Nationalized Healthcare? Not In My Back Yard!

[bigfatron]

Baffling...

You guys (John HSOG, etc) pay far more to have health care that gives you fewer doctors, fewer beds and fewer nurses, lets you die younger, and yet you keep crying 'It's the best in the world!' like that will make it true.

Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good prejudice now...
BFR

 

[Atlas14]

Masquerouge: Why should I believe our government is capable of managing such large sums of money and prevent drains on the system?

What about the thousands upon thousands of illegals in this country? Do they get free health care service without even directly contributing?

What do you have to say to rebuke some of this site's claims? :
http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s166/s166.html

Thanks

 

[Pokurcz]

As I have understood it The US government already pays a lot of money for health care, by paying for some hospitals and giving the insurance agencies benefits and whatnot. The amount the US Gov. pays is approximately as large as the average cost of nationalized Medicare in other OECD countries, whilst citizens in the US pay extra for their health insurance to the insurance companies.

So the citizens in fact pay twice fore something that is much cheaper abroad, and the excess gos to the insurance companies who make a lot of money.

Of coarse the insurance companies lobby for the situation not to change.

Masquerouges graphs and numbers seem to say this need not be untrue.

 

[amadeus]

yeah, what a great life expectancy you get for the money you spend!

Life expectancy should not be the only metric on which we judge the quality of health services.

There are many variables outside of the health services that affect life expectancy.

 

[skadistic]

Baffling...

You guys (John HSOG, etc) pay far more to have health care that gives you fewer doctors, fewer beds and fewer nurses, lets you die younger, and yet you keep crying 'It's the best in the world!' like that will make it true.

Let's not let the facts get in teh way fo a good prejudice now...
BFR

Facts? Fewer doctors that have shorter wait times? Fewer beds that aren't filled? Fewer nurses that work more hours? When a worker works more hours in a week you need less of them to do the same amount of workLets us die younger? Can you show me where thats a fact? Maybe I missed it but where does it say the average age of death is lower in America then elsewhere?

 

[Masquerouge]

Masquerouge: Why should I believe our government is capable of managing such large sums of money and prevent drains on the system?

That's very different from saying that Nationalized healthcare is BY DEFAULT more expensive than private health care when all data point to the contrary.

What about the thousands upon thousands of illegals in this country? Do they get free health care service without even directly contributing?

What do you have to say to rebuke some of this site's claims? :
http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s166/s166.html

Thanks

that:

a. it dates back to 1991 (!), before the major overhauls in the UK health system
b. it's mostly related to US vs Canada, and to me Canada is not an efficient nationalized health care system
c. most of its claims are not substantiated, or are substantiated on sources that are completely outdated (dating as far back as the '70s...)
d. it doesn't speak about France at all...
e. it's mixing dubious facts and tabloid materials. Look for instance about the following excerpt, in "[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]MYTH NO. 7: Countries with national health insurance maintain a high quality of health care."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Among the victims of Canada's system of health care rationing are the following well-known cases: [/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]
• Malcolm Stevens of British Columbia died of a heart attack after two months on the waiting list. Ironically, that same day his doctor bumped another patient from the surgery schedule in order to make room for Stevens.72
• Charles Coleman, a 64-year-old man, died shortly after a heart operation at Toronto's St. Michael's Hospital. Coleman's operation had been postponed 11 times.73
• Stella Lacroix's death started as a suicide. Moments after she swallowed a quart of cleaning fluid she raced to the nearest emergency room. Because the hospital wasn't equipped to perform the surgery she needed to stop the internal bleeding, the emergency room physician spent 3 1/2 hours contacting 14 hospitals in an effort to secure emergency surgery and an available intensive care bed. By the time she arrived at Ontario's York County Hospital, it was too late. She died that night.74
• In January 1990, two-year-old Joel Bondy needed urgent heart surgery that was repeatedly postponed. Alarmed at their son's deteriorating condition, his parents contacted Heartbeat Windsor, an underground railroad for Canadian heart patients, to arrange for the surgery in Detroit. Embarrassed by media coverage of Joel's situation, Canadian officials promised Joel would be moved to the top of the waiting list. After a four-hour ambulance ride to a hospital which lacked an available bed, the family had to spend the night in a hotel. The next day Joel Bondy died.75

• [/FONT]

That doesn't prove anything, and I could easily come up with the exact same emotional stories (and more recent) about the US.

 

[Urederra]

I have yet to see one of the supporters of the "US healthcare is the best in the world" come up with links supporting that claim.

They might have the best hospitals in the world, but unfortunately, they are very expensive and not everybody can afford them. So on average life expectancy is lower than many other countries (although most of those counties can be grouped in Europe) and it is way more expensive.

I agree with you on the rest of your posts in this thread.

 

[Masquerouge]

Life expectancy should not be the only metric on which we judge the quality of health services.

There are many variables outside of the health services that affect life expectancy.

Facts? Fewer doctors that have shorter wait times? Fewer beds that aren't filled? Fewer nurses that work more hours? When a worker works more hours in a week you need less of them to do the same amount of workLets us die younger? Can you show me where thats a fact? Maybe I missed it but where does it say the average age of death is lower in America then elsewhere?

Once again, guys, I'm eagerly awaiting your sources supporting your claims.

and Amadeus, in post 21 I posted this:

It's another indicator than the quality is not the best in the world.


