[BTS] My First Immortal Game with Hannibal

[CGQ]

I would replay from more like 350AD or sooner. I'm really baffled by some cities here like the jungle still on that ivory at the time, while workers are off building - at the time - workshops. You need to tighten up your worker management and city management.

I think you lost focus around the early ADs. Your Edu date was not bad but not sure if you could have also produced more great people early on.

No, barracks are not essential buildings at all. I might build barracks in strong cities that I know while produce a lot of units but they are by no means essential.

Try a little trick in the lead up to Lib>Steel of queuing up Trebs in all your cities and then have them convert to Cannons. Meanwhile having start support units along the way like Muskies/Pikes and whip into them.

To 1510 AD. Some unfortunate events but in a good position and the other thread inspired me to go for a Space Win here. I think the occasion may be perfect.

Spoiler :

Decided I didn't need to wait for Rifling and was just gonna hit with Cannons + Elephants/Cuirs. Anyways Charlie declared again maybe 5-6 turns before I was ready but I had about 10 Cannons + a few Eles, 1 Pike and other classical junk. This is what I mean that softening up by Cannons is insane... My Axe was getting 98.4% odds after the Cannons did work.

Anyways Monty finished his work with Joao and capped him so I thought to myself why not and bribed him to attack Charlie for like Drama or something. Sooner rather than later:

Yep the man is Friendly and got up as high as +18. I did a rough calculation and if he caps every AI he still won't have enough land for Domination. Anyway my army of Cannon + Cuirs swooped in and took two of Charlie's cities (one more Joao took from under my nose). I saw a big Monty SOD about to attack Charlie's capital which I knew would lead to Charlie capping to him so I took peace for a lot of gold. I also had a GM from being first to Economics which gave my economy a needed boost during the war.

Stupid Monty failed to take his capital and just took white peace. Oh well he'll be back with a fresh stack in as few as 10 turns. Poor Charlie! Then again, I wanted Monty to succeed so my conquests would be rid of Charlie's culture. Charlie had a lot of units in capital Aachen and the fighting was insane. 2 GG's for Charlie and 1 GG for Monty during the siege!

Anyways as soon as Monty signed peace...

And the tech screen looks pretty good.

Spoiler My Plan :

Beeline Rocketry and in the meantime complete Forges and Ironworks in Carthage. Monty will be busy dragging the world into wars which I'm pretty cool with since it has been slowing the global tech rate quite a bit. I'll put my army on the east coast because Saladin is already sending mean faces across the ocean.

Spoiler Turn 240 :

It is now 1650 AD. I have finally conquered Charly and wiped him out:

My tech rate and economy jumped right back up as soon as I finished Charly off. Problem is I think I've fallen pretty far behind, Joao already has electricity and I barely even have Physics. Could I catch up or should I just quit?
Also I'm not sure if I'm the only one but after a while games just get to the point were I want it to be over. Like I just want to start a new one and have a fresh start, when times are more simple haha.

I took Charly out with an army of over 25 cannons and 30-40 riflemen that I upgraded from muskies. What should I do next here? Should I try to conquer the Aztecs or Portugal? Monty declared on India and he became friendly with me. I feel like it's so late though, I thought I would have control of the whole continent by 1300 AD and it's 1650 AD and I have more AI to kill, two of which are way too advanced. Did I do something wrong or should I keep playing this?

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

I'm the opposite-the first ~50 moves, while the most important in the game, are by far the least fun for me. Probably since I've been playing the game off-and-on since it came out. I much prefer having the empire somewhat built and going from there. I'm at the point where I hate the early tech tree since I've seen it so much.

 

[CGQ]

I would replay from more like 350AD or sooner. I'm really baffled by some cities here like the jungle still on that ivory at the time, while workers are off building - at the time - workshops. You need to tighten up your worker management and city management.

I think you lost focus around the early ADs. Your Edu date was not bad but not sure if you could have also produced more great people early on.

No, barracks are not essential buildings at all. I might build barracks in strong cities that I know while produce a lot of units but they are by no means essential.

