BeefBayford
Going Steady
What about map settings? I don't mind about size or type so I'll let you guys decide.
P.S. How do I link this thread in my Sig?
P.S. How do I link this thread in my Sig?
Nero04: Skipping some levels? It's training day
- Thread starter nerovats
- Start date
Here's the save. Everything is avarage: nomal map, 70% continents, normal climate, ...
Let's try and discus a lot on what to do. Especially the first 50 turns are important as lost turns multiply over time. What to do now. Where do we settle, what to research.
Let's keep following roster:
BeefBayford
Hawk Chieftain
Commando Bob
azzaman333
Woobi
Truckster (?)
Here's the save
View attachment 100388
Let's try and discus a lot on what to do. Especially the first 50 turns are important as lost turns multiply over time. What to do now. Where do we settle, what to research.
Let's keep following roster:
BeefBayford
Hawk Chieftain
Commando Bob
azzaman333
Woobi
Truckster (?)
Here's the save
View attachment 100388
BeefBayford
Going Steady
So are you not personally going to play nero, ie. are you just going to instruct us along the way? Am I first up to do the first 20/25 turns?
I'll have a look at the save shortly, and hopefully we can have some discussion on it.
I'll have a look at the save shortly, and hopefully we can have some discussion on it.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
@nerovats: Your terrain looks different from what I am used to. Have you modded your graphics?
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
I am at lunch at work and my game is at home. I am just looking at the screenshot.
Our settler is on a hill. Of the inital nine tiles, three are mountains, three more are plains, one flood plain, one flood-plain with Wheat and the hill we stand on.
On our first culture expansion we gain two mountains(N,NW and NE,NE), two hill (NE,E and E,SE), four plains, one desert, one flood plain and maybe a second flood plain (SE,SE).
I only see one bonus tile, the Flood Plain with Wheat.
If I remember correctly, all cities only produce 2 grain and 1 shield, no matter what their location. Bonuses are lost, or at least, unusable. Resources, on the other hand, are still available.
So, I am thinking that maybe we build Madrid on this hill and send our worker to the Wheat. Maybe?
Our settler is on a hill. Of the inital nine tiles, three are mountains, three more are plains, one flood plain, one flood-plain with Wheat and the hill we stand on.
On our first culture expansion we gain two mountains(N,NW and NE,NE), two hill (NE,E and E,SE), four plains, one desert, one flood plain and maybe a second flood plain (SE,SE).
I only see one bonus tile, the Flood Plain with Wheat.
If I remember correctly, all cities only produce 2 grain and 1 shield, no matter what their location. Bonuses are lost, or at least, unusable. Resources, on the other hand, are still available.
So, I am thinking that maybe we build Madrid on this hill and send our worker to the Wheat. Maybe?
Best way is to first activate extra formatting tools under options. You'll get some extra functions which will more or less speak fr itself. Bit hard to explain, but there's a add link option there.BeefBayford said:
Back on topic:
I might not have been clear about the way SG's work. BeefBayford, you are to start 20 turns after that it's 10 turns each until turns start to take long, then swich to 5 turns. Keep a log of thing you do, what you build and what strategy you use to attack. You're always free to stop after a couple of turns and ask for advice. Especially on major events this the best thing to do. Like when you get a leader, or want to start a war / make peace, it's best to consult the team.
Not all bonusses you settle on are wasted. When settling on a normal bonus grass, you'll get just 1 shield but after growth beyond 6 you'll get the extra shield back.
There's more to see in this picture then just the tiles CommandaBob described. Not only tiles are important, but also where you are on the world (north, south or center). There's a river which will give extra commerce and a defensive bonus. Also try to see what's in the fog. Added to that, what wil these tiles give us?
Does everyone know how to opperate a settler farm?
I didn't edit the grafics, I believe these are the "out of the box" grafix. Or do you mee the green and gray/blue dots. These can be activated underpreferences and reprecent the food and shields genereated by the tile.
