[BTS] My First Immortal Game with Hannibal
- Thread starter CGQ
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I think it's more important to get the Settlers out quickly and found the good city sites then to lay cottages a few turns sooner. You could have done a bit better job scouting too maybe.
Anyways funny enough, I also played to turn 48 (2080 BC). You can read my spoiler as I don't think there is anything too spoily in there. I didn't reveal Iron or Horses yet but I did explore the surroundings a bit more although I didn't find any AI's yet. I'm surprised they are that far considering it's a standard sized map (?) with extra AI's.
Anyways funny enough, I also played to turn 48 (2080 BC). You can read my spoiler as I don't think there is anything too spoily in there. I didn't reveal Iron or Horses yet but I did explore the surroundings a bit more although I didn't find any AI's yet. I'm surprised they are that far considering it's a standard sized map (?) with extra AI's.
Spoiler :
but Colossus makes it even better 2
CGQ
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Not bad at all. That's the kind of tech rate most immortal players can't achieve in the BCs. 
However, Monty is now an issue and will attack you in 9T. I'd use the stored 
in Had to get walls and gather some axes/archers. You have an archer in capital and an axe in SE that should go to Had. He is far from construction so I think his army won't be huge, but you are lacking too due to caste so it's not simple.
I also think you are going too heavy on specialists, which hurts because your cities are not growing. For example Utica, running two scientist won't spawn a GS in a million years. I'd just cottage some riverside plains (they are +1
compared to scientists after all), the non-river grass, and keep growing as long as possible. Leptis should run a merchant, not an artist. Even the border pop had no value at all.
In the early game, I think you were whipping a bit too hard. What I mean by that is that you were whipping away great tiles such as FIN cottaged floodplains and judging from the screenshot, had more improved tiles than you were working. To me, this suggests your worker management could've been improved. I'd say more chops instead of cottages (the mantra in this order: 1.improve food 2.chop 3.cottage 4.connect !) OR simply less whips. Your cap had no granary for a long time so just growing to
/
-cap working cottages, slow building settlers was an option.
However, Monty is now an issue and will attack you in 9T. I'd use the stored in Had to get walls and gather some axes/archers. You have an archer in capital and an axe in SE that should go to Had. He is far from construction so I think his army won't be huge, but you are lacking too due to caste so it's not simple.I also think you are going too heavy on specialists, which hurts because your cities are not growing. For example Utica, running two scientist won't spawn a GS in a million years. I'd just cottage some riverside plains (they are +1
compared to scientists after all), the non-river grass, and keep growing as long as possible. Leptis should run a merchant, not an artist. Even the border pop had no value at all.In the early game, I think you were whipping a bit too hard. What I mean by that is that you were whipping away great tiles such as FIN cottaged floodplains and judging from the screenshot, had more improved tiles than you were working. To me, this suggests your worker management could've been improved. I'd say more chops instead of cottages (the mantra in this order: 1.improve food 2.chop 3.cottage 4.connect !) OR simply less whips. Your cap had no granary for a long time so just growing to
/-cap working cottages, slow building settlers was an option.
Jarno
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Good advice from @sampsa and @lymond is doing its job I see. To add some small advice:
- Try to combine your workers when e.g. building cottages (t40-t45), this should give you the first cottage 2 turns earlier.
- Let whip overflow/chops land into workers/settlers, but try to grow to happy cap otherwise (e.g. t72 where you're building a worker in your capital at size3). Especially when you're not working improved tiles because of stagnating your growth
- Try to combine your workers when e.g. building cottages (t40-t45), this should give you the first cottage 2 turns earlier.
- Let whip overflow/chops land into workers/settlers, but try to grow to happy cap otherwise (e.g. t72 where you're building a worker in your capital at size3). Especially when you're not working improved tiles because of stagnating your growth
Re 100 BC save:
Your tech rate is nice but you're running too many specialists like sampsa said. For instance, Hippo could grow to size 10 but it's running 5 Scientists at size 7. Unless you've got Pyramids and are in Rep, you're better off building Fin cottages and growing to happy cap then maybe running scientists. Don't think Caste is helping you much since you probably couldn't be running much more than two Scientists per city anyways. Seeing that Monty is plotting, I definitely would have stayed in Slavery.
Also IMO the Leptis location could have waited. You should have settled the Xochicalco location instead which would give you more land and also reduce border tension between you and that psychopath. The Leptis location can be backfilled later.
Your tech rate is nice but you're running too many specialists like sampsa said. For instance, Hippo could grow to size 10 but it's running 5 Scientists at size 7. Unless you've got Pyramids and are in Rep, you're better off building Fin cottages and growing to happy cap then maybe running scientists. Don't think Caste is helping you much since you probably couldn't be running much more than two Scientists per city anyways. Seeing that Monty is plotting, I definitely would have stayed in Slavery.
