the Catholic Church which has its influence on the public opinion in the West".

Sheikh Youssef al-Qardawi, a prominent Muslim cleric in Qatar, rejected the Pope's comments, in remarks reported by Reuters.

"Muslims have the right to be angry and hurt by these comments from the highest cleric in Christianity,"* Mr Qardawi reportedly said.

"We ask the Pope to apologise to the Muslim nation for insulting its religion, its Prophet and its beliefs."

The 57-nation Organisation of the Islamic Conference also said it regretted the Pope's remarks.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/5347876.stm

* - of course, Christians have no right to be angry and hurt by constant Muslim attacks on their culture, countries, lives and dignity. The hypocrisy of that statement is almost unbearable It is them who should be apologizing every second of every minute of every hour a day for what their brothers and sisters in faith do, not us, not our politicians and not even the Pope.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Now, if ol' Benny didn't intend to badmouth Islam, what was the point in quoting that phrase?

 

[sysyphus]

This is the same Pope who has angered secularists too, he's even criticised Canada for being tolerant! What kind of christian hates tolerance?

Herr Ratzinger seems to want to agitate everyone regarless of religion (or lack thereof).

 

[Kozmos]

Ah the Panzer Pope is at it again. Dont care really, the matters of religion are of no consequence to me.

 

[sysyphus]

True, but this one likes to stick his nose in areas beyond religion.

 

[Winner]

Now, if ol' Benny didn't intend to badmouth Islam, what was the point in quoting that phrase?

Maybe he thought it was relevant to the subject of that conference?

 

[Winner]

True, but this one likes to stick his nose in areas beyond religion.

He is a scholar, not a politican. I am not a believer, but in this, I have to stand by him - some Muslim leaders obviously feel offended by the very existence of other religions. By their logic, we all (christians and atheists - simply westerners) should apologize for every single bad thing that happened in the past and praise their past military victories over the infidels.

What is going to happen next? Will we have to change our textbooks and start saying that destruction of the Byzantian Empire was good for the world or that it is very unfortunate that Ottomans failed to capture Vienna?

They simply have no right to feel offended. They should better shut up and do something about terrorism, then we can have a talk about religion and violence.

 

[El_Machinae]

It's probably being taken out of context; and would make sense to those listening with a charitable ear.

That said, the Catholic Church is fully capable of being criticised; we've been training them for years. They can take it.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Maybe he thought it was relevant to the subject of that conference?

Since the point he was making apparently was about Islam's greater enthusiasm for using violence in the name of religion, one'd think it'd be both more convincing and less antagonizing just to quote the Koran instead of a Byzantine emperor who spent much of his life fighting Muslims.

 

[Grisu]

so what? it's not exactly news that religious people, regardless of the specific faith, are offended easily (just looks at all that Madonna vs. catholics drama...)

 

[Che Guava]

He is a scholar, not a politican. I am not a believer, but in this, I have to stand by him - some Muslim leaders obviously feel offended by the very existence of other religions. By their logic, we all (christians and atheists - simply westerners) should apologize for every single bad thing that happened in the past and praise their past military victories over the infidels.

I can't really claim to be up-to-date on what goes on in the muslim world, but can anyone cite specific examples of how muslim leaders feel offended by the existance of other religions (without mentioning the state of israel, which is another kettle of fish)? Who is calling on the pope or the rest of the christian world to praise the military victories of past islamic empires? In the article cited I see only mention of them, not any specific demands....

What is going to happen next? Will we have to change our textbooks and start saying that destruction of the Byzantian Empire was good for the world or that it is very unfortunate that Ottomans failed to capture Vienna?

One person's good history is another's bad. I'm sure in, say, turkish texts, the failures of the ottomans at Vienna is a 'bad' thing

They simply have no right to feel offended. They should better shut up and do something about terrorism, then we can have a talk about religion and violence.

You're right: if a terrorist blows himself up in palestine/israel, muslim leaders the world 'round should be held responsible....

 

[C~G]

* - of course, Christians have no right to be angry and hurt by constant Muslim attacks on their culture, countries, lives and dignity. The hypocrisy of that statement is almost unbearable It is them who should be apologizing every second of every minute of every hour a day for what their brothers and sisters in faith do, not us, not our politicians and not even the Pope.

Oh, you mean attacks like taking over country that has been supported in the past by western governments while during the "liberation" (and broughting in western standards) tens of thousands of muslims die and it turns out it to be complete mess eventually bringing the whole country into the point of civil war?
You should be Winner above all, aware how hypocritical this sounds in the light of those events.