Hawk Chieftain
Prince
If we move the settler west one square, wouldn't we have more tiles where we can produce food & gold. I know that we would lose the defensive bonus of being on a hill, but we would gain more tiles to irrigate. Can't do much with those 3 mountains.
If we did settle on the original place, what tiles would you have the worker place roads? What tiles would you mine, and what would you irrigate?
If we did settle on the original place, what tiles would you have the worker place roads? What tiles would you mine, and what would you irrigate?
BeefBayford said:
I won't play myself as there are enough players already. Otherwise it'll take to long before you're up again. I will give a lot of advise. I just might take a couple of turns when needed, but I am confident I won't need to do that and you'll make it on your own
BeefBayford
Going Steady
Moving west seems the best way. At least we will get extra shields from the plains and will still be on a river.
I'm not completely familiar with settler factories. I know it means getting settlers continuously every 5 or 6 turns, but I'm not good enough at MMing to know when there's a chance to make one.
Edit: Thanks for the Sig help nero
I'm not completely familiar with settler factories. I know it means getting settlers continuously every 5 or 6 turns, but I'm not good enough at MMing to know when there's a chance to make one.
Edit: Thanks for the Sig help nero
Why move? Every turn before you settle is a lost turn. To me we won't gain much by moving. We're in ther northern hemisphere, so most enemies will com from south. Which mee stay north of river (not a hard rule ofcourse). Staying on the hill will give 2 defensive bonuses, will not make us move, will give the free aquaduct, will give 2 more hills (apparently) after expansion. It will also have all the tiles next to rivers it will need.
A good settler farm will give a settler every 4 turns, but we don't have enough shields for that. There's an article on spotting SF's in the Strategy article forum.
What will the worker do and what should our build order be like?
A good settler farm will give a settler every 4 turns, but we don't have enough shields for that. There's an article on spotting SF's in the Strategy article forum.
What will the worker do and what should our build order be like?
BeefBayford
Going Steady
Good points made by the master, I shall settle in place. I usually go for a warrior first then maybe another unit or barracks? Is it always best to have first settler come out as the city hits size 3?
Personally the first worker action I do is to road the tile which the city is working when it is first built, in this case it will be the wheat.
Personally the first worker action I do is to road the tile which the city is working when it is first built, in this case it will be the wheat.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
@nerovats: Are you telling us that the hill is the best place to settle or are you asking us to consider the hill as a place to settle?
And,
I would like to hear what azzaman333 and Woobi and Truckster think of our opening position before we do anything. I am afraid if we move too fast they will drop out.
Also,
After we discuss our opening ideas, could we each play the first twenty turns, compare results and decide on which opening use for the game?
It is not that I disagree with starting on the hill. I just think maybe we need to analyze it a bit more to determine why it is a good choice. In fact, let me put my money where my mouth is and do just that. (Once I get home.)
And,
I would like to hear what azzaman333 and Woobi and Truckster think of our opening position before we do anything. I am afraid if we move too fast they will drop out.
Also,
After we discuss our opening ideas, could we each play the first twenty turns, compare results and decide on which opening use for the game?
It is not that I disagree with starting on the hill. I just think maybe we need to analyze it a bit more to determine why it is a good choice. In fact, let me put my money where my mouth is and do just that. (Once I get home.)
We could even let everyone pley every turnset, and compare. But will take very long game then. For the first set t's fine by me.
When roading first and irrigating after that it will postpone growth 2 size 3 1 turn.
I am not saying there's a best move or that we must do anything. However not setting in place usually is not a good idea unless you're 1 tile away from a river or something like that. It's a turn not growing, researching nor building. In this case I see only downsides.
I agree we should wait for Azzaman and Wobi to comment, Truckster hasn't even checked in yet so it appears he/she is gone. This is an important step so let's wait a day so everyone has had a chance to comment then start.
When I'm not mistaken, you only get 1 content citizen on emperor? Without action the 2nd citizen will become a clown or the city will riot, depend on your settings. Just to remind you.
When roading first and irrigating after that it will postpone growth 2 size 3 1 turn.