Try a little trick in the lead up to Lib>Steel of queuing up Trebs in all your cities and then have them convert to Cannons. Meanwhile having start support units along the way like Muskies/Pikes and whip into them.

It's 1838 AD now. I hate this game. I must've done something very wrong since Portugal is running away in tech and I'm behind even though my BPT is pretty high. The fact that it's 1838 makes me feel like something's off, since I feel I should've already won centuries ago and somehow I'm in the same position I'd be in previous games

 

[lymond]

CGQ - I think that you lost focus on the game quite some time ago and are not playing to win. How did you plan on winning the game? It's 1838 and you stopped the war machine ages ago. Very difficult to win space on this level if a) you don't build Ox or b) you just keep on killing. Otherwise, keep the fight going. Right now, it just looks like you are just twiddling your thumbs here with no plan or motivation...and honestly all that should have come sooner.

Why even bother taking all of HRE. Just take enough/kill enough to cap him asap and move on to the next guy. Chuckie can tech stuff for you and you can boost him up militarily to be effective.

 

[lymond]

CG - I want to add a couple more thoughts since my last post was not necessarily all that "encouraging". The fact is that you are learning. This is a "process", and I think you have started the process of ridding yourself of some of the bad habits that existed in your gameplay (such as totally destroying a lovely bureau cap ), while picking up some additional concepts and mechanics. I think the key now is even more focus on fine tuning that early gameplay/micromanagement, gpp focus and bulb strategies, and overall just being more aggressive with formulating and executing a plan to actually win the game. Eventually all the pieces will fall in to place allowing you to experience more success. It will take more games and more practice.

 

[CGQ]

CGQ - I think that you lost focus on the game quite some time ago and are not playing to win. How did you plan on winning the game? It's 1838 and you stopped the war machine ages ago. Very difficult to win space on this level if a) you don't build Ox or b) you just keep on killing. Otherwise, keep the fight going. Right now, it just looks like you are just twiddling your thumbs here with no plan or motivation...and honestly all that should have come sooner.

Why even bother taking all of HRE. Just take enough/kill enough to cap him asap and move on to the next guy. Chuckie can tech stuff for you and you can boost him up militarily to be effective.

I did build Ox in the game (like around 1700 AD) but I don't know if that's good. I thought vassaling is bad because of the whole "motherland" thing. When is it more effective to just take them out in one go?

 

[dankok8]

@lymond

To be honest, many players and sometimes myself included actually often mess up later in the game just losing focus. This forum generally has so many resources for the first 100 turns. Some players even more or less memorize builds and tech orders for typical starts and master the Liberalism beeline etc. but many of their games actually fizzle out in the Renaissance if they can't really snowball and take out 2 AI's quickly like for example on this map where it's difficult to run away with the game; no Horse for Cuirs, militarily strong and unfriendly neighbors. I didn't get bogged down in wars as much as the OP and have a healthy tech lead with 10 cities but I still don't have Oxford past 1500 AD so I doubt Space is doable because those AI's will start catching up fast. And Space is the only path because Monty is too strong militarily, culture is impossible, diplo is impossible cuz Monty has too much pop. I would claim that I'm actually in the position now (and @CGQ may be as well) where I need more guidance in the mid to late game. Basically post-Lib if I'm not going for military (Steel then Rifling then Arty) what should I be researching? I sometimes wonder that. I'm on a five game winning streak on Immortal now but some games I've reloaded and replayed some turns so I don't consider that true mastery. And I also haven't had success yet on different types of starts (isolated, islands etc.).

 

[CGQ]

CG - I want to add a couple more thoughts since my last post was not necessarily all that "encouraging". The fact is that you are learning. This is a "process", and I think you have started the process of ridding yourself of some of the bad habits that existed in your gameplay (such as totally destroying a lovely bureau cap ), while picking up some additional concepts and mechanics. I think the key now is even more focus on fine tuning that early gameplay/micromanagement, gpp focus and bulb strategies, and overall just being more aggressive with formulating and executing a plan to actually win the game. Eventually all the pieces will fall in to place allowing you to experience more success. It will take more games and more practice.

