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[BTS] My First Immortal Game with Hannibal

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by CGQ, Jun 30, 2020.

  1. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Grans are ignored usually in cap at least until the first 2 or 3 settlers unless you are maybe Exp and can knock one out with a chop/OF in 1t.
     
  2. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    I think it's more important to get the Settlers out quickly and found the good city sites then to lay cottages a few turns sooner. You could have done a bit better job scouting too maybe.

    Anyways funny enough, I also played to turn 48 (2080 BC). You can read my spoiler as I don't think there is anything too spoily in there. I didn't reveal Iron or Horses yet but I did explore the surroundings a bit more although I didn't find any AI's yet. I'm surprised they are that far considering it's a standard sized map (?) with extra AI's.

    Spoiler :

    Settler is already out to set up the 3rd city 1 NE of Corn. It can share the Corn and use the Copper since the capital will mostly work cottages. My 4th and 5th city will probably go upstream along the river. I founded Utica 1S of where you did where it can still autoconnect to the capital via the river and use the Cow but can also use the Rice after the borders pop. 1 Cow isn't that good for food given the number of plains tiles around. Then again you can share extra two FP's with the capital so it's all good.

    Even though my cap shows that it's building a granary, I'll probably build an Axe instead for insurance. Barbs are very active here to say the least and once I build the 3rd city they won't hesitate to enter my borders.



     
  3. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    I played on to turn 75 (1000 BC). Still no Iron or Horses revealed.

    Spoiler :

    Settled two more good city sites. Cottaged up Carthage. Researched Sailing to enable coast trade including trade routes with AI's soon. Planning to build two more coastal cities 1E of western Cow and 2N of eastern Rice. Given that we have Copper and I'm going to run Scientists in Hardometum, I may use a GS to pop Metal Casting to build the Colossus. With Financial leaders it's generally not bad working coastal tiles with a Lighthouse 2:food: 3:commerce: but Colossus makes it even better 2:food: 4:commerce:. GLH also has terrific synergy with Hannibal but I don't have forests to chop so even just Colossus will be hard to build. Alpha is a few turns from being done so I should be able to trade for Iron Working to clear jungle. Also want to build one more city 1 NE of Banana. That's the ideal scenario here to have 8 cities which is easily more than enough. No religion spread makes me a bit worried about Monty who is very close now. Charlie is the one who built the Great Wall visible to the west.





     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  4. CGQ

    CGQ Warlord

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    Spoiler Played to Turn 68/111 :


    I went back to turn 6, to undo all the mistakes that were pointed out so far here on the forums. Then, Yes. I played to turn 111. I can't help it, I got carried away and the game seemed straight forward. At least it did until I realized what a complete psychopath Montezuma is! I just don't get it. Chary is literally Monty's worst arch nemesis in this game. They're opposite religions, they are each other's worst enemy and "annoyed" with each other. Yet somehow, Monty declares on ME! Like why me? What do I have to do with them?! I get it, because I have a low power rating, but how is it possible that the AI will pick me over their WORST ENEMY just because of my power rating? Is that for real?

    However...I reloaded a turn before and was able to stop him in the time being by begging for his 50 gold. At least for 10 Turns. Now what? I attached the save below for anyone curious on what I can do in that situation. I just went into Bureaucracy before he DOW'ED. The thing that sucks is I think this is my best game yet. 6 Cities and I'm making 220 BPT in 100 BC (100% only -9 GPT). Is that actually good so far or could it be even better? (I'm sure it could that's why I'm here to learn lol)

    So back to 3760 BC:


    Ooh free forest this time around!


    I work these tiles since it speeds up the settler. As you may notice, this time around I built a mine after the copper instead of a 7-turn FP farm. Because the mine only took 4 turns it gave my worker time to chop the tree NE of corn. I 2-whipped settler:


    I start teching pottery, while chops+overflow go towards the 2nd worker. This works out way better than the first time around so far:


    Warrior finds jungle rice and fish. I also see gems but I'm pretty sure Monty's gonna claim them first:


    First cottages are done as I tech Writing:


    I build 2nd settler to 2-pop whip at size 4:


    The "Forgotten?!" We'll just see about that!


