My experience with game

[Phrossack]

Yeah man, you better.

I'm not accusing Terx of anything beyond what he said about having creeped out women in the past. I commented that I'd rather avoid that.

You took exception to this and accused me by snarkily "correcting" my post. Now...what's your excuse?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

As is, you're kinda just saying, "I did stuff differently and I'm not going to say what," which really isn't much of a starting point for discussion and sounds like clickbait

Alright you are right I will say a few words. But not tonight.

People with game, or manners, or etiquette, or character, or any other name for one's default social behaviors put others at ease more often than those who do not. Multiply that by social courage and it makes others even happier.

My general people skills have improved, actually. I have learned to be more aware of myself and in what kind of social dynamic I am moving, and if you are a good guy, which I think I kinda am, that does produce more than one winner. However, it will also help your social status. So there is a self-serving component to it (which happens to attract women).

 

[AmazonQueen]

But still the problem is not seeing women as people but as some sort of target you have to score against.

 

[Phrossack]

Alright you are right I will say a few words. But not tonight.

Fair enough, thanks.

And though you didn't say anything about it, I just want to make sure you know I wasn't accusing you of being creepy, just using your mention that you'd creeped out women in the past as a starting point to say I personally don't take those risks.

 

[Hygro]

I'm not accusing Terx of anything beyond what he said about having creeped out women in the past. I commented that I'd rather avoid that.

You took exception to this and accused me by snarkily "correcting" my post. Now...what's your excuse?

Okay, you're right I did that. But. I am not responding to you the person so much as responding to an extrapolated take on your viewpoint. It's one I have seen often. And it defies the lived experience of so many I know, who become decidedly less offensive to women in a meaningful way by learning to be more free through better socializing that comes from a whole bunch of (previously) unwritten, unspoken common expectations/preferences.

My general people skills have improved, actually. I have learned to be more aware

This is common.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Fair enough, thanks.

And though you didn't say anything about it, I just want to make sure you know I wasn't accusing you of being creepy, just using your mention that you'd creeped out women in the past as a starting point to say I personally don't take those risks.

That is understandable. I did neither. It is kinda horrifying. But you got to face your fears. Though I only did so after a quite traumatic experience and after I ... well after I saw a goal I believed in. That failed work love story kinda broke me, actually. And broken, I stumbled onto that book, and I was in the perfect state of mind to absorb that stuff. Because all the evidence was constantly spinning in my mind, since I struggled to fall out of love with a woman who kinda despised me, because I saw her daily, in close context. Both, actually. So in a way - I was extremely lucky

 

[Phrossack]

Okay, you're right I did that. But. I am not responding to you the person so much as responding to an extrapolated take on your viewpoint. It's one I have seen often. And it defies the lived experience of so many I know, who become decidedly less offensive to women in a meaningful way by learning to be more free through better socializing that comes from a whole bunch of (previously) unwritten, unspoken common expectations/preferences.

That's fair. Due to certain traits I can't always read people as well as others can, and don't always know these unwritten expectations, so I play it safe and avoid hitting on/flirting with women entirely. They get enough trouble as is.

 

[Hygro]

That's fair. Due to certain traits I can't always read people as well as others can, and don't always know these unwritten expectations, so I play it safe and avoid hitting on/flirting with women entirely. They get enough trouble as is.

That's what this whole thing is for!

Ultimately you're doing straight women a service by putting yourself into the dating pool. More men than women are opting out. If a few women are creeped out by a misunderstanding, they'll be fine. More fine than someone avoiding trying, and also more fine than women having to compete for fewer and fewer, and increasingly entitled in response, men.

Re: the misunderstanding: think about it. Your history and intentions are non-abusive, consensual, and wanting good things and respect for others.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

But I understand women well, in some ways. They are no enigma by any means.

I'm looking forward to seeing @MaryKB tackle this thread...

People with game, or manners, or etiquette, or character, or any other name for one's default social behaviors put others at ease more often than those who do not.

There's a considerable difference between ordinary manners and etiquette and seeing women as a prize to be won, without the pesky effort necessary to see us as people, not as some thing.

I'm sufficiently creeped out by reading this thread.

 

[red_elk]

Why did you pick this route instead of simply treating women like people?

He most likely got better with treating women like people, if he stopped creeping them out.

 

[Lexicus]

the philosophy which underpins game and pick-up

The problem is, there are as many philosophies which underpin "game and pick-up" as there are "pick-up artists".

I read Neil Strauss' book many years ago. I found it highly interesting, though it didn't help me practically at all. I also read Mark Manson's Models after it was recommended by a friend, which was less interesting but probably more practically useful because of the way it talks about relationship dynamics. Interestingly the main thesis of that book was in essence what Tim is saying: being hyper-honest to yourself and about yourself is the best 'strategy' if you want a real relationship, because sooner or later the mask is going to slip off.

Due to certain traits I can't always read people as well as others can, and don't always know these unwritten expectations, so I play it safe and avoid hitting on/flirting with women entirely.