Thank you very much for the encouragement! I can't wait to start my next immortal game here, I already have the start and boy is it a tough one haha. This game is really fun when you're actually winning and really gets boring when you're losing

 

[CGQ]

CGQ - I think that you lost focus on the game quite some time ago and are not playing to win. How did you plan on winning the game? It's 1838 and you stopped the war machine ages ago. Very difficult to win space on this level if a) you don't build Ox or b) you just keep on killing. Otherwise, keep the fight going. Right now, it just looks like you are just twiddling your thumbs here with no plan or motivation...and honestly all that should have come sooner.

Why even bother taking all of HRE. Just take enough/kill enough to cap him asap and move on to the next guy. Chuckie can tech stuff for you and you can boost him up militarily to be effective.

Spoiler 1806 AD Final Attempt :

This game is hell. It's so time consuming and addictive, like I just want to get good at it and "I'm just gonna play a few turns" becomes a long game session where it's 10 pm, and next thing you know it's 3 am. When I say this game is hell, I mean this map (I still love CIV 4!) I took your advice, lymond. I capped Charly as soon as I could and went on to attack Portugal. Man I don't think I cursed this much in a long time (So many times I said F this). If I even move my stack I lose the city I just captured. The infantry/cannon's 1-tile movement is so slow it just drags on and on and then on top of that Joao beating me to Artilery! How is it possible that he techs so fast?! I remember being so far ahead of him earlier this game! Why doesn't he capitulate after I take 4 of his cities? And the revolts...don't get me started on those. Now I remember why I like killing off the AI, because revolts are a serious pain. This game is just impossible at this point. I don't know what I could do better at this point. Man immortal is no joke in this game. I can't even imagine what's in store for me in Deity!

I feel like a failure. Where did I go wrong?

P.S. I never liked Joao II as an AI but now I really can't stand him

 

[lymond]

Spoiler 1806 AD Final Attempt :

It's so time consuming and addictive, like I just want to get good at it and "I'm just gonna play a few turns" becomes a long game session where it's 10 pm, and next thing you know it's 3 am.

Look at the date under my avatar, I've been playing this game about a year or so longer than that date . It never gets old for me.

At this point I've lost the plot on this game. Hard to gauge exactly what you may or may not done wrong on these play-thrus. I still think that Monty is the guy that needed to go down here, with DG as basically a free vassal once he breaks away. Once you've sewn up Chuck, Monty, and DG, you could probably ignore Joao and go conquer the backward guys overseas and Asoka and win the game without touching Joao.

Anyway, I generally prefer mounted warfare, though you did not have that option here. Still, I saw these game going much more in your favor early on.

HRE? Give him back most or all of his cities. Basically he becomes a meat shield or distraction for the enemies, while likely being a decent techer for you. (you can control what a vassal techs for you)

Joao is not capping probably due to a few things but you likely don't have the net war success to cap him. Sounds like he's won some battles and taken cities back. And I don't know what the deal with Augsburg is there.

Another thing, you seem to almost completely ignore resource trading.

 

[lymond]

Forgot to mention that I think it's time to start a new game and leave this one be for now. A new game allows for more reinforcement of earlier concepts and trying some new strategies out while building on the stuff you already learned.

 

[CGQ]

Forgot to mention that I think it's time to start a new game and leave this one be for now. A new game allows for more reinforcement of earlier concepts and trying some new strategies out while building on the stuff you already learned.

Just started the new one:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/my-2nd-immortal-game-with-saladin-immortal-game-2.660438/

I will go back and try to win this one hopefully after the 2nd game, when I learn more concepts.

 

[Fish Man]

Just started the new one:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/my-2nd-immortal-game-with-saladin-immortal-game-2.660438/

I will go back and try to win this one hopefully after the 2nd game, when I learn more concepts.

If you'd like to see, l can win a sub-t250 science victory on this map to demonstrate how to play the mid and late games.