    This time around I grew the city to size 4 and whipped the settler instead of whipping a granary. I founded Had on Turn 52. Worker heads to rice to improve it then build cottages on the riverside grasslands:


    I 2-Pop whip Granary in Utica:


    Workers continue building financial cottages. Capital and Utica build axmen for barbs:


    AH arrives right on time. The worker next to cow just finished cottage and he moves straight to the cows to improve them:


    Horses are revealed southwest into the jungle. Unfortunately it seems Monty will take it too. I tech hunting while worker improves rice. If I time it correctly he'll be able to improve elephants at the same time:


    Hunting arrives in two turns and elephants are improved immediately. After he finishes that elephants he will cottage the tile 1W of it. The 2nd elephants are not high priority at the moment.
    Two Axemen will be built, one in capital and another in Utica:


    Capital building another Axeman. This time I will grow to size 6 before whipping another settler:


    Workers begin to cottage riverside tiles:


    Workers cottaging land. Utica putting hammers into library will also whip settler at size 6 too:


    Capital is now size 5. Warrior on pigs will make his way south to capital for MP happiness. Worker prepares to chop/whip settler:


    Here are the tiles Utica is working. The city below will work the two cottages by it, giving Utica that extra FP this turn (not sure why it's on grassland there)


    Worker prepares to chop library/settler in Utica. Capital works on granary until size 6 then will switch to settler. Hadrum will work both those cottages:


    1280 BC Charlie asks me to stop trading with Monty which I decline:

     
  5. CGQ

    CGQ Warlord

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    Spoiler Part 2 to Turn 76 :

    From this point I went on to play to 100 BC. Problem was I didn't take a lot of pictures above so I ended up having to go back to 1880 BC and recreate every step I took above. In this one Charlie asked me in 1400 BC instead of 1280 BC. Everything above there is the first playthrough were I continued to 100 BC. Then I realized I got too ahead of myself and went back to 1880 BC to play and take more screenshots. Sorry for any confusion:


    Let's bust some barb archer skulls!


    On the same turns all cities get whipped. Capital gets 3-Pop whip for settler, Utica gets 3-Pop whip for settler and Hadrum gets 2-Pop whip for granary:




    Settler from capital goes up to settle Hippo on Turn 72, 1NE of corn. It will work the corn while capital recovers by working FP cottages:




    The first playthrough De Gaulle traded ALPHA for IW with me. The 2nd replay I couldn't get the jerk to trade it with me no matter what I did.
    Instead I had to gift Charly writing and next turn traded Charlie ALPHA for IW:


    Two source of Iron are revealed. Meanwhile the fish/rice city is settled on Turn 74:

    I will settle a 6th city 2N of that rice to grab iron and share rice while fish city works fish and runs scientists

    I 2-Pop whip Library in Utica:


    Workers chop half of a WB then improve the rice. I used two workers to speed up the process:


    Monty now comes to me to stop trading with Charlie. Who's side should I join?


    Overflow goes into granary at capital, the I will chop library there. I probably should've built the library sooner there though. Not sure if I'm late to it given the circumstances but let me know if I am:


    De Gaulle demands ALPHA which I give to him to hopefully makes him pleased (it did)


    And now Monty took the only source of horses. Welp. So much for a cuir rush...


    Stones and 2nd source of iron here, along with Charlie's border. He built the Great Wall:

    So to clear things up here's what happened:

    - After my last turn-set (41-48) where I stupidly whipped a granary and slow-built a settler (now I see why it's a big mistake) which Sampsa pointed out, I restarted back to turn 6 and replayed everything from there.
    The problem was that I didn't save the game between 1880 BC and 1280 BC. In 1320 BC I made a huge mistake and 3-Popped a library then slow-built/chopped a settler. Realizing that I went back and reloaded an autosave of that turn but forgot to save it. I played on to 100 BC and then realized I went too far. So I went back to the 1280 BC save only to find out it was saved after I whipped the library. I wanted to go back a turn and whip a settler instead but the only save before that was 1880 BC.

    Autosaves were deleted since they only went back to like 450 BC. I was pissed. I ended up replaying 1880-1280 BC had to retrace my steps using screenshots I took the first time around and came pretty close. I was in a slightly better position except for De Gaulle not wanting to trade IW. It's possible he demanded tribute the first time and not the second.

    Going Forward, I will upload the 100 BC save so you can look if I made any big mistakes or if I should just play on from that position. In the 100 BC save I founded Confucianism, used a GS to build an academy in capital, traded Monarchy and switched to CS+HR. Then I converted to Hinduism and converted to Bureau after getting Civil Service.
    That 100 BC save is after I begged to Monty (He was 1 turn away from DOW'ing me.). In 10 turns he's probably gonna attack so I don't know what to do here or if I should go back. The 975 BC save is my second playthrough. I also threw in 1440 BC just to see if there's any issues there.