I used to be like this. I fooled myself into thinking it was because I was too good to engage in the unethical behaviors I fooled myself into thinking were necessary to have any success in dating or hooking up.

I'll warn you that it wasn't sustainable for me.

There's a considerable difference between ordinary manners and etiquette and seeing women as a prize to be won, without the pesky effort necessary to see us as people, not as some thing.

'Game' in the sense that Hygro is talking about dovetails with this. For example becoming more confident allowed me to see rejection as the inevitable consequence of the fact that women are people, rather than as something that reflected personally on me, or something to overcome.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Interestingly the main thesis of that book was in essence what Tim is saying: being hyper-honest to yourself and about yourself is the best 'strategy' if you want a real relationship, because sooner or later the mask is going to slip off.

Actually, my approach of learning game was also a ton about coming to terms with myself. Kinda was part of a general spiritual journey, one might say. One key to success is to master your fears rather than have them master you. Because - approaching women you got the real hots for is scary. Especially when this is not something one is used to doing. Or if you actually find yourself not in their league etc. And while I am on the one hand in shape and tall (God I love being tall) and in general relatively good-looking, I am also chubby and got ***** tits. Especially them boobies really hurt my sexual confidence in the past. And unhandled insecurities are a game and seduction killer. (handled insecurities on the other hand can deepen the connection - makes it real and authentic and there is a place for vulnerability in seduction) So what I had to do was exactly to learn to be brutally honest with myself and just take things as they just are. I had to learn to be one with them, so they could no longer control or hinder me. And if you manage that, if you know your deficiencies and are genuinely cool with them, so that others also actually will not be able to use them to hurt you, but rather you don't mind making some good fun of it yourself - all in good measure of course - then this ups your game immensely.
I have literally experienced that hot girls have tested weather that is the case with me. They would test weather I am cool with my body for instance (illustration: that aforementioned 21-year old, just two weeks ago, mocked me for having bigger boobs than she does - well I do, and we had a good well-natured laugh about it - especially her laughter in that moment sounded like a sign of relieve - she was relieved I did not hold an inferiority complex about it - which would have been unpleasant and unattractive). If I had been insecure about it, they would have seen it, I would have experienced it like an attack, and I would have failed the test (women love love love to test). Instead, I passed the test, and they found me more attractive than ever before. What could have been my death sentence became another attribute which drew them to me. That is the fantastic thing about being a man - you can do so much with a genuine strong personality, way more than women.

In a nutshell - don't expect anyone to accept or be cool with which you do not accept and are not cool with. And girls will know, sooner or later.

Will do my piece later. I find it quite a challange to succinctly put it all into words.

 

[The_J]

Since I'm watching a lot... and I mean a lot of Youtube videos about it...

Dunno what "game" you're using, but I'd probably rather be single than creep women out.

Okay, but what are you trying to say here? "I learned some unspecified stuff and got more dates?"

Basically...yes, I guess.
Some parts of "game" are is that you learn to adjust to the environment, to the people and the situation. Being creepy is not being able to do that. If you are aware of your environment, of the situation, and how you and the other people feel, you'll not be weird and creepy.
Another part there is that you need to be able to enoy the journey itself, which requires being a nice and interesting conversation partner. Nobody will feel creeped out if you are telling them an interesting story.

But still the problem is not seeing women as people but as some sort of target you have to score against.

Lots of the "game" stuff actually deals with self improvement. Because part of the philosophy is that this all "works" best, if you don't try to score against the other person, but rather just have an interesting and nice time together. Which will make the other person just agree with you.
It's not using someone, if you both had a good time, and no other thoughts around it.

 

[MaryKB]

You sure mention you're "not a player" and "not going for pickup artist stuff" quite a lot ... and I feel that's really creepy. Most of what you're saying sounds so very disturbing to me, and despite your repeated protestations of how you're not trying to be a player, you're totally coming off like one to me.

You're also using a lot of demeaning words related to women, like when you talk about your "fresh supply", and you're after "smoking hot girls" and such. Maybe you're having sexual success, but that doesn't make you not a sexist creep and predator.

You try to talk about how you're working to get in touch with your personality, but what about women's? You seem to be talking almost exclusively about chasing "hot girls" and almost everything you say sounds like you're focused on the physical. Real relationships are about connecting with someone emotionally and valuing her for who she is, not what she looks like. You definitely sound to me like you're being deceptive and playing a game, trying to find tricks that will result in more sex with "hot girls." Real women will see you coming from a mile away.

Someone like @Phrossack doesn't need to flirt, he's a good and interesting person, and he just needs to be himself.

 

[Farm Boy]

Glad you're learning to socialize better terx. If you are interested in that long term stuff, the short term is a prerequisite. Past that, you're right, long term is more about respect and codependence than it is excitement, fun, or the surface game of love. All people change over time, and successful relationships are maintained in such a way as to prioritize the relationship while nurturing the freedom to change.

I would, probably, recommend working on outgrowing the affair stage of socialization. It's generally harmful and unkind to all involved, by my observation.

