Nationalized Healthcare? Not In My Back Yard!

[Masquerouge]

Less quality usually translates to lower costs.

gotta love that. Let's see:

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php

yeah, what a great life expectancy you get for the money you spend!

 

[Gilder]

I've actually heard that the national health services of Europe are threatened with collapse due to pressures from these very same issues, with special attention paid to obesity with regard to the UK. However, none of this negates the fact that the healthy, well-disciplined people of Europe are footing the bill for those who don't take care of themselves.

As far as I am concerned, this is an effort, however unintended, to destroy natural selection and rebuke Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Let these people die if they don't want to care for themselves or pay for their own medical care.

Because having a heart and contributing to your fellow countrymen (and woman) is so wrong.

 

[.Shane.]

Our dear OP is making arguing the Peltzman effect. To sum: "hypothesized tendency of people to react to a safety regulation by increasing other risky behavior, offsetting some or all of the benefit of the regulation." Most famously used to argue against mandatory seatbelt laws. Also, I might point out, never proven, just a hypothesis.

And, here's a link to why this argument doesn't work. Leavitt's debunking of the Peltzman effect. (note: the rebuttal comes most directly from Leavitt's study that is linked therein)

 

[skadistic]

Good read on Frances great health care.

ttp://www.nchc.org/facts/France.pdf

What are the primary issues in France regarding health care?
Because of this high level of reimbursement and coverage, French health care is among the most expensive in the world. France’s health care budget is the world’s third largest, accounting for 9.8% of GNP. If spending continues at this rate, the health service may be 11 billion euros in debt by the end of 2004 and 70 billion euros in debt by the end of 2020. Part of this cost stems from alleged waste within the system; some sources suggest that patients “shop” for doctors, visiting multiple specialists until they receive the diagnosis they want. Another cause may be the overuse of prescription drugs; one fifth of the country’s health spending goes to pharmaceuticals. French patients on average are happy with their health care system; a 1999 poll found that 78.2 percent of French citizens were very or fairly satisfied with their health care system, while 21.1 percent were dissatisfied. In particular, France has avoided the long waits for elective care that have plagued Great Britain and other countries. Yet reforming the system may be difficult. France has attempted to limit spending by setting health care budget targets, but

 

[JohnRM]

No a majority of people born severly ******** can not.

What is more practical?

Set up an expansive, all-encompassing national health system to cover everyone, including the neglectful that will cost tons of money and be of less quality than private care.

-- OR --

Set up a government fund to assist only those with medical issues for which they are not responsible for and prevent them from obtaining the means to care for themselves.


I'm thinking, door number two.

 

[Masquerouge]

Oh, and this is a really interesting read, too:

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S. HCweb.pdf

It specifically says the US has the highest health care costs INCLUDING private money spent by citizens.

 

[Gilder]

gotta love that. Let's see:

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php

yeah, what a great life expectancy you get for the money you spend!

Interesting figures. Our healthcare shouldn't cost that much conmpared to everyone else.

 

[JohnRM]

Good question. I think the numbers I have include both, but please check and tell me if I'm wrong:

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm
Total Health Expenditures Per Capita, U.S. and Selected Countries, 2003

Total health expenditure as % of GDP

Does this per capita expenditure include the taxes paid by citizens for free healthcare or what? Does it take into account that Americans receive more healthcare than people in Europe?

What I mean by that is, Americans go to the Doctor twice per year. People in Europe go once per year. The cost for Americans is 100 bucks for two visits. The government pays out 60 bucks for the one visit for Europeans. That may not be the exact case, but that is what I mean. Americans receive more actual healthcare than Europeans. Whether its paid for by the government or by citizens directly, of course it costs us more. We get more of it, because we have more quality and access.

 

[Masquerouge]

Good read on Frances great health care.

ttp://www.nchc.org/facts/France.pdf

Note that French Healthcare, as pointed in your article, is still:

a. cheaper than US healthcare (on a % of GPD basis)
b. as quoted,

In particular, France has avoided the long waits for elective care that have plagued Great Britain and other countries.

c. applicable to the entire French population

But on the whole the paper is a fair assessment. I suggest you guys read it in its entirety

 

[Gilder]

Are you required to go to the doctor twice a year?