Skad, I quoted at least three sources showing than the average age of death is lower in America than elsewhere.

http://education.yahoo.com/referenc.../le/4d.html;_ylt=ArhPICiqHxHK6zqKidkHxWLPecYF

 

[bigfatron]

Facts? Fewer doctors that have shorter wait times? Fewer beds that aren't filled? Fewer nurses that work more hours? When a worker works more hours in a week you need less of them to do the same amount of work?

So you work your medical professionals harder yet pay more to have a worse service.... sounds like a plan.

Lets us die younger? Can you show me where thats a fact? Maybe I missed it but where does it say the average age of death is lower in America then elsewhere?

That's what life expectancy is. Lower life expectancy = on average dies younger. The stats provided show it quite clearly - US life expectancy is just fractionally higher than Cuba's...

Of course there are other factors as Amadeus points out - perhaps there is some other reason why Americans on average die younger than counterparts in other nations, but healthcare has to be at least one of the main factors worth considering, don't you think?

 

[Grisu]

Why would I need sources for YOUR claims?

because all you do is make wild statements with no foundation. you claim that the american healthcare system is better than that of other western nations, but when people show you figures that indicate the opposite you claim that the difference is minor. Yes, that's the whole point, the difference really IS minor. I wouldn't be so arrogant and claim that people are better cared for medically here in Europe but the level of care certainly is on par with that in the US. And all that at a lower cost...

 

[JollyRoger]

If we adopt European-style healthcare systems that increase life expectancy, we will just have old people living longer which will further drain Social Security.

 

[Elta]

Thats not what I said now is it? I asked you a question. So? Why are ******** people my responsibility and not that of the ******** persons family. Why should I pay for some one who will never put in a fraction of what they take out? Why should I carry that burden?

Why should we pay for schools either? or give out college and bussiness grants? If someone wants to start a business or o to school they should get there act together and do it, why should they burden me? right?

 

[skadistic]

So you work your medical professionals harder yet pay more to have a worse service.... sounds like a plan.

That's what life expectancy is. Lower life expectancy = on average dies younger. The stats provided show it quite clearly - US life expectancy is just fractionally higher than Cuba's...

Of course there are other factors as Amadeus points out - perhaps there is some other reason why Americans on average die younger than counterparts in other nations, but healthcare has to be at least one of the main factors worth considering, don't you think?

Yes that 2 year difference is such a vast one. Health care is less of a factor then choice of life style. Poor eating habits contribute to a shorter life by a whopping 2 years over France. Its ok Europe is catching up.

Are the doctors worked harder or are they more efficient? All those T times doctors show up for are just being cut into by actual doctoring. If only they didn't golf we could have that massive 2 years extra.

 

[skadistic]

Why should we pay for schools either? or give out college and bussiness grants? If someone wants to start a business or o to school they should get there act together and do it, why should they burden me? right?

Way to go on not answering the question. I'll take you can't come up with a good one.

 

[Elta]

Way to go on not answering the question. I'll take you can't come up with a good one.

Why is caring for a ******** person any less worthy of your taxes than a Grant for School or Business? we would be better off caring for these people so that there family members can work than giving everyone grants wouldn't we?

Why stop there thou, why not put up toll boths on every highway so that they maintain themselves without you paying any taxes?

 

[Elta]

Way to go on not answering the question. I'll take you can't come up with a good one.

Oh I forgot I did it agian, here is one, because we elected people and they made the laws? and thats why they do it right now. Or how about because it is moraly right?

 

[skadistic]

Why should I be burdened by other peoples choices?

Your comparing it to school grants is just ridiculous. I asked a pinpoint question about why I should be burdened by with taking care of other peoples ******** children. And you have failed to answer. All you did was try to do some moral relativism wrapped in questions with out actually answering. No one is making them have that ******** baby.

 

[Elta]

Why should I be burdened by other peoples choices?

Your comparing it to school grants is just ridiculous. I asked a pinpoint question about why I should be burdened by with taking care of other peoples ******** children. And you have failed to answer. All you did was try to do some moral relativism wrapped in questions with out actually answering. No one is making them have that ******** baby.

Are you suggesting infaticide on the fetuses or the living ******** babies?

Or that they had the choice to have a child and now they have to deal with it?

Not everyone was born into familys wealthy enouf to pay for college outright, they should have never been born also eh?

 

[skadistic]

Oh I forgot I did it agian, here is one, because we elected people and they made the laws? and thats why they do it right now. Or how about because it is moraly right?

Is it morally right? I find it morally repugnant that some one else's choices which became a burden to them has been forced as a burden on me. I find it morally repulsive that I should pay for others bad decisions. Is it really morally right to force a burden on society that needn't be forced on them. Thats pretty selfish and immoral. Maybe if these people can't afford to care for their ******** children they shouldn't have them.

 

[JohnRM]

Baffling...

You guys (John HSOG, etc) pay far more to have health care that gives you fewer doctors, fewer beds and fewer nurses, lets you die younger, and yet you keep crying 'It's the best in the world!' like that will make it true.

Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good prejudice now...
BFR

You are not proving a correlation with less beds, doctors and nurses (and the difference is marginal) and the lower life expectancy. Again, if nationalized healthcare was the answer to a longer life, Cubans would live forever.