     

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  6. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Not bad at all. That's the kind of tech rate most immortal players can't achieve in the BCs. :thumbsup: However, Monty is now an issue and will attack you in 9T. I'd use the stored :hammers: in Had to get walls and gather some axes/archers. You have an archer in capital and an axe in SE that should go to Had. He is far from construction so I think his army won't be huge, but you are lacking :hammers: too due to caste so it's not simple.

    I also think you are going too heavy on specialists, which hurts because your cities are not growing. For example Utica, running two scientist won't spawn a GS in a million years. I'd just cottage some riverside plains (they are +1:food: compared to scientists after all), the non-river grass, and keep growing as long as possible. Leptis should run a merchant, not an artist. Even the border pop had no value at all.

    In the early game, I think you were whipping a bit too hard. What I mean by that is that you were whipping away great tiles such as FIN cottaged floodplains and judging from the screenshot, had more improved tiles than you were working. To me, this suggests your worker management could've been improved. I'd say more chops instead of cottages (the mantra in this order: 1.improve food 2.chop 3.cottage 4.connect !) OR simply less whips. Your cap had no granary for a long time so just growing to :)/:health:-cap working cottages, slow building settlers was an option.
     
  7. Jarno

    Jarno Warlord

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    Good advice from @sampsa and @lymond is doing its job I see. To add some small advice:
    - Try to combine your workers when e.g. building cottages (t40-t45), this should give you the first cottage 2 turns earlier.
    - Let whip overflow/chops land into workers/settlers, but try to grow to happy cap otherwise (e.g. t72 where you're building a worker in your capital at size3). Especially when you're not working improved tiles because of stagnating your growth
     
  8. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Re 100 BC save:

    Your tech rate is nice but you're running too many specialists like sampsa said. For instance, Hippo could grow to size 10 but it's running 5 Scientists at size 7. Unless you've got Pyramids and are in Rep, you're better off building Fin cottages and growing to happy cap then maybe running scientists. Don't think Caste is helping you much since you probably couldn't be running much more than two Scientists per city anyways. Seeing that Monty is plotting, I definitely would have stayed in Slavery.

    Also IMO the Leptis location could have waited. You should have settled the Xochicalco location instead which would give you more land and also reduce border tension between you and that psychopath. The Leptis location can be backfilled later.
     
  9. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    I played to turn 103 (300 BC).

    Spoiler :

    8 cities. Didn't build any wonders. Forgot to garrison a unit in Had so it's now unhappy. Will probably whip a Worker there since I need to start roading as well in case I get attacked. Joao is plotting but not Monty. I think I'm the likely target of the Portuguese but I don't expect a big stack. Right now Monty is still Cautious and Charlie hates me for a different religion so I could be attacked on many sides which is kind of scary. Thinking to bribe Monty to go against Charlie or Joao if it's possible soon.





     
  10. CGQ

    CGQ Warlord

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    It's so confusing sometimes, because I don't know when I'm it's okay to slow-build settlers and when it's okay to whip them (last game I was told I was slow building them too much).

    Spoiler Turn 108 :


    Did mostly the same as before but this time I took dankok8's suggestion and built Leptis 1N of Dye. I beat Aztec's settler by 1 TURN!

    I got a bunch of gold (about 400) from Charlie which allowed me to tech to Math, Code of Laws and Calendar. I'm halfway through Civil Service. I'm currently in HR, should I convert to Bureau + CS or just Bureau? Also earlier Portugal demanded ALPHA, if I didn't give it to him he would plot then DOW me. If I give it to him then no red fist. This time around Monty is not a threat (at least not yet), maybe because there's not as much border tension as last time. The thing that also confuses me is, how am I going to get scientists to bulb EDU or ASTRO if I'm not in CS?


     

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  11. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I agree. It depends on several factors.
    • do you have a granary or not? If yes, avoid slow building like hell, doing it only if you've stacked a lot of unhappiness
    • does the city have a lot of strong tiles? If yes, avoid whipping, aim to work all strong tiles
    • what is the :)-cap? If very low, whipping won't be great and also granaries won't be great
     
  12. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    On T108 save: again, overall it looks pretty good! Diplo is much better which is pretty important. You are extremely low on workers though. I'd make two more asap. Some strange builds - Hippo has no good water tiles, so I wouldn't go for a lighthouse. I'd switch to worker, give corn to capital, take mine from capital. Yes, it's -1:food: for 4T but it's important to grow the capital. Kerkouane has no lighthouse, but it would've been more urgent than a library there. I'd immediately switch to lh, whip next turn. Also, since you've adopted a religion, I'd spread it to every city, well to at least every major city.