I am not saying there's a best move or that we must do anything. However not setting in place usually is not a good idea unless you're 1 tile away from a river or something like that. It's a turn not growing, researching nor building. In this case I see only downsides.
I agree we should wait for Azzaman and Wobi to comment, Truckster hasn't even checked in yet so it appears he/she is gone. This is an important step so let's wait a day so everyone has had a chance to comment then start.
When I'm not mistaken, you only get 1 content citizen on emperor? Without action the 2nd citizen will become a clown or the city will riot, depend on your settings. Just to remind you.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
I just checked the Info Center.
nerovats, you are not mistaken. It is only one content citzen at Emperor and Diety. Ouch!
nerovats, you are not mistaken. It is only one content citzen at Emperor and Diety. Ouch!
BeefBayford
Going Steady
Well I'm kind of set in my ways when it comes to opening moves, i think its about time I broke some bad habits.
Everyone playing the first 20 turns I think is a good idea, then we can review each and identify the pros and cons of each, which will certainly teach us what to avoid.
I'll try to play my turns tomorrow although I might not be at home for much of the day, so it will be in the evening, by which time there will hopefully be some more discussion on this thread.
Everyone playing the first 20 turns I think is a good idea, then we can review each and identify the pros and cons of each, which will certainly teach us what to avoid.
I'll try to play my turns tomorrow although I might not be at home for much of the day, so it will be in the evening, by which time there will hopefully be some more discussion on this thread.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
At first glance, especially to Chieftain-eyes, this looks like a bad start. We’ve been dropped on a hill, we have three mountains in our initial nine tiles and three plains and one flood plain. The only bright spot is that we have a Wheat bonus on a flood plain that our worker can get to and begin improving right away. And in ten turns, when we have our first culture expansion, we get more of the same, but with no bonuses anywhere.
On Chieftain, the response tends to be “Head ‘em up. Move ‘em out!” Spend several turns looking for a better place, because, well, we just don’t like to start on hills.
But Chieftain-eyes miss many things; I know mine sure have. Here are some of them, in no order of importance.
As I read back through this, I see I have just restated, sometimes poorly, what others have already said. I am not trying to steal their thunder. I just wanted to try to put all those thoughts into a point-by-point setting because where we place our first city and why we place our first city where we do is so critical to the game.
To me, this analysis (and any analysis) is a starting place for discussion, not the final word on the subject. Feel free to agree, disagree or ignore as you see fit.
On Chieftain, the response tends to be “Head ‘em up. Move ‘em out!” Spend several turns looking for a better place, because, well, we just don’t like to start on hills.
But Chieftain-eyes miss many things; I know mine sure have. Here are some of them, in no order of importance.
- The AI gets extra units when they build their first city. On Emperor level, the AI gets 4 defensive units, 2 offensive units, and 1 worker. Planning for the worst, this means that each AI has two Archers and three Spearmen on the prowl and being nosey. We have no defensive units. We do not have a lot of time to look for a better place to build.
- When we do build a defensive unit we are on a hill so we get a bonus when we defend. A 1-1-1 Warrior defends as a 1-1.5-1 Warrior. A Spearman, 1-2-1, would defend at 1-3-1.
- If we build on the hill, we improve it right away. I think the general rule is that a city tile will produce two food and one shield, regardless of the terrain it is on. The one exception to this is that if the city is built on a bonus shield tile, the bonus shield becomes available when the city grows to size 7. We can improve our surrounding terrain to that level and beyond quite easily. A hill is harder to improve than plains or flood plains. And looking at the other hill visible in the map, it appears that it does not produce food or shields until it is improved.
- We are next to a river, which means we can grow to size 12 with no aqueduct. Saves time and building and maintenance expense.
- In one turn, we have no better place to build. If we move West, we keep the river bonus, but limit that tile to 2f 1s, when we could mine it to become 1f 2s, plus commerce when we put a road on it. Once we get out of Despotism, it would become even more productive.
As I read back through this, I see I have just restated, sometimes poorly, what others have already said. I am not trying to steal their thunder. I just wanted to try to put all those thoughts into a point-by-point setting because where we place our first city and why we place our first city where we do is so critical to the game.