 

[dankok8]

If you'd like to see, l can win a sub-t250 science victory on this map to demonstrate how to play the mid and late games.

I definitely want to see. Before turn 250 is 1600's folks...

 

[Fish Man]

@dankok8 @CGQ

t141 update

Spoiler :

Just libbed MT, and have gunpowder and HBR already. Almost done with building HE; now I can go wild with the cuirs. I should be easily able to roll over my continent with them, and from then on it's simcity to space.

My early-game strategy was a bit...unusual. Because the starting area was so bad (capital was good, but the rest was mostly just jungle and desert), I opted to send 2 settlers faaaar out to claim at least SOME strong resources in the jungle, securing myself horses and gems, among other things. It was a gutsy move, but it did gave me a LOT more land to work with and, most importantly, almost double the food to whip from when I start prepping for war (2 extra corn, a grass cow, and a banana translate to much, much higher production potential than just the food settled by some other players). Perhaps most importantly, I denied quite a lot of valuable land to Joao and Monty, culling their teching and production power and preventing any runaways from vassaling someone or becoming a problem. This took a toll on my economy but I managed to stay afloat by spamming fin FP cottages in the cap. From then on, I teched alpha (don't trust the AIs to do it), traded for IW, and got to work clearing the swaths of jungle.

Spoiler :

I actually reached civil service fairly early (t110), and that really boosted my economy with buro. Got some pretty good trades going, though had to build culture and run artists during a golden age in Utica to keep grabby Joao and his wonder-filled cities from eating up my tiles. Monty kept knocking for tribute every couple dozen turns, but that actually was just fine by me. This meant that, due to the peace treaty, whenever he plotted I could be certain it wasn't me (he declared once on De Gaulle, and some time later was dogpiled by Joao/Charlie). And he was so hopelessly behind that I didn't mind giving him outdated junk like CoL when I was already researching education and whatnot.

Spoiler :

From participation in the Buddhist lovefest I was able to get some VERY juicy trades, including feudalism, nationalism, metal casting, and machinery - all without giving away education. After libbing MT I am just about to whip two dozen cuirs and give my "friends" a world of hurt, while they're preoccupied with a very backwards and isolated Monty .

Spoiler :

The tech situation - I am disgustingly ahead.

Spoiler :

 

[Fish Man]

One more thing...we all think Civ to be a game of purely strategic and not mechanical skill (i.e. how well you can move or react or aim, with a mouse and keyboard, as in a shooter). But on playing through this save one way (that I later decided to replay because I didn't want to give away education), I HAVE found an element of IV that tests how well you can precisely move your mouse in such a manner. If you finish researching lib, before the turn processes fully, you can still click on a leader's name to trade for techs. However, once the "choose a free tech" option pops up, you can no longer contact other leaders or trade. This means that you can research something, trade for a tech that is unlocked by what you researched, and then lib a tech that is unlocked by that on the same turn, if you manage to quickly open the trade menu before the lib message pops up! As a concrete example, you can research philosophy, trade for nationalism, and then lib MT on the same turn, if you're lucky enough to have a friendly AI willing to feed that to you (or Mansa).

 

[dankok8]

@Fish Man

Fantastic! Settling all that jungle was definitely forward thinking. I did that in another game and actually self-teched Iron Working and damn am I glad I did. Sometimes the only good land is under the jungle and by refusing to settle it you deny yourself land while giving your enemies more. Generally it's better to avoid jungle and let the AI settle and develop it but sometimes you can only build 3-4 decent cities without settling the jungle.

To be fair, I also had a massive tech lead at the same stage of the game and could have reached Cuirs around the same date but with only 8 cities with much less food and with Monty at 10 cities.

Had no idea about the Lib trade trick! That is golden stuff for real my man.

 

[Fish Man]

The finale:

Spoiler :

This was a bit disappointing because I really didn't feel like playing this to a space win and spend hours on micro (I'm just particularly drained these days), when I could just hit end turn a few times to finish it. Still, though, I believe I have demonstrated well enough the brutal effectiveness of a well-timed cuir rush.