Also IMO the Leptis location could have waited. You should have settled the Xochicalco location instead which would give you more land and also reduce border tension between you and that psychopath. The Leptis location can be backfilled later.
CGQ
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Not bad at all. That's the kind of tech rate most immortal players can't achieve in the BCs.
I also think you are going too heavy on specialists, which hurts because your cities are not growing. For example Utica, running two scientist won't spawn a GS in a million years. I'd just cottage some riverside plains (they are +1
In the early game, I think you were whipping a bit too hard. What I mean by that is that you were whipping away great tiles such as FIN cottaged floodplains and judging from the screenshot, had more improved tiles than you were working. To me, this suggests your worker management could've been improved. I'd say more chops instead of cottages (the mantra in this order: 1.improve food 2.chop 3.cottage 4.connect !) OR simply less whips. Your cap had no granary for a long time so just growing to
It's so confusing sometimes, because I don't know when I'm it's okay to slow-build settlers and when it's okay to whip them (last game I was told I was slow building them too much).
Spoiler Turn 108 :
I agree. It depends on several factors.
- do you have a granary or not? If yes, avoid slow building like hell, doing it only if you've stacked a lot of unhappiness
- does the city have a lot of strong tiles? If yes, avoid whipping, aim to work all strong tiles
- what is the -cap? If very low, whipping won't be great and also granaries won't be great
On T108 save: again, overall it looks pretty good! Diplo is much better which is pretty important. You are extremely low on workers though. I'd make two more asap. Some strange builds - Hippo has no good water tiles, so I wouldn't go for a lighthouse. I'd switch to worker, give corn to capital, take mine from capital. Yes, it's -1 for 4T but it's important to grow the capital. Kerkouane has no lighthouse, but it would've been more urgent than a library there. I'd immediately switch to lh, whip next turn. Also, since you've adopted a religion, I'd spread it to every city, well to at least every major city.
Good question on caste. I'd say mass running specialists is rarely good without pacifism (and/or a golden age). That's why I rarely build an academy - rather bulb philo with my first GS. Here your capital is so good that an academy seems justifiable though. If you were closer to 2nd GS, I think I'd manually go philo after Civil Service and start a golden age. That's the main way to generate the scientists to win the lib race. Since the next GS is so far away, I think the golden age is off the table. So I think I'd again just manually go philo and double switch to caste+philo. Oh, you've recently switched to HR. That's a pretty big mistake, you should've waited to make a double switch when you have access to bureau...
for 4T but it's important to grow the capital. Kerkouane has no lighthouse, but it would've been more urgent than a library there. I'd immediately switch to lh, whip next turn. Also, since you've adopted a religion, I'd spread it to every city, well to at least every major city. Good question on caste. I'd say mass running specialists is rarely good without pacifism (and/or a golden age). That's why I rarely build an academy - rather bulb philo with my first GS. Here your capital is so good that an academy seems justifiable though. If you were closer to 2nd GS, I think I'd manually go philo after Civil Service and start a golden age. That's the main way to generate the scientists to win the lib race. Since the next GS is so far away, I think the golden age is off the table. So I think I'd again just manually go philo and double switch to caste+philo. Oh, you've recently switched to HR. That's a pretty big mistake, you should've waited to make a double switch when you have access to bureau...
@CGQ
You can get GS points without Caste by building the Great Library. It requires a very cheap Literature tech to enable it. You probably don't have Aesthetics which is a prerequisite but Aesth is a good tech to have anyways because it's good trade bait (and opens up a lot of good wonders for failgold but you don't need that here). After Lit, you can also get Music for a free Artist and a Golden Age but you may get beat to Music right now. Considering that you're already deep towards Civil Service, I'd probably adopt Caste but do so cautiously and be wary of any AI's plotting (red fist). Monty can plot at Pleased and Charlie will start to hate you due to different religion. It's only a matter of time. You should be wary of trading with people's worst enemies as well. In my game, Charlie is Monty's worst enemy so it's not wise to trade with him as it will piss Monty off.
You can get GS points without Caste by building the Great Library. It requires a very cheap Literature tech to enable it. You probably don't have Aesthetics which is a prerequisite but Aesth is a good tech to have anyways because it's good trade bait (and opens up a lot of good wonders for failgold but you don't need that here). After Lit, you can also get Music for a free Artist and a Golden Age but you may get beat to Music right now. Considering that you're already deep towards Civil Service, I'd probably adopt Caste but do so cautiously and be wary of any AI's plotting (red fist). Monty can plot at Pleased and Charlie will start to hate you due to different religion. It's only a matter of time. You should be wary of trading with people's worst enemies as well. In my game, Charlie is Monty's worst enemy so it's not wise to trade with him as it will piss Monty off.