To me, this analysis (and any analysis) is a starting place for discussion, not the final word on the subject. Feel free to agree, disagree or ignore as you see fit.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
nerovats said:
Worker Orders
The most powerful tile is the Flood Plain + Wheat, so the worker should go there first to improve it. Even now it will produce 4 fpt, which can grow us to size 3 all by itself.
My tendency is to make roads first and then irrigate or add a mine. This may not be the best way to do things. Here, I am not sure it makes a difference, because the tile has no shields. I am thinking we want to maximize our food production first so that it is easier to re-grow after we build a worker or settler. But I could be wrong; we may want to do something different.
After this tile is improved I am not sure of what the worker needs to do next. He could stay on that side of the river, and improve the two flood plains to the SE. Or go NW across the river to begin improving that plains tile. I just do not know which would be best or even better. Would depend on where we want put city 02 as to what we would improve after the Wheat.
Build Orders
Gotta be a Warrior. First for defense, second for Military Police to help keep our hot-blooded citizens in line. We could get a Warrior in five turns if we put our first citizen to work on one of the plains.
Second thing to make: Hmm, too soon for a Worker or Settler. Has to be an Archer. It gives us a second military unit, when the AIs start with six, and this one has a larger attack factor than defend factor. Which gives us a total attack factor (empire wide) of 3. An AI's attack factor at this point is around 8 or so. At 8 to 2, the AI is four times as powerful as we are; at 8 to 3 the AI is slightly more than three times more powerful. That small difference could be enough to have the AIs fight among themselves and not with us.
By the time we complete the Archer, we could be at size 3 or maybe even 4 and then we could begin to consider building a Settler. That would drop us back a city size or so, when we would need to consider either building a scout to explore or a warrior to defend our new city. Or using a warrior to explore; it is slower but it can defend itself.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
One nice thing about Civ 3 is that it plays in a window. Another nice thing is that the standard Microsoft keyboard shortcuts still work, even in the game. Specifically, I am thinking of Alt+Tab to rotate between windows.
Which means that you can hit the Windows key to bring up the Start Menu and open Notepad to record what you do on a turn. You can take a screen-shot (Alt+Print Screen), hit the Window key, go to Accesories, open Paint and then paste the screen-shot into Paint and save it.
I have Adobe PhotoDeluxe Edition 4.0 installed. My wife got it somewhere; it came bundled with something; I do not where it came from but I do know it is legal. I am not selling it; it is a tool I use. It has a Trim feature and it has several fixed widths it will trim an image to. On my screen-shots, I trim the image to be 127 x 178 somethings, or about 2.8" x 2.0" (W x H). This makes an image is not too large when it is put into a browser.
Other digital image programs can do the same. I did not see that feature in Paint.
I would also recommend downloading CivAssist II by Ainwood. It is free, written by some members here at the forum, and is spoiler free. It does not cheat for you.
There are places on the web that will host images for free. Two of these are mentioned somewhere in the image/save/file upload instructions. One of them is PhotoBucket.com.
Which means that you can hit the Windows key to bring up the Start Menu and open Notepad to record what you do on a turn. You can take a screen-shot (Alt+Print Screen), hit the Window key, go to Accesories, open Paint and then paste the screen-shot into Paint and save it.
I have Adobe PhotoDeluxe Edition 4.0 installed. My wife got it somewhere; it came bundled with something; I do not where it came from but I do know it is legal. I am not selling it; it is a tool I use. It has a Trim feature and it has several fixed widths it will trim an image to. On my screen-shots, I trim the image to be 127 x 178 somethings, or about 2.8" x 2.0" (W x H). This makes an image is not too large when it is put into a browser.
Other digital image programs can do the same. I did not see that feature in Paint.
I would also recommend downloading CivAssist II by Ainwood. It is free, written by some members here at the forum, and is spoiler free. It does not cheat for you.
There are places on the web that will host images for free. Two of these are mentioned somewhere in the image/save/file upload instructions. One of them is PhotoBucket.com.
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