It took me about 18 turns of buildup to amass a proper number of units (about 30 or so) to take on the first AI.

t159 I declare on Joao. Destroy his stack the first turn. From then on it was smooth sailing. At this point I was still whipping cuirs like mad, especially in my HE city, where I calculated it so that every other cuir was a 2-pop whip which overflowed into being able to complete the next unit in one turn (so, 2 cuirs every 3 turns from MT until the end of the game).

Spoiler :

t167, less than 10 turns later, I cap Joao and instantly declare on Charlie. His army is a bit more formidable but by luring medieval units into the open and then flanking with cuirs I killed 50+ units without a single loss in one turn (GSpy was added in worldbuilder to show the size of his stack, and then later an unedited save of the same turn was loaded). From then on I blitzed his entire empire in half a dozen or so turns.

Spoiler :

t172, Charlie is capped and from then on it was just cleanup. Monty and De Gaulle were so backwards and weak they lacked feudalism and guilds, respectively; my combat 3 + march cuirs rolled over them both in under a dozen turns without stopping.

Spoiler :

Aaaaand...domination instead of space because it was 2am and did I really want to pull another all-nighter for no reason?

Spoiler :

Ah well, it was a forgone conclusion at this point. At least I showed how to get a sub-t200 dom win out of this very tricky start.

@CGQ - I hope this demonstrates how many units you need to war effectively on immortal, and how to build up your army and plan your attacks for maximum efficiency.

 

[Fish Man]

@CGQ @dankok8

I can demonstrate how to space in another save if you so desire to see, but the gist of it is:

1. Conquer 4-5% below the dom limit with cuirs, cannons, etc. as normal

2. Get communism, adopt SP/caste/free religion/rep ASAP (preferably with golden age)

3. Get steam power for levees, AL for factories (do NOT build coal plants), then electricity for more commerce

4. Beeline plastics for TGD - this will save you thousands of hammers and dozens of health if you can build or rush it somewhere

5. Get superconductors for labs

6. IW in your highest-production city, then rocketry and Apollo in your IW city

7. Start your thrusters as soon as Apollo finishes

8. Fusion for the GE that, if you plan things right, will complete your last golden age; engines in relatively high production cities (and cockpit anywhere; that thing's pretty cheap)

9. Composites (thru satellites) for docking bay and casings

10. Genetics, and build the stasis chamber in your IW city

11. Ecology, and then life support in your 2nd highest production city

If you time things right, all the final SS parts should finish about the same time, and there should be only 75-90 turns between communism and the space win. It is possible to win space sub-t250 given a strong leader on, I'd say, roughly 50% of fractal maps on immortal.

 

[dankok8]

@CGQ @dankok8

I can demonstrate how to space in another save if you so desire to see, but the gist of it is:

1. Conquer 4-5% below the dom limit with cuirs, cannons, etc. as normal

2. Get communism, adopt SP/caste/free religion/rep ASAP (preferably with golden age)

3. Get steam power for levees, AL for factories (do NOT build coal plants), then electricity for more commerce

4. Beeline plastics for TGD - this will save you thousands of hammers and dozens of health if you can build or rush it somewhere

5. Get superconductors for labs

6. IW in your highest-production city, then rocketry and Apollo in your IW city

7. Start your thrusters as soon as Apollo finishes

8. Fusion for the GE that, if you plan things right, will complete your last golden age; engines in relatively high production cities (and cockpit anywhere; that thing's pretty cheap)

9. Composites (thru satellites) for docking bay and casings

10. Genetics, and build the stasis chamber in your IW city

11. Ecology, and then life support in your 2nd highest production city

If you time things right, all the final SS parts should finish about the same time, and there should be only 75-90 turns between communism and the space win. It is possible to win space sub-t250 given a strong leader on, I'd say, roughly 50% of fractal maps on immortal.

This is gold my man! I don't want to make your play another game through.

But I was wondering... how would you reliably win space with under 10 cities on Immortal? Is it even possible on most maps to do that?