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CGQ
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plus collateral damage = very strong.I think astro would've been a bad idea. Only three AIs unmet and if you've seen a lot of GGs born they will be very backwards. I think the Lib-line was best, doesn't matter much if you go Nat or Edu first - you do nothing with either of them. You don't have horses, but can you get them? Yes, you can, and I would certainly go for cuirs. Looking at the <F4>-screen your trading game could be improved quite a bit. No need to have the capital
since you can get clam in trade. Horse is so expensive I wouldn't buy it now, only when you are 1T away from libbing MT. I think once you have MT the price goes up.Normally I always go for Music, delay Lib, tech Nationalism, then tech Lib, pop Military Tradition, gunpowder, then cuir rush. Usually it'll be 1300-1400 AD by time I have my stack ready to attack which is pretty late I know. The other question is I know this capital is perfect for Oxford but something that always bugged me was how the hell do I build Universities fast? They cost so many hammers and take forever especially in high
- Oxford: I never build it. Way way too expensive (not the Ox itself, but the 6 universities), only for space games, or perhaps in isolation games (or with PHI leader). I think the main issue is that at that stage of the game many things (like cuirs) pay back so much better
- forges: I rarely build if going for cuirs. Many like them, but I think it's not a big deal either way. I just rather start the war asap even if forges would pay back nicely in the long run. Once you are in caste+paci, you no longer have a choice to build them
- music: I wouldn't usually go for the aesth-line without marble. Unlucky here that it seems you get nothing via trade
- cuirs: 1300-1400AD attack is very late. I think you are heading for 1000AD cuirs here, a lot better. On deity it's a bit faster due to trades
Not bad. I think mistakes were made earlier (not enough workers, not enough cottages, not enough growth) but you shouldn't worry about it now.
Yep, this is why on fractal you should nearly always have a scouting work boat out at some point. Or even a 2-mover scouting by the coast to see if there is need to scout the possible islands. Maybe even build the wb now in Thapsus, as Asoka is likely behind deGaulle.
Thoughts on current position
- stop building workshops. They are awful and will be awful for a long time. Your workers still have things to do, like chop the jungle under ivory, cottage Utica (plains river tiles), improve gems that you claim next turn and so on
- take spices and clam via trade
- next GS can bulb liberalism if you get compass, hopefully via trade. Next
should be merchants, scientists are worse post-liberalism - city management (some screenshots)
Spoiler :
). I'd have built monasteries, their bang for buck is
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You are looking at very early Liberalism so you could research Gunpowder and Chemistry then get Steel from Liberalism for very early Cannons. As an alternative to Cuirassiers that is but those should work fine if you trade for Horse.
CGQ
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I think astro would've been a bad idea. Only three AIs unmet and if you've seen a lot of GGs born they will be very backwards. I think the Lib-line was best, doesn't matter much if you go Nat or Edu first - you do nothing with either of them. You don't have horses, but can you get them? Yes, you can, and I would certainly go for cuirs. Looking at the <F4>-screen your trading game could be improved quite a bit. No need to have the capital
- Oxford: I never build it. Way way too expensive (not the Ox itself, but the 6 universities), only for space games, or perhaps in isolation games (or with PHI leader). I think the main issue is that at that stage of the game many things (like cuirs) pay back so much better
- forges: I rarely build if going for cuirs. Many like them, but I think it's not a big deal either way. I just rather start the war asap even if forges would pay back nicely in the long run. Once you are in caste+paci, you no longer have a choice to build them
- music: I wouldn't usually go for the aesth-line without marble. Unlucky here that it seems you get nothing via trade
- cuirs: 1300-1400AD attack is very late. I think you are heading for 1000AD cuirs here, a lot better. On deity it's a bit faster due to trades
Not bad. I think mistakes were made earlier (not enough workers, not enough cottages, not enough growth) but you shouldn't worry about it now.
Yep, this is why on fractal you should nearly always have a scouting work boat out at some point. Or even a 2-mover scouting by the coast to see if there is need to scout the possible islands. Maybe even build the wb now in Thapsus, as Asoka is likely behind deGaulle.
Thoughts on current position
- stop building workshops. They are awful and will be awful for a long time. Your workers still have things to do, like chop the jungle under ivory, cottage Utica (plains river tiles), improve gems that you claim next turn and so on
- take spices and clam via trade
- next GS can bulb liberalism if you get compass, hopefully via trade. Next
- city management (some screenshots)
Spoiler :
As much as I like Cuirs, I rarely used the steel cannons and would really like to try them out. If I go with those, should I use them with musketmen or tech to rifling? I know cannons are very powerful even with elephants or mace men.