    Good question on caste. I'd say mass running specialists is rarely good without pacifism (and/or a golden age). That's why I rarely build an academy - rather bulb philo with my first GS. Here your capital is so good that an academy seems justifiable though. If you were closer to 2nd GS, I think I'd manually go philo after Civil Service and start a golden age. That's the main way to generate the scientists to win the lib race. Since the next GS is so far away, I think the golden age is off the table. So I think I'd again just manually go philo and double switch to caste+philo. Oh, you've recently switched to HR. That's a pretty big mistake, you should've waited to make a double switch when you have access to bureau...
     
  13. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    @CGQ

    You can get GS points without Caste by building the Great Library. It requires a very cheap Literature tech to enable it. You probably don't have Aesthetics which is a prerequisite but Aesth is a good tech to have anyways because it's good trade bait (and opens up a lot of good wonders for failgold but you don't need that here). After Lit, you can also get Music for a free Artist and a Golden Age but you may get beat to Music right now. Considering that you're already deep towards Civil Service, I'd probably adopt Caste but do so cautiously and be wary of any AI's plotting (red fist). Monty can plot at Pleased and Charlie will start to hate you due to different religion. It's only a matter of time. You should be wary of trading with people's worst enemies as well. In my game, Charlie is Monty's worst enemy so it's not wise to trade with him as it will piss Monty off.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  14. CGQ

    CGQ Warlord

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    Spoiler To Turn 129 :

    I went back and took Sampsa's suggestions on turn 108 then continued, Someone on the other continent already got Music in 025 BC so no free artist for me. I decided instead of teching AESTH I went for PHIL, then converted to CS + Pacifism. I whipped two monasteries and Hindu missionaries and spread Hinduism in capital. Most other main cities already have the religion. I know I messed up a bit waiting for the double switch but I don't want to replay those turns unless it costs me the game (I'll keep it in mind next game). I need to go to bed but I'll post more details tomorrow. In the meantime:


    Got Joao II to convert to Hinduism:



    I really can't wait to meet the AI on the other continent. Lots of Great Generals being born in far away lands, I'm curious who's at war with whom haha (Note: This was on a previous playthrough, where I tried to go for music, the other pics are me going for PHI)


    I'm curious whether this would be a good idea, I didn't do it but should I have? (Note: This was on a previous playthrough, where I tried to go for music, the other pics are me going for PHI)


    Now Charlie is the only one with his religion. Hopefully they'll all turn against him haha:


    Founded Taoism in 50 AD:


    I also traded CoL for Mono and 150 Gold to finish AESTH (I successfully begged France for 30 gold)


    I send off the Tao and Hindu missionaries to scout Charlie's land. This is his capital, where I successfully spread Hindu to him. Unfortunately he says not enough people follow the faith. Would be nice since then everyone would be peaceful:


    I used the 2nd GS to bulb the rest of Education. State of empire in 350 AD:


    De Gaulle spend 82 EP stealing Monotheism from me:



    Now what? This is where I always get stuck in many games. Was Education even a good idea? Should I have gone Optics then Double-Bulb Astro? I can tech Lib from here too. What should I lib? I don't have horses so Cuir rush is out of the question

    Normally I always go for Music, delay Lib, tech Nationalism, then tech Lib, pop Military Tradition, gunpowder, then cuir rush. Usually it'll be 1300-1400 AD by time I have my stack ready to attack which is pretty late I know. The other question is I know this capital is perfect for Oxford but something that always bugged me was how the hell do I build Universities fast? They cost so many hammers and take forever especially in high :food: low :hammers: cities. Same deal with Forges, when do I build those and how? Should all cities get those? (Normally I usually whip them but I'm in CS right now.) Then there's Oxford, how do I speed it up with no stone or trees to chop? By time it's built it's like 1000 AD on most of my games. This is where I usually hit my crossroads. So many questions lol, I appreciate anyone who can answer them.

    I uploaded 350 AD. Is this a good position? I'm willing to replay these last turns otherwise. My borders expanded on some southern cities giving me some free cottages and another source of dye.

    On an interesting side note, Charlie and De Gaulle revealed Asoka as another AI! No wonder I lost music so soon! He's their worst enemy. Strange I haven't met him yet, could be a southern continent near them or an island chain of some sort:


     

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  15. migalhone

    migalhone Warlord

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    @CGQ you have iron, so cannons are a possibility. 12:strength: plus collateral damage = very strong.
     