 

[inthesomeday]

It is fundamentally creepy to imagine an interaction with another person as a game, a hunt, a transaction, or any other kind of endeavor besides an interaction with another person. Pickup culture is creepy by nature and so is the male psychology that wants to dominate women.

Even if it’s not an explicit objectification in your mind, even if you don’t literally think about women as objects at the surface level, by participating in this kind of “game” you are subconsciously dehumanizing women by turning them into goals to conquer. It might seem normal or healthy but if it is you should see a psychiatrist because you might be doing this same thing in all your relationships which is really just sad.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The thread title made me think you were talking about video games and I was terribly confused for a few minutes.

It's been called that a long time, I'd already heard people who are effective at "picking up women" called "players" and having "game" since the late 1990's. Perhaps it's older than that even.

To some extent it fits. There are rules, both explicit and implicit. Things that are generally a good idea to say/do, and some things that are very bad to say/do. Different goals too (established relationships vs one-nighters or something in between). The choices and preferences of the other people involved matter a lot.

I was never a fan of the pick-up artist stuff, felt too superficial/farcical. Clubs are awful for example, both for the often degenerate motivations there but also for the simple fact that it's hard to hear the person in front of you, which in THEORY should be important.

Fixed for reality. People with game, or manners, or etiquette, or character, or any other name for one's default social behaviors put others at ease more often than those who do not. Multiply that by social courage and it makes others even happier.

Social courage =/= social skill. I've seen guys with plenty of confidence creep others out, and not just women. Confidence helps, because it helps avoid panic/saying questionable things unintentionally, but it's not a sufficient property by itself. IMO it's even secondary to just being able to tell how other people are feeling/reacting based on what they say + body language. If someone can at least do that they can adjust/prevent things from getting uncomfortable and learn.

I can intellectually understand the draw of being in a long-term relationship, but it requires sacrifices I'm not willing to make.

I'm sufficiently creeped out by reading this thread.

There are some parallels between men seeing women as sex objects and women seeing men as provider objects. I'm not a big fan of either of them, I know there's some evolutionary drive there but we should be able to overcome this.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Yes, women like to test men.

Only way to get the truth of things.

 

[The_J]

You're also using a lot of demeaning words related to women, [...] "smoking hot girls" and such.

Why is that demeaning o_O?

It is fundamentally creepy to imagine an interaction with another person as a game, a hunt, a transaction, or any other kind of endeavor besides an interaction with another person.

Ever been at a job interview, or discussed a salary raise? Bartered? Or litererally played a game with another person, like werwolfs or mafia?
A lot in human interactions is a sort of transaction. Sometimes, this is literal, as above. Often, it's more figuratively. You exchange experiences, which is a transaction. You exchange knowledge, which is a transaction. You joke with each other, and you are exchanging feelings. And sometimes you get into a joke spiral, and everyone is making a better one...which is in some way also a game.
This is very meta, but the very nature of human interactions are exchanges, in some kind of physical or emotional way.

If you think it's not a transaction: Think about a conversation, where one partner is completely silent. You will get bored of this, because there is no transaction back to you.

Maybe you're having sexual success, but that doesn't make you not a sexist creep and predator.

There is in no way a 1-1 relationship to this. Being creepy means per defintion that someone is not behaving appropriately. Having success in a field which is essentially only about behaving makes someone not creepy.

You try to talk about how you're working to get in touch with your personality, but what about women's?

It would be very sexist to generalize that far. Someone can talk extensively about their own personality, because that is something a person hopefully knows the most. Saying now something about everyone's else personality would be a generalization, and in this case a sexist one. You need to approach every person one by one, because everyone is uniquze, and talking about that would be quite a wall of text, and also not be very sensisble, since this might be very private.

Real relationships are about connecting with someone emotionally and valuing her for who she is, not what she looks like.

Did he say anything else?

Besides this, not all relationships are about deep emotions. The important ones are, but not all.
I had great times with a few people who I met at various occasions, like parties, the gym and dancing. I would not call them close friends. I would not share my deep feelings with them. I do miss some of these people, because I had many good interactions with them. But nothing deep and emotional. But that is okay, because the situations never called for it, they rather called for company at the right times. The are still valuable for me, but in a different way.

You definitely sound to me like you're being deceptive and playing a game, trying to find tricks that will result in more sex with "hot girls." Real women will see you coming from a mile away.

Someone like @Phrossack doesn't need to flirt, he's a good and interesting person, and he just needs to be himself.

Actually, flirting is a very nice human interaction .
Also the "deceptiveness" here is basically trying to improve human interactions...which is not a thing, which, which should be shamed, right?
One of the "tricks" is to learn how to be an interesting conversation partner. Some people are natural talkers, Some people not, and need to learn it. There are different strategies how to improve the way you talk, the way you have an interesting conversation. It's a technique. It's not deceptive, it's not insincere. What's wrong with it?

EDIT: Part of "game" also deals with becoming interesting. The above mentioned talking techniques make you basically more interesting. Nothing wrong with that either, right?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Ever been at a job interview, or discussed a salary raise? Bartered? Or litererally played a game with another person, like werwolfs or mafia?

These are not remotely the same as what Mary is talking about.