 

[dutchfire]

I've actually heard that the national health services of Europe are threatened with collapse due to pressures from these very same issues, with special attention paid to obesity with regard to the UK. However, none of this negates the fact that the healthy, well-disciplined people of Europe are footing the bill for those who don't take care of themselves.

As far as I am concerned, this is an effort, however unintended, to destroy natural selection and rebuke Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Let these people die if they don't want to care for themselves or pay for their own medical care.

Ooooh, social darwinism, sweet.

 

[skadistic]

Our health care costs more and our doctors make more. Just ask the unionized Canadians who can't keep their doctors from going to greener pastures. The higher cost also employ more doctors and nurses per patiant that leads to shorter wait times. It also pays for innovation and specialization. Many people come here every year to have the American doctors work on them. They pay more for better service.

 

[Masquerouge]

Does this per capita expenditure include the taxes paid by citizens for free healthcare or what? Does it take into account that Americans receive more healthcare than people in Europe?

Yes, it does. This paper includes ALL health-related expenses, private and public ones.

We get more of it, because we have more quality and access.

No, you don't. Health figures are better in France and the UK. And in France, everybody is covered, and has access to health care.

 

[Atlas14]

gotta love that. Let's see:

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php

yeah, what a great life expectancy you get for the money you spend!

Not to be a nitpicker, but that site doesn't have any references/sources listed for the graph, and the graph looks like something any average joe with knowledge of Microsoft Excel could produce.

 

[JohnRM]

gotta love that. Let's see:

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php

yeah, what a great life expectancy you get for the money you spend!

You are talking about a difference in life expectancy of a matter of a few years, which can be explained by any number of things. Think about the Chinese being better at Math or those people in Italy never getting heart disease. At very least there is no conclusive link between the type of medical system and life expectancy. Otherwise, why don't Cubans live forever?

 

[skadistic]

Note that French Healthcare, as pointed in your article, is still:

a. cheaper than US healthcare (on a % of GPD basis)
b. as quoted,
c. applicable to the entire French population

But on the whole the paper is a fair assessment. I suggest you guys read it in its entirety

Well if you didn't let your old folks swelter to death every summer while out on holiday your health cost would be higher.

So what if its cheaper? Tell me on average does a french worker make more or less then an American worker? ( although France isn't the greatest arguing point since almost 60% of its business is all state run)

 

[Masquerouge]

Not to be a nitpicker, but that site doesn't have any references/sources listed for the graph, and the graph looks like something any average joe with knowledge of Microsoft Excel could produce.

yet it's in line with all the other sources on the internet.

For spending:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_spe_per_per-health-spending-per-person
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=372221

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/23/3/10

For life expectancy:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_hea_yea-health-life-expectancy-healthy-years

and for the "quality" of the health care:
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=283969

 

[JohnRM]

Our health care costs more and our doctors make more. Just ask the unionized Canadians who can't keep their doctors from going to greener pastures. The higher cost also employ more doctors and nurses per patiant that leads to shorter wait times. It also pays for innovation and specialization. Many people come here every year to have the American doctors work on them. They pay more for better service.

Not to mention that you have a much higher chance of survival with cancer or other diseases, in America, than in Europe.

 

[skadistic]

Otherwise, why don't Cubans live forever?

Castro imprisons them in Che Guvera political prisons, kills them or they leave and go to Miami. Of course theres that nasty truth that Cuban health care doesn't go to the average Cubans.

 

[Masquerouge]

I have yet to see one of the supporters of the "US healthcare is the best in the world" come up with links supporting that claim.

Not to be nitpicking, but so far I'm the only one providing sources to support my claim that America has the most expensive health care in the world, and not the best healthcare in the world (albeit a very good one).

In other words, all I'm saying is that the US is currently paying WAY TOO MUCH for the results