  16. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I think astro would've been a bad idea. Only three AIs unmet and if you've seen a lot of GGs born they will be very backwards. I think the Lib-line was best, doesn't matter much if you go Nat or Edu first - you do nothing with either of them. You don't have horses, but can you get them? Yes, you can, and I would certainly go for cuirs. Looking at the <F4>-screen your trading game could be improved quite a bit. No need to have the capital :yuck: since you can get clam in trade. Horse is so expensive I wouldn't buy it now, only when you are 1T away from libbing MT. I think once you have MT the price goes up.

    • Oxford: I never build it. Way way too expensive (not the Ox itself, but the 6 universities), only for space games, or perhaps in isolation games (or with PHI leader). I think the main issue is that at that stage of the game many things (like cuirs) pay back so much better
    • forges: I rarely build if going for cuirs. Many like them, but I think it's not a big deal either way. I just rather start the war asap even if forges would pay back nicely in the long run. Once you are in caste+paci, you no longer have a choice to build them :)
    • music: I wouldn't usually go for the aesth-line without marble. Unlucky here that it seems you get nothing via trade
    • cuirs: 1300-1400AD attack is very late. I think you are heading for 1000AD cuirs here, a lot better. On deity it's a bit faster due to trades

    Not bad. I think mistakes were made earlier (not enough workers, not enough cottages, not enough growth) but you shouldn't worry about it now.

    Yep, this is why on fractal you should nearly always have a scouting work boat out at some point. Or even a 2-mover scouting by the coast to see if there is need to scout the possible islands. Maybe even build the wb now in Thapsus, as Asoka is likely behind deGaulle.

    Thoughts on current position
    • stop building workshops. They are awful and will be awful for a long time. Your workers still have things to do, like chop the jungle under ivory, cottage Utica (plains river tiles), improve gems that you claim next turn and so on
    • take spices and clam via trade
    • next GS can bulb liberalism if you get compass, hopefully via trade. Next :gp: should be merchants, scientists are worse post-liberalism
    • city management (some screenshots)
    Spoiler :
    Keep growing the capital. Bureau boosts tiles, not specialists so don't run any specs here. I'd have built an aqueduct a long time ago, but :yuck: is tolerable. Not sure what the settler is for. In general, a strong capital is the place to build some buildings (yes, I know I've said many times buildings suck ;)). I'd have built monasteries, their bang for buck is equal to universities (60:hammers: for +10% vs. 150:hammers: for 25%) better than universities (60:hammers: for +10% vs. 200:hammers: for 25%). Forge, aqueduct. Not a huge deal, but something to keep in mind for the future.

    Civ4ScreenShot0250.JPG

    Kerkouane is the best spot you have for specialists (has food, doesn't have river for cottages), yet you haven't ran any here. I'd run merchants now and even if the GM will be a bit late, it's great for upgrading HAs->cuirs.

    Civ4ScreenShot0251.JPG

    A weak city, but would be much better if you irrigated the rice. Working those mines is not great, but not much better available. In your save you are running an artist, but that's moot. The city gains nothing from border pop.

    Civ4ScreenShot0252.JPG

    Even if this city is not great for specialists at all, it wasn't a bad call to first use the city to grow floodplains cottages for capital, then get a GS out. I'd give all the cottages to capital now and run -2:food: until you spawn the GS. By then you should have some more cottages built.

    Civ4ScreenShot0253.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  17. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    You are looking at very early Liberalism so you could research Gunpowder and Chemistry then get Steel from Liberalism for very early Cannons. As an alternative to Cuirassiers that is but those should work fine if you trade for Horse.
     
  18. CGQ

    CGQ Warlord

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    As much as I like Cuirs, I rarely used the steel cannons and would really like to try them out. If I go with those, should I use them with musketmen or tech to rifling? I know cannons are very powerful even with elephants or mace men.
     
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  19. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    You can use warriors with cannons..jk..just go with whatever you got..Muskets/Maces...Rifles will be great later too.
     
  20. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    My Update at Turn 128 (325 AD).

    Spoiler :

    Had to make a detour to Feudalism because Charlie started plotting and I knew I was his target but then he cancelled the war plans. For some reason, Monty and De Gaulle refuse to attack Charlie. His power is a bit higher but they hate him and that's never stopped Monty before? In my game Portuguese took Buddhism so they form a block with Charlie. After Education, my plan is Gunpower, Chem, then Lib and grab Steel as a free tech make Cannons with a few Muskets and kick Charlie's ass. Nobody is willing to trade Horse in my game.





     

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