What comes to Pope it's better that I don't share my sentiments about him and his precious church in overall and how many lives they actually ruin all over the world, this statement in this case being one of the lesser of evils when it comes his holy highness, after all I might end up offending some christians who actually listen to this fundamentalist.

 

[Evil Tyrant]

Yep, the remarks probably did offend Muslims, but I can't say I give a damn about their feelings.

 

[Elrohir]

Sounds pretty offensive to me.

But it also sounds pretty close to the truth, too, so I'm not sure I'm one to talk.

 

[Winner]

I can't really claim to be up-to-date on what goes on in the muslim world, but can anyone cite specific examples of how muslim leaders feel offended by the existance of other religions (without mentioning the state of israel, which is another kettle of fish)? Who is calling on the pope or the rest of the christian world to praise the military victories of past islamic empires? In the article cited I see only mention of them, not any specific demands...

Slight exaggeration from me. It appears, that Muslims can't stand the fact, that people in other cultures of other religion do things they despise.

We can't make caricatures of their prophets, because they feel so offended that they need to burn some embassy. Public institutions in Britain don't serve pork, because poor Muslims could be offended. Muslims European countries are offended, that we don't allow them to apply Sharia law in parts of our countries. Muslims in Netherlands attack people who make movies about their attitudes towards women.

And so on and so on.

I am tired of this. Why should we apologize for everything, why should we appease them, while they are agressive towards our culture and our way of life? This is totally insane.

One person's good history is another's bad. I'm sure in, say, turkish texts, the failures of the ottomans at Vienna is a 'bad' thing

You're right: if a terrorist blows himself up in palestine/israel, muslim leaders the world 'round should be held responsible....

Another word-twisting?

The only thing I said was, that I find it utterly hypocritic that they criticize us for eating pork (metaphore), while they don't say a word against the bad habits of their own religion.

 

[Winner]

Since the point he was making apparently was about Islam's greater enthusiasm for using violence in the name of religion, one'd think it'd be both more convincing and less antagonizing just to quote the Koran instead of a Byzantine emperor who spent much of his life fighting Muslims.

I guess then he would be accused of mocking Koran by misinterpreting it.

 

[Winner]

Sounds pretty offensive to me.

But it also sounds pretty close to the truth, too, so I'm not sure I'm one to talk.

Well, then you have to decide if the truth can actually offend someone

 

[Brighteye]

'he made a speech about the concept of holy war. '

That says it all. How can someone talk about holy war and not mention Islam? I'm sure that he mentioned Christianity too.
As for Muslims being offended, they should learn some relativism. The bishop of Rome has no requirement to obey their moral standards. Their standards apply to them, not to us.

 

[Elrohir]

Well, then you have to decide if the truth can actually offend someone

Why not? If you've been brought up believing something that isn't true, why wouldn't the truth be a shock to you, and be offensive to your preconceived notions?

You shouldn't be offended by the truth, but some are.

 

[Che Guava]

Slight exaggeration from me. It appears, that Muslims can't stand the fact, that people in other cultures of other religion do things they despise.

We can't make caricatures of their prophets, because they feel so offended that they need to burn some embassy. Public institutions in Britain don't serve pork, because poor Muslims could be offended. Muslims European countries are offended, that we don't allow them to apply Sharia law in parts of our countries. Muslims in Netherlands attack people who make movies about their attitudes towards women.

And so on and so on.

Actually, I agree with you on a lot of those points. I don't think that muslims should be as sensitive about the image of mohammed, as it is a rule for the faithful, not everyone. In canada, we've had groups lobbying for Sharia law as well, and I don't think that it should be brought about in western countries. I hadn't heard about pork in britain (link?) but that just seems outrageous.

I think its our responsibility as westerners to stick to our guns on our liberal society, but that includes giving the more extreme ends of society the benefit of an ear and due process. If they want to be pissed at white europeans for not allowing sharia law, or eating pork in public, then let them be pissed, I still don't think that prominent european leaders, religious or not, should be taking pot-shots at islam. That just worsens the problem.

I am tired of this. Why should we apologize for everything, why should we appease them, while they are agressive towards our culture and our way of life? This is totally insane.

We don't have to appease or appologize. But we shouldn't be aggressive in return either. IMHO.

Another word-twisting?

The only thing I said was, that I find it utterly hypocritic that they criticize us for eating pork (metaphore), while they don't say a word against the bad habits of their own religion.

Didn't mean to twist your words there winner, I guess I just misunderstood you. I don't think any religion has been strong on self-criticism, even when thier name is used to justify terrible violence in many parts of the world. I think there does need to be some more introspection in islam, but I don't think people like you and I are going to get much accomplished by telling muslims that.